This team is starting to remind of the 2000s Bengals

[*ochocincos*]

It's easy to be hyped about a brand new QB, especially one who was drafted 1st overall, won the Heisman and National Championship, and broke records.

However, as you said, it will still take time for the team to gel.
I still believe the team is 2-3 good OL away from being a true contender, as I simply do not have confidence in whoever plays RG or RT.
If the OL can get solidified, you likely are looking at a team similar to 2005.

Burrow = Palmer
Mixon = Rudi
AJ = Chad
Boyd = Housh
Ross/Tate = Henry

[KillerGoose]

(08-19-2020, 10:46 AM)ochocincos Wrote: It's easy to be hyped about a brand new QB, especially one who was drafted 1st overall, won the Heisman and National Championship, and broke records.

However, as you said, it will still take time for the team to gel.
I still believe the team is 2-3 good OL away from being a true contender, as I simply do not have confidence in whoever plays RG or RT.
If the OL can get solidified, you likely are looking at a team similar to 2005.

Burrow = Palmer
Mixon = Rudi
AJ = Chad
Boyd = Housh
Ross/Tate = Henry

Boy, that was a fun time. I can't believe it was that long ago already. That excitement in 2005 was something that I am not sure has been experienced since.

[WestCoastBengalsFan]

(08-19-2020, 10:10 AM)PDub80 Wrote: In order order to make relevant points, if I reply to someone who quoted someone else I go back and read the whole chain of conversation to get the gist of the discussion before chiming in. Perhaps you should start practicing that, too. You are the perfect example of where society is at today: You only wish to be heard and have no interest in actually listening to anyone else. IMO, YOU, virtually exclusively, are why this board has been dying on the vine and losing participating members.

Before going further, YES, I understand all NFL teams have sketchy personnel somewhere in their ORG. I didn't say nor did I even infer that they didn't.

On to your "points", of which - even if you're right (spoiler alert: you're not), you're wrong.....

- The person I was replying to was blaming Mike Brown for bringing in low character guys. As a counterpoint, I was pointing out that a lot more high character guys have been brought in via FA or the draft since Marvin left and virtually NO questionable chars have even been worked out, let alone signed or drafted (so far). So, to solely blame Mike Brown and not mention Marvin (who had a huge influence in the org) for rough character signings/draft picks (issues from mostly 10+ years ago, BTW) doesn't 100% make sense given the new coaching staff's FAs & drafts.

He also, in reply to me, wanted to blame Mike Brown for the past several losing seasons. Which is fair as long as he also gets credit for the winning seasons as well. To ignore one and not the other is unfair and illogical.

- Here's where I directly address your list of a whopping 3 guys out of, what(?), over 100?... and 2 of which were brought in during Marvin's time. So.... only 1 guy you brought up was even relevant to the conversation. Regardless, your point is stupid (shocker), so I'll crap on all 3 of your examples. Good thing I'm not a lawyer in Butt-Hump, TN, or wherever you dwell. You'd starve.

- When Jim Turner was hired by the Bengals I googled the court case regarding his "issues" and read through every single string of txt message conversations and instances submitted in the case between Jonathan Martin & the NFL/Dolphins/Incognito/Turner. I spent a lot of time on it and came to the conclusion that the entire thing was BS by Martin, who has some deep personal issues. If you read through the entirety of that stuff, Martin comes across as a nut job for taking up the position that he was harassed as he alleged. Not even close.

As someone who grew up and spent over half of my life playing an extremely competitive and extremely stressful sport - coached by professional coaches from both NCAA D1 college, MLS coaches and GMs, semi-professional coaches, and Olympics Development coaches, I can understand when someone with a different background or coaching style conflicts with what you're used to. Or that a guy is crass, "old school", not PC, brutally honest, let's boys be boys and work stuff out between them, pushes buttons, etc etc. Because of his deep rooted, HIDDEN, mental issues Jonathan Martin came across as soft. That's not going to sit well with Jim Turner, who seemed to want to toughen the kid up mentally or, understandably, get him out of there.

If you've never been in those environments, I understand you clutching at your pearls over that stuff, but it happens all the time and players/coaches work it out. But, for some reason, in the case of Jim Turner, someone couldn't work it out. I wonder why???? Oh, wait! Here's why.....

FOR THE RECORD: Jonathan Martin, post NFL drama/career, was proven to have severe mental problems and was arrested for threatening to shoot up a school. He's not all there and it comes across very clearly when you read the txts submitted in that case vs what Martin alleged. So, you can keep calling Jim Turner "low character", but that doesn't hold much water given how things played out in the long run.

FOR THE RECORD: Richie Incognito only sent/left him nasty, threatening voice mails and txts AFTER Martin made his BS, LYING allegations against him, Turner, the Dolphins. If you read the txts, it's clear as day Martin is nuts.

Do I love everything about Jim Turner? Well, frankly, I don't care. The guys playing for him on the Bengals seem to like him just fine. So, to me, that's where the buck stops with that. Who cares about Texas A&M (who hired him TWICE, BTW)?

Zac Taylor also comes across as a super high character guy and he hired him after working with him previously. That's enough for me and should be enough for your salty, Marvin/Andy loving self.

- Joe Mixon was brought in during Marvin's time here, not the current coaching staff... which, as I pointed out earlier - had you been paying attention, was my compare and contrast in the conversation with the other guy who blamed Mike Brown for a "low character" org.

Regardless, Joe Mixon has been an outstanding, enthusiastic Bengal and an A+ pro off the field. Plus, he's an awesome player. For you to call him an "Attention *****" is weak, petty, and makes little sense... especially given the context of the discussion. 

- Bobby Heart is your only, possible saving grace point, but that depends on how sensitive you are and how you look at his resigning AFTER Taylor got here. Because, again - based on the discussion - Bobby Heart was signed while MARVIN was here and re-signed while Taylor was here. If he was an issue, I don't see this coaching staff or org resigning him..... WHICH WAS MY POINT TO THE GUY I WAS RESPONDING TO: THE BENGALS ARE CLEARLY ONLY LOOKING FOR HIGH CHARACTER GUYS SINCE TAYLOR GOT HERE. MARVIN LEFT AND THAT IS A MAJOR, SUPER OBVIOUS CHANGE. TO CONTINUE TO BLAME MIKE BROWN FOR THE LOW CHARACTER SIGNINGS DOESN'T MAKE SENSE!!!!!

I don't care what Bobby Heart's political/religious views are, or his views on masks. Who freaking cares? I also don't care about your TMZ like report on rumors he was "a locker room cancer" on the Giants. Who... F'ing.... Cares about the Giants? If that's where we're at in judging the character of the Bengals locker room, they're basically perfect. To cry about a guy who was last in the Giants locker room 3 1/2 years a go is the most cucked up thing I've ever read on here. My goodness! Snuggles, the Charmin Bear thinks you're too soft.

Definitely agree with Fred ruining this board. I only have two people on ignore, Fred and some guy that was trolling every thread saying Covid was a hoax. Even though I have Fred on ignore I still see his posts ALL the time because he's constantly arguing some nonsense in nearly EVERY thread and people are quoting him to tell him to stop being a argumentative for sake of doing it. I don't come to this board nearly as much as I'd like because of the crazy arguments that guy causes and derails a ton of the threads created here. This place has potential but it's not worth the effort when you know any rational discussion has a great chance of getting derailed. My 2 cents.

[samhain]

The process is ongoing. Much still needs to be sorted out, as it did in 2003. Is AJ going to stay healthy? Can Higgins or Ross do enough to make it not matter?

I think the right side of the line needs to be settled before the team is solidified.

There is real reason for hope, no doubt. The really rough part, ie the lopping off of dead weight is almost done. By next year, a new generation of Bengal football will be in full swing.

[*jason*]

(08-19-2020, 10:10 AM)PDub80 Wrote: In order order to make relevant points, if I reply to someone who quoted someone else I go back and read the whole chain of conversation to get the gist of the discussion before chiming in. Perhaps you should start practicing that, too. You are the perfect example of where society is at today: You only wish to be heard and have no interest in actually listening to anyone else. IMO, YOU, virtually exclusively, are why this board has been dying on the vine and losing participating members.

Before going further, YES, I understand all NFL teams have sketchy personnel somewhere in their ORG. I didn't say nor did I even infer that they didn't.

On to your "points", of which - even if you're right (spoiler alert: you're not), you're wrong.....

- The person I was replying to was blaming Mike Brown for bringing in low character guys. As a counterpoint, I was pointing out that a lot more high character guys have been brought in via FA or the draft since Marvin left and virtually NO questionable chars have even been worked out, let alone signed or drafted (so far). So, to solely blame Mike Brown and not mention Marvin (who had a huge influence in the org) for rough character signings/draft picks (issues from mostly 10+ years ago, BTW) doesn't 100% make sense given the new coaching staff's FAs & drafts.

He also, in reply to me, wanted to blame Mike Brown for the past several losing seasons. Which is fair as long as he also gets credit for the winning seasons as well. To ignore one and not the other is unfair and illogical.

- Here's where I directly address your list of a whopping 3 guys out of, what(?), over 100?... and 2 of which were brought in during Marvin's time. So.... only 1 guy you brought up was even relevant to the conversation. Regardless, your point is stupid (shocker), so I'll crap on all 3 of your examples. Good thing I'm not a lawyer in Butt-Hump, TN, or wherever you dwell. You'd starve.

- When Jim Turner was hired by the Bengals I googled the court case regarding his "issues" and read through every single string of txt message conversations and instances submitted in the case between Jonathan Martin & the NFL/Dolphins/Incognito/Turner. I spent a lot of time on it and came to the conclusion that the entire thing was BS by Martin, who has some deep personal issues. If you read through the entirety of that stuff, Martin comes across as a nut job for taking up the position that he was harassed as he alleged. Not even close.

As someone who grew up and spent over half of my life playing an extremely competitive and extremely stressful sport - coached by professional coaches from both NCAA D1 college, MLS coaches and GMs, semi-professional coaches, and Olympics Development coaches, I can understand when someone with a different background or coaching style conflicts with what you're used to. Or that a guy is crass, "old school", not PC, brutally honest, let's boys be boys and work stuff out between them, pushes buttons, etc etc. Because of his deep rooted, HIDDEN, mental issues Jonathan Martin came across as soft. That's not going to sit well with Jim Turner, who seemed to want to toughen the kid up mentally or, understandably, get him out of there.

If you've never been in those environments, I understand you clutching at your pearls over that stuff, but it happens all the time and players/coaches work it out. But, for some reason, in the case of Jim Turner, someone couldn't work it out. I wonder why???? Oh, wait! Here's why.....

FOR THE RECORD: Jonathan Martin, post NFL drama/career, was proven to have severe mental problems and was arrested for threatening to shoot up a school. He's not all there and it comes across very clearly when you read the txts submitted in that case vs what Martin alleged. So, you can keep calling Jim Turner "low character", but that doesn't hold much water given how things played out in the long run.

FOR THE RECORD: Richie Incognito only sent/left him nasty, threatening voice mails and txts AFTER Martin made his BS, LYING allegations against him, Turner, the Dolphins. If you read the txts, it's clear as day Martin is nuts.

Do I love everything about Jim Turner? Well, frankly, I don't care. The guys playing for him on the Bengals seem to like him just fine. So, to me, that's where the buck stops with that. Who cares about Texas A&M (who hired him TWICE, BTW)?

Zac Taylor also comes across as a super high character guy and he hired him after working with him previously. That's enough for me and should be enough for your salty, Marvin/Andy loving self.

- Joe Mixon was brought in during Marvin's time here, not the current coaching staff... which, as I pointed out earlier - had you been paying attention, was my compare and contrast in the conversation with the other guy who blamed Mike Brown for a "low character" org.

Regardless, Joe Mixon has been an outstanding, enthusiastic Bengal and an A+ pro off the field. Plus, he's an awesome player. For you to call him an "Attention *****" is weak, petty, and makes little sense... especially given the context of the discussion. 

- Bobby Heart is your only, possible saving grace point, but that depends on how sensitive you are and how you look at his resigning AFTER Taylor got here. Because, again - based on the discussion - Bobby Heart was signed while MARVIN was here and re-signed while Taylor was here. If he was an issue, I don't see this coaching staff or org resigning him..... WHICH WAS MY POINT TO THE GUY I WAS RESPONDING TO: THE BENGALS ARE CLEARLY ONLY LOOKING FOR HIGH CHARACTER GUYS SINCE TAYLOR GOT HERE. MARVIN LEFT AND THAT IS A MAJOR, SUPER OBVIOUS CHANGE. TO CONTINUE TO BLAME MIKE BROWN FOR THE LOW CHARACTER SIGNINGS DOESN'T MAKE SENSE!!!!!

I don't care what Bobby Heart's political/religious views are, or his views on masks. Who freaking cares? I also don't care about your TMZ like report on rumors he was "a locker room cancer" on the Giants. Who... F'ing.... Cares about the Giants? If that's where we're at in judging the character of the Bengals locker room, they're basically perfect. To cry about a guy who was last in the Giants locker room 3 1/2 years a go is the most cucked up thing I've ever read on here. My goodness! Snuggles, the Charmin Bear thinks you're too soft.

While I agree with a lot of this ( I remember hearing of text messages from Incognito to Martin saying hey man... You need to set the record straight on this... They're really coming after me) Turner came with a shitty reputation, and unless I'm missing something (I may well be) doesn't have a super impressive resume.

[PDub80]

(08-24-2020, 01:22 AM)jason Wrote: While I agree with a lot of this ( I remember hearing of text messages from Incognito to Martin saying hey man... You need to set the record straight on this... They're really coming after me) Turner came with a shitty reputation, and unless I'm missing something (I may well be) doesn't have a super impressive resume.

Ok, YES, great comment and thing to bring up. So, I was not kidding when I said I read literally the ENTIRE chain of txt conversations submitted as evidence from that case. If you just took what Incognito said in a snippet quote like what you referenced it looks like Incognito is asking Martin to repent as a favor or to bail him out. Only, he really wasn't. Not in that kind of way....

So, in the conversations between Incognito & Martin, they chatted normal guy stuff. Incognito invited him to events, to hang out, asked how he was, etc. Was nice and cool to him - virtually all the time. Teased him.... but in a way normal guys and jocks do. Nothing... NOTHING like in the way Martin was alleging and nothing super bully about it if you read everything to understand the way they txt and communicated. The conversations were plain and normal leading up to the exact moment (you can tell in the txts when that was by the comment you referenced) Martin went and made up these allegations against Incognito, Turner, and the Dolphins to the press and the NFL. So, when Incognito said that, it was directly after he was ambushed with all of Martin's claims (which were clearly invented out of thin air by Martin if you read the txts). So, Incognito was basically still being cool and asking him like "Hey, come on man, be honest and tell them the truth". Which, Martin never did and it blew up because Martin's not mentally stable. Turner and Incognito ended up taking the fall in a PR move by the NFL.

As far as Turner goes, he is definitely... DEFINITELY from an old school, hard nosed, Heartbreak Ridge, Full Metal Jacket Drill Sgt. era. He treated Martin like his Private Pile... to a degree. He wanted to toughen him up to bring out Martin's best (that's how Turner would view it, I would characterize). But, that's the NFL, right? Like, do the job or get cut. So, Turner, instead of ignoring Martin, letting him fail on his own, and cutting him, he asked a leader on the team, Incognito, to toughen him up to see what he's made of and bring out the best in him. Obviously, NOT the right approach with Private Pile (Martin). But, it would be with 99% of the other players there.

IMO, having been in environments like that, most high level and hard working players in a lot of team sports appreciate (ASSISTANT/POSITIONAL) coaches like Turner to a degree. Those guys don't let people be lazy bums. As a head coach, I don't think it works. But, especially team sports where guys have to work together, a lower ranking "bad cop" is not a bad thing. If one guy is being a lazy, weak $#% slouch, they all suffer during games. So, I get what Turner was doing. Did Turner actually hate Martin at the time this all went down and want him to fail or be bullied? Probably not. I doubt it. There's no benefit to Turner if Martin fails (hell, Jonathan Martin was a 2nd round pick! You KNOW Turner interviewed him, studied him, and wanted him on the team). I think Turner did what he thought was right and try to get Martin to push past his mental blocks and reach his potential by toughening him up. Nobody knew Martin was nuts at the time, so, it didn't work.

Turner's just from a different era and Martin is (not kidding) mentally unstable, as evidenced by his post career arrests and episodes. Personally, I don't mind that kind of coach. I 100% get it. But, times change and the style of the coaching has to change. We'll see if Turner can turn water into wine this year or not. I think that's unfair to the coaches. I think the Bengals need to provide him with more grapes (good players) before expecting wine.

[fredtoast]

(08-24-2020, 10:28 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Ok, YES, great comment and thing to bring up. So, I was not kidding when I said I read literally the ENTIRE chain of txt conversations submitted as evidence from that case. If you just took what Incognito said in a snippet quote like what you referenced it looks like Incognito is asking Martin to repent as a favor or to bail him out. Only, he really wasn't. Not in that kind of way....

So, in the conversations between Incognito & Martin, they chatted normal guy stuff. Incognito invited him to events, to hang out, asked how he was, etc. Was nice and cool to him - virtually all the time. Teased him.... but in a way normal guys and jocks do. Nothing... NOTHING like in the way Martin was alleging and nothing super bully about it if you read everything to understand the way they txt and communicated. The conversations were plain and normal leading up to the exact moment (you can tell in the txts when that was by the comment you referenced) Martin went and made up these allegations against Incognito, Turner, and the Dolphins to the press and the NFL. So, when Incognito said that, it was directly after he was ambushed with all of Martin's claims (which were clearly invented out of thin air by Martin if you read the txts). So, Incognito was basically still being cool and asking him like "Hey, come on man, be honest and tell them the truth". Which, Martin never did and it blew up because Martin's not mentally stable. Turner and Incognito ended up taking the fall in a PR move by the NFL.

Anyone who talks about Martin having mental health issues without mentioning the stuff Incognito has done can not be trusted to give an abiased opinion on what happened.  Anyone interested in the truth can read this

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/10455447/miami-dolphins-bullying-report-released-richie-incognito-others-responsible-harassment


Martin was not even the only victim.

[PDub80]

(08-24-2020, 01:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Anyone interested in the truth read this

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/10455447/miami-dolphins-bullying-report-released-richie-incognito-others-responsible-harassment
Martin was not even the only victim.

I've read that as well. Guys tease and taunt each other about a variety of "inappropriate" subjects all the time including race, sexuality, etc. I can only imagine the jokes in an NFL locker room. Hell, in a high school sport I coached an Asian player on the team told me himself to call him by his nickname, "Rice". I refused, of course, and wouldn't let that continue on my fields, but he is a kid.

But as for grown men screwing with each other in a locker room buddy setting? All of those situations are different. Jonathan Martin lied about the bulk of his "issues" and when caught chose to blow the other stuff out of proportion to cover his ass.

As far as the truth.... The article had Martin's agent claiming, quote, "He's a great man". Uhhhhh, no. He's since threatened to shoot up a school.

[fredtoast]

(08-24-2020, 01:29 PM)PDub80 Wrote: As far as the truth.... The article had Martin's agent claiming, quote, "He's a great man". Uhhhhh, no. He's since threatened to shoot up a school.

Everyone see what I mean about brining up Martin's off-field issues and ignoring Incognito's?

I am not asking anyone to believe Martin's attorney.  Just read the conclusions from the Wells report.  He was not biased for either side.

[JSR18]

Talking about the '05 team and confidence, you knew they would be good for multiple picks every Sunday.

If this defense can have that kind of swagger and duplicate those results....LookTFO...

[fredtoast]

(08-24-2020, 02:41 PM)JSR18 Wrote:  Talking about the '05 team and confidence, you knew they would be good for multiple picks every Sunday.

If this defense can have that kind of swagger and duplicate those results....LookTFO...

The '05 defense was bad.  22nd in points allowed and 28th in yards.

That would be an improvement over the last two seasons, but I want something better than that.

[Sled21]

The sun is shining.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(08-24-2020, 03:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The '05 defense was bad.  22nd in points allowed and 28th in yards.

That would be an improvement over the last two seasons, but I want something better than that.

Where were they in turnovers though?

[Geno_Can_Dunk]

I think everybody needs to be prepared for the fact that many of these feel good training camp stories will end up not amounting to anything. What's-his-face last year was the darling Wr of camp and turned out to be nothing. A lot of it comes from beat reporters who are under pressure to deliver some sort of headline, and frankly don't always know what they're looking at in a football sense. Or they're repeating what coaches said behind the scenes, and maybe those coaches want to defend a certain draft pick, or whatever. My point is we still really know nothing until the season starts.

[fredtoast]

(08-24-2020, 03:44 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Where were they in turnovers though?

Forcing a lot of turnovers is the main reason they were 22nd in points allowed while being 28th in yards allowed.

But 22nd in points allowed is still bad.

[Geno_Can_Dunk]

As for Fred supposedly ruining this board, I mean get a grip people. He's a bit of a needler, but there are worse things in life, both IRL and on the internet. Football message boards tend to be salty places, might as well get used to it and go back to real life if it gets on your nerves.

At least he typically backs up his point (a straw man of your point though it may be) with evidence. That's better than many folks around here who make crap up and either don't understand football or don't follow the NFL outside of the Bengals.

It's clear to me that some people like to use this board to cheerlead for the Bengals (when things are going well), or to gripe about them (when things aren't going well). Others like to use this board for debate, and that's the group Fred falls into (and me, which might be why i'm cautiously defending him here). Reminds me of this guy I work with - a major bullshitter type - who likes to launch into a debate when you least expect it. Used to be really annoying, until I realized he just likes debating and doesn't realize that not everybody is in the mood for it (like on a Tuesday morning by the water cooler).

[Geno_Can_Dunk]

(08-24-2020, 04:30 PM)Geno_Can_Dunk Wrote: As for Fred supposedly ruining this board, I mean get a grip people. He's a bit of a needler, but there are worse things in life, both IRL and on the internet. Football message boards tend to be salty places, might as well get used to it and go back to real life if it gets on your nerves.

At least he typically backs up his point (a straw man of your point though it may be) with evidence. That's better than many folks around here who make crap up and either don't understand football or don't follow the NFL outside of the Bengals.

It's clear to me that some people like to use this board to cheerlead for the Bengals (when things are going well), or to gripe about them (when things aren't going well). Others like to use this board for debate, and that's the group Fred falls into (and me, which might be why i'm cautiously defending him here). Reminds me of this guy I work with - a major bullshitter type - who likes to launch into a debate when you least expect it. Used to be really annoying, until I realized he just likes debating and doesn't realize that not everybody is in the mood for it (like on a Tuesday morning by the water cooler).

Thought of another way of putting this:

It's like there's Group A people, for whom this is a big online Bengals tailgate in the offseason. And then there's Group B people, for whom this is a forum for friendly debate so as to dive deeper into our shared passion, the Bengals.

And when Group A and Group B get together, they rub each other the wrong way. For the Group A folks, it's as if they're hanging out at a tailgate, and along comes Group B and instead of cracking a beer and playing some cornhole, they whip out a spreadsheet to correct you on something they think you said. 

Hence, conflict. 

[JSR18]

Solid points and I can relate. Maybe you could help your new found friend figure out which group is which...just askin'...

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