Lawson vs. Dunlap

[impactplaya]

(09-30-2020, 02:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Dunlap has been one of the top DEs in the entire league over the last decade

Rank among DE's 2010-2019

PDs...………..1st
QB hits...…..2nd
TDs...………..3rd
Total tckls….4th
Sacks...……..6th
FF...………….7th
FR...………....8th

Yes his acculative numbers in.that span.are impressive.
But alot of times when.this defense needs to make a crucial 
Stop...just one stop.away from.changing the game, he disapears. 
The Bengals have lost so many games in.the 4th q. over the last couple years...
Last week.he had a chance to thwart a Eagles 4th q. Last minute drive. 
One man can make a difference. 
Id like to see .Dunlap just once rise to.the occasion like a Myles 
Garett or TJ Watt

[Wes Mantooth]

(09-30-2020, 02:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Dunlap has been one of the top DEs in the entire league over the last decade

Rank among DE's 2010-2019

PDs...………..1st
QB hits...…..2nd
TDs...………..3rd
Total tckls….4th
Sacks...……..6th
FF...………….7th
FR...………....8th

Longetivity, and a lack of injuries goes a long way into explaining your numbers.

There's not a lot DE's that played through those 9 years, with the amount of games played as he has.  That alone is going to elevate him near the top.

I'd be curious to see his ranks for each season, to see where he ranks.  Would you care to pull them individually, so I can see how it compares to his peers season by season?

Again, I'm not saying he's a bad player.  He's a good player.  But I feel he's overrated.  IMHO he's been grossly overpaid these last 3 years.

[fredtoast]

(09-30-2020, 02:35 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Yes his acculative numbers in.that span.are impressive.
But alot of times when.this defense needs to make a crucial 
Stop...just one stop.away from.changing the game, he disapears. 
The Bengals have lost so many games in.the 4th q. over the last couple years...
Last week.he had a chance to thwart a Eagles 4th q. Last minute drive. 
One man can make a difference. 
Id like to see .Dunlap just once rise to.the occasion like a Myles 
Garett or TJ Watt

There has never been a single game where "one stop" will win it.  It takes lots of stops over the course of the game to win.  And Dunlap has ben one of the top DEs in producing sack and tackles.

But if you are just looking at big game winning plays.  .  .  

-In 2011 the only team we beat with a winning record was the Titans, and in a one score game he stuffed their final drive of the game with a sack.  He also stopped a drive in the third quarter with a third down sack

-Also in 2011 the Colts had the ball down by only 3 with 2:30 left in the fourth quarter when Dunlap sealed the win with a 35 yard fumble recovery TD.

-2012 against the Chargers Bengals lead by just 4 points with 4 minutes left in fourth quarter.  Dunlap seals the win with a sack/FF/FR on Rivers.  Earlier in the game he had sacked Rivers on a first and goal at the Bengals 7 that forced the chargers to settle for a FG.

-Also in 2012 in a 3 point win against the Steelers Dunlap gets a sack in the third quarter om third down when the Steelers were in FG range at the Bengals 29 yard line.  Forces Pitt to punt keeping 3 points off the scoreboard.

-Final game of 2012 in a must win game against Division Champion Ravens Dunlap scores what would end up being the game winning TD on an interception return with 6 minutes left in he fourth quarter.

-In our incredible come from behind win against Seattle in 2015 Dunlap stopped a Seahawk drive with a third down sack in the third quarter and then ended the Seahawks final possession in overtime with another third down sack.

-In 2017 he scored the come-from-behind game-winning td on an interception return with 6 minutes left in the fourth quarter against the Colts.

-In the final game of the 2017 season against the Ravens after Dalton threw the 50 yard hail mary TD with a minute left Dunlap sealed the win by sacking Flacco for a 9 yard loss with just 30 seconds left.



Now lest see that list of game-winning plays made by your boy Myles Garrett.

 

   

[Nicomo Cosca]

(09-30-2020, 02:35 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Yes his acculative numbers in.that span.are impressive.
But alot of times when.this defense needs to make a crucial 
Stop...just one stop.away from.changing the game, he disapears. 
The Bengals have lost so many games in.the 4th q. over the last couple years...
Last week.he had a chance to thwart a Eagles 4th q. Last minute drive. 
One man can make a difference. 
Id like to see .Dunlap just once rise to.the occasion like a Myles 
Garett or TJ Watt

Go back and watch the Dolphins game from 2018.

[Housh]

(09-30-2020, 10:50 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Carlos Dunlap is by far the most overrated player on the team, and has been for years. (Followed closely by Joe Mixon.)

***Note: Please know that overrated does not mean bad. It means overrated.

I'm all for giving Carl Lawson as much work as we can, as he may actually have a future here.  And we really need to start considering how we want to build this team out.  His contract is up after the season, so the more we can see of him the better.

Carlos Dunlap on the other hand is an obvious cap casualty.  There is no way this team can justify paying him 13 mil next season.  The only other hope would be that he blows up mid season, where he rattles off his typical 2 or 3 game stretch of actually playing to hsi contract worth, and you can ship him off to some injury/covid ridden team, in desperate need, for a late round pick.

If Dunlap and Mixon are overrated its only because so many players are UNRATED.

Mixon and Dunlap are great players



Its not fair to rate players as overrated just because our team lacks talent. Move Mixon to a team with a line and he leads the league in YPC, and Id put money on that. The Mixon disrespect is getting stupid to me. One post someone will say we have worst O line in history then that sam eperson 4 posts later will say Mixon is overrated. Thats stupid. 





P.S. not saying you specifically did that. Just saying what iv seen people do. And I think alot of ppl will be able to guess who im talking about if youve been in the game threads.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(09-30-2020, 10:09 PM)Housh Wrote: If Dunlap and Mixon are overrated its only because so many players are UNRATED.

Mixon and Dunlap are great players



Its not fair to rate players as overrated just because our team lacks talent. Move Mixon to a team with a line and he leads the league in YPC, and Id put money on that. The Mixon disrespect is getting stupid to me. One post someone will say we have worst O line in history then that sam eperson 4 posts later will say Mixon is overrated. Thats stupid. 





P.S. not saying you specifically did that. Just saying what iv seen people do. And I think alot of ppl will be able to guess who im talking about if youve been in the game threads.

Can’t remember if it was you or not but someone jumped all over me in the GDT vs Cleveland because I said Mixon is not on the same level as Chubb. And I stand by that. Mixon has probably been my favorite player the past couple seasons, but you just can’t objectively say he’s as good as a Chubb, or a Derrick Henry.

I’ve brought up Belichick calling him the best RB in the league in the past when defending him, but I don’t think he’d take Joe over guys like that if he had his choice today. I don’t think it’s “disrespect” to say there’s a handful of RB’s that are in another tier above him. He’s probably top 10, but maybe not top 5 like I thought he was going to be.

And yes it’s a bit unfair to him because our OL is just so damn bad, but I do think there’s guys that could be having at least a little more success that he’s having right now if they were here.

[PikesPeakUC]

I definitely think that Lawson is more explosive than Dunlap is currently, but I agree on the health concerns. I think Lawson gets a contract from us, though, as he's been a talented player when on the field. I think we've got the money to keep both and then Dunlap leaves after next year and Lawson takes over.

We'll get some savings of about 35 million from the guys that are currently departing right now.

Dunlap would open another 8 million, I believe, if he were cut next year. Again, I don't know if it happens, but it's an option for the front office.

A Bobby Hart cut would open up 3.9.

I think there's enough room there to keep both Dunlap and Lawson, but we'll see.

[BengalChris]

(09-30-2020, 09:32 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: To focus on what can be done NOW to improve the team on the field, one glaring opportunity to me is by giving more snaps to Carl Lawson and less to Carlos Dunlap.  Lawson seems to be on a mission to prove he is a three-down player.  He also looks like he spend the offseason getting even bigger and stronger while Dunlap got a spare tire (that's impressive given that he is 6'7").

I don't have the PFF access, other than what is free, but Lawson has been making more plays than anyone on the defensive line.  He currently has 3 sacks, and a forced fumble.  He is averaging around 56% of the snaps on defense.  His PFF rating in 2020 is 74.7.

Carlos Dunlap has zero sacks or forced fumbles, and played a whopping 82% of the snaps against Philly.  His PFF rating in 2020 is 49.6.

Despite my dig at Dunlap's body, I know he has been a perennial slow starter (more conditioning questions?) and I think it would actually help Dunlap if he lost some snaps to Lawson.  Not only is Lawson tearing it up, but Dunlap might be more effective with more rest.  And teams throw with the most efficiency (typically) on first down, and many teams throw on first down so not having your best pass rusher out there on first down is just stupid (at least our coaches are consistent).  Lawson has also shown he is serious about being a three down player and has done very well against the run.  

Thoughts?

You asked for thoughts.

I think and believe that Dunlap as been a stable, reliable DE for the Bengals and has anchored that position quite well.

9 tackles in a game for DE is a good day. That's a good day for any DL man.

I personally love the PDs at the line of scrimmage. When the ball is batted down immediately it denies the offense a chance to move the ball, no matter how great or open the intended receiver is.

I would, however, rotate Lawson, Dunlap and Hubbard throughout the game, giving each plenty of reps while keeping them rested. I believe you really need 3 good players at the position and the Bengals are fortunate to have 3.

Now, if you want to move someone and potentially improve the team, then I'd consider trading Ross for an OLman. I'd include a pick if I could get a starter, a real starter not a Taylor endorsed starter.

 

[*ochocincos*]

(09-30-2020, 02:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Dunlap has been one of the top DEs in the entire league over the last decade

Rank among DE's 2010-2019

PDs...………..1st
QB hits...…..2nd
TDs...………..3rd
Total tckls….4th
Sacks...……..6th
FF...………….7th
FR...………....8th

Career-wise yes.

But when you look at it on a year-to-year basis, Dunlap is not Top 10 every year except maybe in a couple categories.

[Bengal Dude]

I do see Dunlap being a cap casualty next offseason. I know the coaches were frustrated with him last season. Dunlap's name was floated during the trade deadline last year. According to the beat writers, coaches noticed Dunlap didn't kick things into high gear until Dalton got benched. I 

[*SHRacerX*]

(09-30-2020, 11:48 AM)Au165 Wrote: Batting down balls at the line of scrimmage is a huge deal. You don't know what that ball would have been had it not been batted down, maybe it is a touchdown maybe it is a drop but you know it won't be anything because it was batted down. J.J. Watt gets a ton of praise for this but Dunlap isn't far behind Watt in this skill (or in batted balls career-wise), and it is a skill often taught but rarely done as well as Dunlap does it. The idea isn't to stop rushing, the idea is that if you can't get home then you watch the QB and time your jump to match his release.

This.  The batted pass becomes more important in checking offenses that get the ball out very quickly, which is most at this time.  It also can turn in to an INT.

One of the biggest, most-exciting plays on defense I ever saw at a live game was when Takeo jumped and tipped a pass to himself and rambled something like 70 yards for a TD against the Ravens coming off their Super Bowl win.  It was the first game after 9/11, I believe.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(09-30-2020, 12:16 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I just want the Bengals' top DE to get more sacks and cause more turnovers.
I feel like with him only having double-digit sacks once in his career, he's "settled" for jumping up and getting PDs.

To be fair to the DEs, if the coverage on the back end is always lousy (aside from Burfict, when has he played with great LB coverage behind him?) it makes it harder for the DE to "get home".

It is a synergistic effect that I am hoping still happens with better DT play in the middle (Geno, Daniels healthy) and the young LBs getting more and more experience.  ADG made one play that looked positively Burfict-like.  I will say that if that dude is still only weighing 218 lbs then I must be having eyesight issues.   He looks huge.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(09-30-2020, 01:07 PM)lone bengal Wrote: Far as the future of the DE position I only see Hubbard as a building block moving forward. Dunlap is obviously older.  I wouldn’t overpay for Lawson due to his injury history and the fact that he isn’t a 3 down player because he’s not great against the run. I could also see a 3-4 team paying more for Lawson. Corner back is a more important position, Jackson III and Alexander are both free agents next season. Outside of giving up some big plays to Odell Beckham,  Jackson III has been pretty good, still on the fence about resigning him. Gonna be a tough offseason with are offensive line needs and having no established corners on the roster besides Waynes.

I don't have the breakdown, but he has been VERY GOOD against the run and is trying to prove he deserves more snaps.  That was why I created this thread.  He is far from one-dimensional.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(09-30-2020, 02:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Dunlap has been one of the top DEs in the entire league over the last decade

Rank among DE's 2010-2019

PDs...………..1st
QB hits...…..2nd
TDs...………..3rd
Total tckls….4th
Sacks...……..6th
FF...………….7th
FR...………....8th

He has.  But he is not playing like it now.  

[impactplaya]

Id like to see Carlos lineup more on a inside techinque.
His 6'7 frame and radius could really affect the QBs release if hes hitting that gap between C and G
I think he.could actually be nore productive if he lined up inside me from time to.time
Coming off the edge he just takes himself out of the play more than I want to see

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-01-2020, 10:11 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I don't have the breakdown, but he has been VERY GOOD against the run and is trying to prove he deserves more snaps.  That was why I created this thread.  He is far from one-dimensional.  

Nobody on this defense has been “very good” against the run this season. We’ve been gashed 3 games in a row.

[*SHRacerX*]

(10-01-2020, 10:18 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Nobody on this defense has been “very good” against the run this season. We’ve been gashed 3 games in a row.

Lawson was very good against the run (and pass) on Sunday.  Maybe someone that has PFF subscription can verify the individual game rating?

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(10-01-2020, 10:16 AM)impactplaya Wrote: Id like to see Carlos lineup more on a inside techinque.
His 6'7 frame and radius could really affect the QBs release if hes hitting that gap between C and G
I think he.could actually be nore productive if he lined up inside me from time to.time
Coming off the edge he just takes himself out of the play more than I want to see

6'6. And for some reason, he's not been used much at DT, as he's more-effective at DE.

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-01-2020, 10:11 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I don't have the breakdown, but he has been VERY GOOD against the run and is trying to prove he deserves more snaps.  That was why I created this thread.  He is far from one-dimensional.  

Against Philly he had a 79.5 grade with 4 total pressures, 6 tackles, 5 stops, only 1 mis and a forced fumble. 

On the year he's 74.7, 8 pressures, including 3 sacks, 13 tackles, 10 stops and only 2 misses with a forced fumble.  

[*SHRacerX*]

(10-01-2020, 11:12 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Against Philly he had a 79.5 grade with 4 total pressures, 6 tackles, 5 stops, only 1 mis and a forced fumble. 

On the year he's 74.7, 8 pressures, including 3 sacks, 13 tackles, 10 stops and only 2 misses with a forced fumble.  

Now factor the number of snaps for Lawson and compare that production to Dunlap with greater snaps.