Tate Hate

[Anderson HOF]

(10-09-2015, 11:56 AM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: No, the general rule is the let it go if it is inside the 10.  Why do you think the vast majority of returners do this?

but they don;t.. the NFL has trends just like other sports.. for example the trend now is spread the field.. well the trend now is it is ok to catch it around the 10 so you don't get pinned at the 1 or 2... it used be don;t catch it around the 10 or so... not any more... I just watched the Colts do it last night in their game..

So you might disgree with the logic and I understand that but the trend of the NFL is moving towards catching it not letting it go.

[OrlandoBengal]

(10-09-2015, 12:58 PM)Anderson HOF Wrote: but they don;t.. the NFL has trends just like other sports.. for example the trend now is spread the field.. well the trend now is it is ok to catch it around the 10 so you don't get pinned at the 1 or 2... it used be don;t catch it around the 10 or so... not any more... I just watched the Colts do it last night in their game..

So you might disgree with the logic and I understand that but the trend of the NFL is moving towards catching it not letting it go.

I watch a lot of other games and I don't see returners consistently catch the ball inside the 10.  I guess I'll start paying better attention.

[type_stripe]

luckily he hasnt been like Kyle Williams in crunchtime

Tate has great hands. His return featres are because of usually smart and secure plays.

[grampahol]

He doesn't put the ball on the ground often, end/stop. They try guys all the time in practice and preseason, but who almost never coughs up the ball on the 10? Brandon Tate.
If someone is back there dropping punts and kickoffs guess who usually gets the ball! You guessed it. The other team.
Andy can't drive us downfield to score if the other side has the ball ...bottom line.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-09-2015, 01:22 AM)Psycholomonkey Wrote: Hate is overstating it but the criticism isn't without rational basis. I've been one of his detractors, though always admitting he is a better receiver than return man.  It is mostly because his mediocrity keeps us from displaying better talent.  Other guys perform better with the same return unit but he still gets the snaps.  He is resting more on his reputation than recent performance, and for me and other over-achiever types, we know we can do better and don't want to settle for middling performance.  Don't tell me how his average returns compare to others in the league, that comparison is as much a comparison of special teams players, coaches, and execution of the unit as a whole, as it is about the guy holding the ball.  The real question is if he makes the most of the opportunities given, and that one is impossible to measure objectively.  To my eyes it seems he does less with the opportunities than others might.  Also I think his running style is part of the "problem", he is just boring to watch.  That isn't a fair way to judge, and I may be guilty of that.  

If Adam Jones is one of the best ever, he should be on the field instead.  Right?

Well this atleast has some rationality to it and i mostly agree. Tate is not a great Returner and is a better receiver.

The numbers are deceiving with Tate cause we have very good blockers on ST's a good ST coach and this helps him.

He has great hands as Thundercloud here mentions...

(10-09-2015, 03:23 AM)Thundercloud Wrote: I understand all the questions about Tate being on the roster, but you've got to give him one thing ... he's got great hands.  I've heard it said many times that the coaches are very enamored of his ability to catch the football.  His great play Sunday showed it again, plus he had the presence of mind to get it into the end zone.

Pac is great to have back there sometimes because of his much greater home run threat, but then again, we shouldn't be risking him all the time because of his value to the regular defense.  And anyway, give Tate a little love.  The man made a big play!

Bottom line with me: used wisely, this combination is pretty damn good.

All true, have to give Tate a little love for that great catch. Clutch.

BTW, i like Tate as a backup Receiver and backup Returner the most cause i want to see what Mario Alford can do some time down the road.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

I voted "maybe so" in the poll BTW.

[Aquapod770]

No. He deserves a lot of it. One play doesn't change that. (Although admittedly it was a very good play)

[Anderson HOF]

(10-09-2015, 02:39 PM)Aquapod770 Wrote: No. He deserves a lot of it. One play doesn't change that. (Although admittedly it was a very good play)

alot of love.. yes.. hate no.. top ten in punt and kickoff returns most years.. has not lost a fumble since like 2013.

[djs7685]

If you look at all active players with at least 75 returns, Tate ranks...

20th in kick return yards per return. 32 players qualify right now.
20th (tied with 3 others) in punt return yards per return. 38 players qualify right now.

His New England kick return stats are also included, which is where he had his 2nd best average of his career. In Cincinnati, Tate has been alright, but not great. A lot of people want that dynamic returner that can make some moves and create something out of seemingly nothing. Tate also isn't the guy that's going to quickly hit the small gaps and burn the coverage team that way very often either. He's not the worst return man in the league, but he's just a guy that's going to have a bunch of average returns with the occasional 40 or so yarder that puts us in a good spot. He's not the guy that you get overly excited about when he steps on the field.

I don't think it's unreasonable that people would like to see an upgrade there, but Tate does an alright job being able to backup the outside receiver spot and return kicks at a solid rate. It's just another thread and another handful of posts that proves that some people can't figure out the difference between "hate" and criticism. There's a famous line on these boards that goes something like "*insert player name* is better than he gets credit for", and that's usually only true if you tune out every objective poster and only pay attention to the small handful of extremists.

[Slappy from New Haven]

(10-09-2015, 12:15 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Why are the only options being pinned inside the 5 or having the ball at the 10?

Someone could just as easily say "I'd rather have the ball at the 20 than at the 10", right?

We don't really know what any/many of the players are TOLD to do on a specific play, we just see what else happens around the league and then put the blame wherever we decide it should go on each separate instance. Nobody on here knows for 100% fact when Hue or Marvin deserve the blame for a mistake that a player gets criticized for, so should we just stop discussing football on here for that reason?

Nothing to discuss. Highly paid proffesional coaches kept him on the roster. And we as group look silly

[djs7685]

(10-09-2015, 10:50 PM)Slappy from New Haven Wrote: Nothing to discuss. Highly paid proffesional coaches kept him on the roster. And we as group look silly

Welp, looks like it's time to shut down the boards!

Everything the coaches do is 100% right and there's nothing to discuss regarding their decisions. No need for a message board anymore.

[BengalChris]

(10-09-2015, 12:57 AM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: Hey guys, been a while since I've posted.  How about this season?!?  Bengals looking pretty sharp at the moment, but there's never a shortage of things to ***** about so I figured I'd come back and squawk at you guys  

Onto the man of the hour-BRANDON TATE!  Why have so many called for his head so frequently in the past?  Why is it that just because Adam Jones(statistically one of the best return men in NFL history) is more explosive that Tate is hot trash?  Why is it that people used to LOOOOOVE them some Dez Briscoe, Ryan Whalen, Cobi Hamilton, and Armon Binns but despise Tate?  What gives?  Has he finally redeemed himself in some fans' eyes with making a great catch against the Chiefs?

I answered no. Even though he made a great play in last week's game, Tate's primary role is as a returner and he's become the backup returner.

I'm looking for the Bengals to bring in another returner this off season, probably through the draft.

[reuben.ahmed]

He's not a good KR. He's just a body to get hit.

[*Synric*]

The Tate "hate" has nothing to do with his special teams contributions and everything to do with his ability to play WR. In 2014 Brandon Tate took 484 snaps around 45% of the the entire seasons snap count and caught only 17 Balls on only 26 targets. Most fans were looking for a return guy that could also contribute regularly on offense.

Great diving catch though no one ever said he wasn't athletic.

[Johnny Cupcakes]

(10-10-2015, 12:15 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Welp, looks like it's time to shut down the boards!

Everything the coaches do is 100% right and there's nothing to discuss regarding their decisions. No need for a message board anymore.

I've always hated the "but the coaches are paid to do this" argument.  It does indeed make the discussions pointless if you feel that the coaching staff is infallible.

I'm also sure that I've seen everyone that says this criticize a coaching decision here and there, making their statement super pointless.

[type_stripe]

(10-10-2015, 11:58 AM)reuben.ahmed Wrote: He's not a good KR. He's just a body to get hit.

7 seasons in the league: 

• 2009- only used for 4 returns, averaged over 25 yards a return
• top 15 returner in total yards in 2010, top 10 in average yards per return
• top 10 returner in yards between 2011 and 2013; top 15-20 in average yards per return (2011 & 2012), top 10 in 2013
• 2014 ranked 29th but only got 18 returns, but Pacman was top 10 (1st in average yards per return)
• 2015 currently in progress. (Pacman 21st in total yards)
  

He's a good KR with one off season. But since, Pacman has been taking the reps and that's not a bad option either, though it would probably be best to try out some of the younger guys too.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(10-09-2015, 03:39 PM)djs7685 Wrote: If you look at all active players with at least 75 returns, Tate ranks...

20th in kick return yards per return. 32 players qualify right now.
20th (tied with 3 others) in punt return yards per return. 38 players qualify right now.

His New England kick return stats are also included, which is where he had his 2nd best average of his career. In Cincinnati, Tate has been alright, but not great. A lot of people want that dynamic returner that can make some moves and create something out of seemingly nothing. Tate also isn't the guy that's going to quickly hit the small gaps and burn the coverage team that way very often either. He's not the worst return man in the league, but he's just a guy that's going to have a bunch of average returns with the occasional 40 or so yarder that puts us in a good spot. He's not the guy that you get overly excited about when he steps on the field.

I don't think it's unreasonable that people would like to see an upgrade there, but Tate does an alright job being able to backup the outside receiver spot and return kicks at a solid rate. It's just another thread and another handful of posts that proves that some people can't figure out the difference between "hate" and criticism. There's a famous line on these boards that goes something like "*insert player name* is better than he gets credit for", and that's usually only true if you tune out every objective poster and only pay attention to the small handful of extremists.

It's the fact they have made almost 0 effort to get better from a mediocre at best player. 
That is what drives people nuts. 
A 7th rounder on Alford is the biggest effort this team has made at getting better there. 


At some point you expect the team to want to upgrade...I mean, it isn't like replacing a LT or QB....it's a 5th WR and KR....

[BengalChris]

(10-10-2015, 01:33 PM)type_stripe Wrote: 7 seasons in the league: 

• 2009- only used for 4 returns, averaged over 25 yards a return
• top 15 returner in total yards in 2010, top 10 in average yards per return
• top 10 returner in yards between 2011 and 2013; top 15-20 in average yards per return (2011 & 2012), top 10 in 2013
• 2014 ranked 29th but only got 18 returns, but Pacman was top 10 (1st in average yards per return)
• 2015 currently in progress. (Pacman 21st in total yards)
  

He's a good KR with one off season. But since, Pacman has been taking the reps and that's not a bad option either, though it would probably be best to try out some of the younger guys too.

When you take a KO 8 yards deep in the endzone and return it to the 16, you get 24 return yards. Looks great in the individual return stats, but it's a bad play and costs the team 4 yards. Tate did that a lot last year and the boards lit up about it. 

[Utts]

(10-09-2015, 01:16 AM)Anderson HOF Wrote: Totally disagree, has made many more smart plays than bad on all special teams,  i love adam jones on returns but will take Tate all day for crucial catch on punt returns.

I bet Elon Musk would make lots of smart plays on ST too, but that wouldn't make him a good returner.

[fredtoast]

(10-09-2015, 03:39 PM)djs7685 Wrote: There's a famous line on these boards that goes something like "*insert player name* is better than he gets credit for", and that's usually only true if you tune out every objective poster and only pay attention to the small handful of extremists.

That is why I always say that a player is better than many people here give him credit for.