HIGGINS and TATE Cheers

[Luvnit2]

(09-28-2020, 12:15 PM)Au165 Wrote: Higgins dropped a big catch on that last drive, that one hurt. Love what the rookie did, but you have to catch that pass. He definelty has a solid future going forward with Joe.

If that would have been Ross drop, he would bet getting tarred and feathered by his haters.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-28-2020, 12:44 PM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: and Ross has given us YAC? 

Obviously not this year.

But last year, Ross had more than Tate with double the average per target.

Yards After Catch:
Ross - 184 (3.3 per target) - https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/john-ross/#!#past-year
Tate - 124 (1.5 per target) - https://www.playerprofiler.com/nfl/auden-tate/

Ross also had a higher YAC average than Boyd last year, who had 2.5 per target.

[Au165]

(09-28-2020, 12:40 PM)ochocincos Wrote: He's not? He's one of the quickest players in the league, not just long speed. Problem is he's not catching the ball to be able to show that very much.

Let me rephrase my statement, as there is some truth to yours...
Someone with Ross's speed SHOULD open up the field more for others.
And while Burrow is completing passes fine in the short and intermediate, they aren't getting a ton of YAC (from what I recall seeing anyway). With a more stretched field, they should have more room to run.

Or maybe I just haven't watched the games close enough to notice the YAC.

No, he isn't. The plays he has caught the ball he has done little in terms of making anyone miss. Saying he is one of the "quickest in the league" is a pure guess at this point because he hasn't shown it and all speed-related claims are based on a 40 time now 4 years ago.

As for the claim that he would open it up for YAC, that isn't really true either. He played the first two games and we didn't have a bunch of YAC then. The theory is flawed because where the assisting tacklers are after a catch isn't really impacted simply because the single high cheated towards him because he would have been deep center if not, which wouldn't change his ability to assist on a slant or other underneath route. We had plenty of two high shells yesterday, presumably the thing Ross would force teams into more and still didn't find much after the catch. 

As it stands, John Ross brings nothing to this team if he can't catch a short or intermediate route. The issues we are having with our O line really nullify his deep threat ability for the most part so he has to win underneath first to help us slow down other teams then we can use him over the top, but when he doesn't even look for a ball thrown his way on a drag he has essentially relegated himself to the bench. 

[Au165]

(09-28-2020, 12:48 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: If that would have been Ross drop, he would bet getting tarred and feathered by his haters.

Right, but to be fair one is in game 3 the other is in year 4.

[Rubekahn29]

(09-28-2020, 12:56 PM)Au165 Wrote: Right, but to be fair one is in game 3 the other is in year 4.

Yeah, people gave Ross plenty of leeway. I was still agitated, but you give the Rookie some grace, also given he scored 2 TDs this game. Now if that was Boyd, Green, Ross, Tate, or basically anyone else I would lack the grace to give. 

[Whatever]

(09-28-2020, 12:52 PM)Au165 Wrote: No, he isn't. The plays he has caught the ball he has done little in terms of making anyone miss. Saying he is one of the "quickest in the league" is a pure guess at this point because he hasn't shown it and all speed-related claims are based on a 40 time now 4 years ago.

As for the claim that he would open it up for YAC, that isn't really true either. He played the first two games and we didn't have a bunch of YAC then. The theory is flawed because where the assisting tacklers are after a catch isn't really impacted simply because the single high cheated towards him because he would have been deep center if not, which wouldn't change his ability to assist on a slant or other underneath route. We had plenty of two high shells yesterday, presumably the thing Ross would force teams into more and still didn't find much after the catch. 

As it stands, John Ross brings nothing to this team if he can't catch a short or intermediate route. The issues we are having with our O line really nullify his deep threat ability for the most part so he has to win underneath first to help us slow down other teams then we can use him over the top, but when he doesn't even look for a ball thrown his way on a drag he has essentially relegated himself to the bench. 

At the end of the day, Tate vs Ross is basically who should be the #5 WR.  Neither one of them should be getting more targets than Boyd, Tee, Thomas, or AJ.  

Between the two, I would dress Ross.  All the issues on offense aside, the difference between 2-1 and 0-2-1 has been our atrocious red zone offense.  Ross proved in year 2 that he's an effective weapon in the red zone.  Tate proved once again on Sunday that he is a total liability in the red zone.  Ross can run whips, drags, and crossers down there and create some easy throws for Burrow.  Tate is nothing more than a between the 20's possession receiver, and we have better on the roster.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-28-2020, 12:52 PM)Au165 Wrote: No, he isn't. The plays he has caught the ball he has done little in terms of making anyone miss. Saying he is one of the "quickest in the league" is a pure guess at this point because he hasn't shown it and all speed-related claims are based on a 40 time now 4 years ago.

As for the claim that he would open it up for YAC, that isn't really true either. He played the first two games and we didn't have a bunch of YAC then. The theory is flawed because where the assisting tacklers are after a catch isn't really impacted simply because the single high cheated towards him because he would have been deep center if not, which wouldn't change his ability to assist on a slant or other underneath route. We had plenty of two high shells yesterday, presumably the thing Ross would force teams into more and still didn't find much after the catch. 

As it stands, John Ross brings nothing to this team if he can't catch a short or intermediate route. The issues we are having with our O line really nullify his deep threat ability for the most part so he has to win underneath first to help us slow down other teams then we can use him over the top, but when he doesn't even look for a ball thrown his way on a drag he has essentially relegated himself to the bench. 

Not actually true.
I was basing his quickness off a segment he did on Sports Science.
I can't find the actual segment anymore, but you can see part of it on YouTube. However, the definition on YouTube is fuzzy so you can't make out the numbers. But back when it aired, it was in HD and they analyzed his speed and acceleration to determine he not only was straight-line fast but also elite quickness and burst.

[Au165]

(09-28-2020, 02:23 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Not actually true.
I was basing his quickness of a segment he did on Sports Science.
I can't find the actual segment anymore, but you can see part of it on YouTube. However, the definition on YouTube is fuzzy so you can't make out the numbers. But back when it aired, it was in HD and they analyzed his speed and acceleration to determine he not only was straight-line fast but also elite quickness and burst.

This is going to sound like such a weird flex, not meant to be, but I am really tight with the developers of Madden at EA. They have access to the much deeper next-gen stats the NFL only releases to teams and partners that don't get published, and essentially Ross flashes elite straight-line speed occasionally (not top 5 in the league though) but rarely shows elite speed in any other part of his game.

I just have lost any interest in the guy, especially knowing he is probably going somewhere else next year.

[*ochocincos*]

What if we solve this Tate vs Ross problem and just make Erickson inactive?

Erickson's primary use right now is PR, of which he's only done 6.
Erickson is 5th in NFL with PR average due to a 22 yard return that put his average up to 11.0, but his career average is 7.7, so he's likely to come back down over the course of the season.
Surely there can be someone else on the roster (Wilson, Phillips, Bernard, Boyd) who could return an average of 2 punts per game?

[*ochocincos*]

(09-28-2020, 02:32 PM)Au165 Wrote: This is going to sound like such a weird flex, not meant to be, but I am really tight with the developers of Madden at EA. They have access to the much deeper next-gen stats the NFL only releases to teams and partners that don't get published, and essentially Ross flashes elite straight-line speed occasionally (not top 5 in the league though) but rarely shows elite speed in any other part of his game.

I just have lost any interest in the guy, especially knowing he is probably going somewhere else next year.

Thanks for sharing.

Perhaps he's just able to show off his elite speed and quickness without pads on, not as much on the field. I dunno.

If you watch the NFL 360 interview with Ross and DeSean Jackson, they talk about how DeSean gave Ross advice to not always go full speed. Ross has taken that advice perhaps too literally.

It's worth noting that 4 of the Bengals' WRs are actually set to hit FA after this season:
Ross
Green
Thomas
Erickson

Tate is set to follow suit the following year.

I'd say out of that group, none other than AJ are even $5 mill a year at this point, right? And AJ probably not worth more than $10-12 mill?

[*bengalfan74*]

(09-28-2020, 10:13 AM)Whatever Wrote: His big 19 yard catch came on a busted coverage where he was left completely undefended. Nobody with any objectivity is giving him a bunch of credit for that play.  

If you're going to have your camp spout off in the media about your usage, you'd better be able to win against man coverage in the end zone.  He had three opportunities and was beaten by his opposite number on every one. He got bailed out on a ticky tack PI on the first one.  

In the red zone, DB's play the slant a lot more aggressively.  You don't want to be throwing a bunch of slants to a WR that doesn't run good routes and doesn't have the physical ability to run a whip route to keep the CB guessing.  

If you're going to beat your chest and scream for the ball, you'd better play a lot better than Tate did Sunday.

Your obsession with tearing Tate down and propping Ross up is just, very curious. Higgins is the future.

[Au165]

(09-28-2020, 02:41 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Thanks for sharing.

Perhaps he's just able to show off his elite speed and quickness without pads on, not as much on the field. I dunno.

If you watch the NFL 360 interview with Ross and DeSean Jackson, they talk about how DeSean gave Ross advice to not always go full speed. Ross has taken that advice perhaps too literally.

It's worth noting that 4 of the Bengals' WRs are actually set to hit FA after this season:
Ross
Green
Thomas
Erickson

Tate is set to follow suit the following year.

I'd say out of that group, none other than AJ are even $5 mill a year at this point, right? And AJ probably not worth more than $10-12 mill?

I am okay with moving on from the four (assuming Thomas doesn't ascend) and taking another WR on day 2 in what should be another super deep WR draft. I also wouldn't mind looking out to FA for a #3 WR who has some speed, this class could have a decent amount of those in a mid tier option.

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-28-2020, 05:06 AM)kevin Wrote: Amongst the Negative threads,  it was a Tie, not a Loss.   So I add one Positive thread.   Higgins and Tate are becoming good targets for rookie Burrow.  Boyd had a good game.  Green was well covered.

Higgins 2 touchdowns will no doubt raise his Fantasy Points to Fantasy owners line-up to add him on.  Word was that Burrow was timing the ball to Higgins great in no preseason August practices.

Higgins at first pick in 2 is like a 1st round pick.  

I was tired of watching Ross drop passes.  The big race planned for Ross and Billy Hamilton a couple years ago.  Turned out Hamilton could not hit, Ross can not catch.

So Welcome nice games from Higgins and Tate to go with Boyd and Green who was covered.  Ross was a healthy scratch, meaning the others are out playing him.

The blocking did get better in 2nd half but tired out in overtime.  For one half we saw what Burrow, Boyd, Green, Higgins, Tate, Bernard, Mixon can do if they get this Blocking improved.  A blocking problem left over from Marvin, Mike and Duck Token.... Zac inherited the worst O Line in NFL. No preseason did not help.  In the 2nd Half the blocking was good enough to show Higgins and Tate are pretty good.

Cheers for Higgins in this Tie, not a loss.   Higgins looks pretty good, when Burrow given a chance to throw.

I have found that if i read your posts in a Walter Cronkite voice, it makes them much more enjoyable. 

Kudos to you, good sir. 

[BengalChris]

(09-28-2020, 12:15 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Tate has as many catches as Ross - 2.

Happy for Higgins with the TDs but Tate needs to have (way) more catches to justify putting him in over the potential value Ross adds with his speed to stretch the field. And I know the viewpoint of he still may not catch with his speed, but he can help open up the field more for others whereas Tate cannot.

It is Higgins who took Ross' job, not Tate. The current pecking order is something like this: Boyd, Green, Higgins, Thomas, Tate, then Ross.

If we include TEs and RBs then Ross' place drops down the list even further.

Ross has caught 2 of 7 targets for 17 yards. Thomas can easily fill the same role and is a much more reliable receiver.

We've witnessed Ross tumble from bring the #3 WR to the #6 in 3 short games.

 

[*ochocincos*]

(09-28-2020, 02:49 PM)Au165 Wrote: I am okay with moving on from the four (assuming Thomas doesn't ascend) and taking another WR on day 2 in what should be another super deep WR draft. I also wouldn't mind looking out to FA for a #3 WR who has some speed, this class could have a decent amount of those in a mid tier option.

I'm fine with an early-round WR only if the Bengals properly address OL and DL in FA.
Enough bargain bin shopping for OL.


How I'd approach:
Priority 1 - proven stud OG
Priority 2 - some proven vet DL


After that, I'd look for another CB and veteran #3 WR as you mentioned.
Teams can find quality CB and WR in FA without spending a boatload of $$, they just typically won't be elite.

If they did that, I'd look at the following draft Rds 1-4:
Rd 1 - OT
Rds 2-3 - pass rusher and OG
Rd 4 - WR (preferably with some deep threat ability)

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-28-2020, 09:06 AM)impactplaya Wrote: Tate had a big catch on a deep out route for 19 yds.
Then he had another catch for 10.
In my book thats 2 1st downs.
People gripe and complain a about the end zone fade routes. Well for Tate doesnt call his
Own route. Hes runs what is designed.
And that is a issue I see with the OC and WR coach. The creativity and variation of the routes
Overall is lacking. Tate is more than capable of running a simple fade route in the redzone.
As anyone seen the WRs run a stop as go route...double moves....a pivot route..
I havent.
Tate hauls in 2 ,1st downs people still whine and cry wha wha wha.

If you have an offensive mastermind who thinks, "John Ross is fast. Let's have him run straight down the field, right by everyone" and, "Auden Tate is tall and has a crazy big catch radius. Let's throw a few fades to him in the EZ", then you have a pretty clueless, stupid coach. 

[*ochocincos*]

(09-28-2020, 02:56 PM)BengalChris Wrote: It is Higgins who took Ross' job, not Tate. The current pecking order is something like this: Boyd, Green, Higgins, Thomas, Tate, then Ross.

If we include TEs and RBs then Ross' place drops down the list even further.

Ross has caught 2 of 7 targets for 17 yards. Thomas can easily fill the same role and is a much more reliable receiver.

We've witnessed Ross tumble from bring the #3 WR to the #6 in 3 short games.

 

In terms of being WR3, yes. It was probably bound to happen at some point anyway given Higgin was the 33rd pick in the draft.
But it was Tate who swapped with Ross as the inactive WR, so in a way, Ross and Tate are more competing with each other for playing time.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-28-2020, 02:59 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: If you have an offensive mastermind who thinks, "John Ross is fast. Let's have him run straight down the field, right by everyone" and, "Auden Tate is tall and has a crazy big catch radius. Let's throw a few fades to him in the EZ", then you have a pretty clueless, stupid coach. 

Ken Zampese?

[Whatever]

(09-28-2020, 02:32 PM)Au165 Wrote: This is going to sound like such a weird flex, not meant to be, but I am really tight with the developers of Madden at EA. They have access to the much deeper next-gen stats the NFL only releases to teams and partners that don't get published, and essentially Ross flashes elite straight-line speed occasionally (not top 5 in the league though) but rarely shows elite speed in any other part of his game.

I just have lost any interest in the guy, especially knowing he is probably going somewhere else next year.

EA gave Ross a 95 in Acceleration and a 93 in Agility.  It seems very odd to give him stats like that when his supposed Next Gen stats don't back it up.

[Whatever]

(09-28-2020, 02:42 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Your obsession with tearing Tate down and propping Ross up is just, very curious. Higgins is the future.

So you're totally fine with a guy whining his way into the lineup, then failing to produce?