Offensive Line: It's NOT the Players. It's the Scheme

[Au165]

(10-12-2020, 12:31 PM)Joelist Wrote: Just keep it simplified until the line gels and can execute the more exotic stuff properly. Stop this "simplify it then next season go right back to the failed concepts" business. Also, using a simpler scheme does not mean the players are bad automatically. I mean, even our great lines with Braham and Levi and company did not use complicated schemes - they just had sound technique and relatively simple schemes they executed correctly consistently. 

They are already B.O.B on pass protection ("Man"), only really sliding is on the boot stuff. They combo some of their run stuff, but they aren't really running any sort of exotic blocking scheme. They aren't understanding their fundamentals, i.e. when your guy doesn't come where do you provide help to or when your count is at a deficit who do you turn loose to the QB. Some of it yesterday I think comes down to mis ID'ing the Mike which left guys unblocked, but other times it is smply poor play.

[Joelist]

(10-12-2020, 12:37 PM)Wyche Wrote: Agree on that....but we do have some pretty bad guards, and this simplifying things has been an issue across 3 different oline coaches and two HCs. Missing assignments is one thing, but watching Price get knocked on his ass, Hart getting manhandled, Redmond doing Redmond things, and Jordan getting beat over and over isn't all on coaching. Hopkins seems to do fine, and Williams is learning the game every week. My opinion is it's a little of both.

The problems Jordan and Hart have with getting pushed back are definitely at least in part on them - as bad pad level and footwork is in play there. What fixing the scheme can hopefully address is the constant in every game this season - constant plays where defenders fly in unblocked. 

[SunsetBengal]

(10-12-2020, 11:28 AM)Wyche Wrote: Nah, it's both. Og sucks, Price sucks, Fisher sucked, Jordan isn't very good, Redmond is below average.

While all of those guys have performed miserably in a Bengals uniform, they were each outstanding players at the college level.  Sure, we can write off one, maybe two as just unlucky draft selections, but that is a lot of guys drafted that have not even come close to achieving their expected potential.  Now, we have Jonah Williams, a top 10 selection at LT, who seems to be having difficulty knowing who he's supposed to be picking up on any given play.

Now, it's also been well talked about on here that the OL coming out of college these days, particularly the Tackles, are just not "game ready".  So all teams are struggling to find and develop new starting talent at T in the NFL.  What I'm having trouble wrapping my head around, is why we are struggling so hard to find a pair of competent Guards?  Guard has literally got to the most basic, fundamental position in Football.  You have to really have a jacked up blocking scheme, in order to have college educated Guards not knowing who to pick up, repeatedly.

Now, with the talent new talent pool issue out in the open;  How is that other teams are able to put competent, cohesive OLs out there?  Sure, 3 OL coaches in 4 seasons isn't helping things, but there needs to be a greater commitment from the organization as a whole.

(10-12-2020, 11:58 AM)Joelist Wrote: Kettering is right. When one player fails to perform at or near their college level it is a player problem (happens to every team). When multiple players do this you have to look at the coaching and scheme and technique being taught.

The blocking scheme is defective - our linemen always are too high and they also retreat immediately making for a tiny pocket. In the run game they don't fly off the snap driving into the defense. They lack aggressiveness. Communication is obviously a problem and so is reaction. So, we are using a scheme that is too complex for the current state of the line. It needs to be simplified into something that they CAN process and execute.

Yep, part of it is players.  But a much larger contributing factor to the crappy OL is coaching, talent evaluation, and roster budget management.

[kevin]

(10-12-2020, 08:46 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: What do Billy Price, Cedric Ogbuehi, Jonah Williams, Jake Fisher, and Russell Bodine all have in common?

Simple:  They were among the highest graded players at their respective positions in college.  I offer the example of these five offensive linemen as a microcosm of the Bengals' trench problems over the years.  How is it that college stars are drafted early by Cincinnati and let's just use the word underperform in the NFL?  

Coaching is the issue.  The hapless Jim Turner never created a dominant offensive line anywhere else in the NFL so why anyone thinks this will magically happen in Cincinnati is pazzo.  That's Italian for mishuganah.  Frank Pollack built a great line in Dallas and really never had a chance to make his mark with the Bengals so we'll throw that data point out as an outlier.  Paul Alexander is the chameleon coach because some of his lines were outstanding early on but some of them stank up Paul Brown Stadium.

Therefore, I believe the difference is this:  Paul Alexander's scheme was bad while Jim Turner's scheme is incorrect.  Let's define scheme before going further; scheme is the set, the blocking technique, and the blocking assignment.  "Mister Hart, you set up angled inward, drive block the defensive end, and turn him inside."  A good lineman can overcome a bad scheme but an incorrect scheme is the death knell for the entire line.

This is why the lines composed of players like Rich Braham, Willie Anderson, and Levi Jones had success.  They possessed the talent to overcome a bad scheme.  No one, not even Jonah Williams, can overcome an incorrect and outdated scheme.  Jim Turner might have a gruff, mean exterior but this does not translate into effective blocking technique.  Defensive linemen are no longer fat blubber-filled lumbering Stay-Puft Marshmallow Men; they are big, strong, and fast.  Merely pushing against them like moving a refrigerator is an exercise in futility.  As Dave Lapham says, whoever has the lowest pad level wins.  I don't see low pads among the Bengals' linemen; I see them get stood up and beaten on every play.  

On the radio I've heard excellent commentary about technique from Willie Anderson and Joe Walter and I believe these two men -- and other former players -- should be coaching the offensive line.  Jim Turner is going to be an accessory to assault because Joe Burrow is getting beat up for his lunch money back there.  Joe Mixon is getting stuffed like a Thanksgiving turkey.  There is no excuse for this, none.  Fixing this incorrect scheme cannot wait until next year.  It cannot even wait until next week.  

NO, it really is the players.  Every year you people come on here and ask how can we be losing, it must be coaching, Bengals have such great players.  NO THEY DON'T....The Bengals Right Guards and Right Tackles could not play for any other team in the NFL.   Their right flank is wide open to defenses pouring in. 

Now, I will say Bengals should do more Power Running.  Mixon behind Burrow with a head of steam as he takes the hand off.   That thing of Mixon standing next to Burrow flat footed is weak.  I know many college and pro teams do this now, but it is weak.   Mixon and this line are better when Mixon lines up for run behind Burrow and takes the hand off on the run and POWERS into the trenches. 

Still, lets not have another year of saying we have the best players in NFL, so it must be coaching.  No, some of our players have no business in The NFL.  Hopefully the Rebuild will weed them out. 

In you mentioning Ogbuehi and Price, I've been thinking their injuries that ruined their rookie years. Maybe they never got over those injuries. It would explain why we never saw the reason they were drafted round one, Injuries. Damaged Goods. They were not out a game or two, theses were major injuries. So was Williams and hopefully he can play. He is still in his first games getting taken to school by NFL Defenses.

[JSR18]

(10-12-2020, 10:54 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I agree with that, so who are the likely candidates to replace Turner?  Think on this before you make up your mind, as most of the good OL coaches will be in the playoffs, thus delaying the possibility of interview and hire.

 My theory is leave the Pro ranks alone. Go get an Oline coach from one of the top NCAA teams (somebody with fresh ideas and techniques) and pair them with a former player (W Anderson, J Walter) who can help them get accustomed to the Pro game...

[Joelist]

(10-12-2020, 02:08 PM)kevin Wrote: NO, it really is the players.  Every year you people come on here and ask how can we be losing, it must be coaching, Bengals have such great players.  NO THEY DON'T....The Bengals Right Guards and Right Tackles could not play for any other team in the NFL.   Their right flank is wide open to defenses pouring in. 

Now, I will say Bengals should do more Power Running.  Mixon behind Burrow with a head of steam as he takes the hand off.   That thing of Mixon standing next to Burrow flat footed is weak.  I know many college and pro teams do this now, but it is weak.   Mixon and this line are better when Mixon lines up for run behind Burrow and takes the hand off on the run and POWERS into the trenches. 

Still, lets not have another year of saying we have the best players in NFL, so it must be coaching.  No, some of our players have no business in The NFL.  Hopefully the Rebuild will weed them out. 

In you mentioning Ogbuehi and Price, I've been thinking their injuries that ruined their rookie years. Maybe they never got over those injuries.  It would explain why we never saw the reason they were drafted round one, Injuries. Damaged Goods.  They were not out a game or two, theses were major injuries.  So was Williams and hopefully he can play.  He is still in his first games getting taken to school by NFL Defenses.

Again it is not 100% on the players. When one player or maybe two do not live up to their collegiate billing then it is players - when none of them do so you have to also look at other things. Poor schemes that set them up to fail, bad technique (too high, not driving into the defense, too reactive) is in play too. Especially when you see unblocked defenders flying in not once but multiple times every game you have to question the OL blocking scheme. 

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(10-12-2020, 02:08 PM)kevin Wrote: NO, it really is the players.  Every year you people come on here and ask how can we be losing, it must be coaching, Bengals have such great players.  NO THEY DON'T....The Bengals Right Guards and Right Tackles could not play for any other team in the NFL.   Their right flank is wide open to defenses pouring in. 

Now, I will say Bengals should do more Power Running.  Mixon behind Burrow with a head of steam as he takes the hand off.   That thing of Mixon standing next to Burrow flat footed is weak.  I know many college and pro teams do this now, but it is weak.   Mixon and this line are better when Mixon lines up for run behind Burrow and takes the hand off on the run and POWERS into the trenches. 

Still, lets not have another year of saying we have the best players in NFL, so it must be coaching.  No, some of our players have no business in The NFL.  Hopefully the Rebuild will weed them out. 

In you mentioning Ogbuehi and Price, I've been thinking their injuries that ruined their rookie years. Maybe they never got over those injuries. It would explain why we never saw the reason they were drafted round one, Injuries. Damaged Goods. They were not out a game or two, theses were major injuries. So was Williams and hopefully he can play. He is still in his first games getting taken to school by NFL Defenses.

Good response!

Honest question: Do you think, hypothetically only, that if the Bengals hired Mike Munchak or Dante Scarnecchia the offensive line wouldn’t get better?

[BengalsFanRealist2855]

Reading these posts are painful ,because our fans seem.smarter then our coaches. I knew turner was a bad hire from his resume yet we bring him in and refuse to get rid of him because hes family. Makes me believe the nfl is fixed. And then I know theres other nfl teams like the patriots and steelers and kc , I cant name any o lineman on their teams. Except decastro and that's because we could of got him. These teams go off technique and being able to get away with holding also. Just like someone said,a guy goes down it dont kill their season they just keep winning.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(10-12-2020, 08:39 PM)BengalsFanRealist2855 Wrote: Reading these posts are painful ,because our fans seem.smarter then our coaches. I knew turner was a bad hire from his resume yet we bring him in and refuse to get rid of him because hes family. Makes me believe the nfl is fixed. And then I know theres other nfl teams like the patriots and steelers and kc , I cant name any o lineman on their teams. Except decastro and that's because we could of got him. These teams go off technique and being able to get away with holding also. Just like someone said,a guy goes down it dont kill their season they just keep winning.

The Cincinnati Bengals have by far the smartest fan base in all of sports, not just the NFL. It’s not even close. The NFL isn’t fixed, it’s broken.

Our fans are smart because we’ve had to learn what good football and bad football look like. I was just a kid in ‘81 and ‘88 and that was amazing football the Bengals played. They were dominating opponents every week and nearly won two Super Bowls. Now fast forward to the 1990s after Paul Brown died and Cincinnati hasn’t won a playoff game since. The last win was in the season thirty years ago. That’s why it’s so frustrating!

Bengals fans know every defensive set, every blocking scheme, and every wide receiver route. Give every NFL fan base a test of what defensive line techniques are and a Bengals fan will ace it every time. A 1-technique means lining up just to one side of the center, 3 technique on the outside shoulder of a guard, and 5 technique on the outside shoulder of a tackle. Lining up on the outside shoulder of the tight end is actually a 9 technique, and the inside shoulder of the TE is a 7 technique. We know what gaps are for offensive linemen too.

I was on the Dallas Message Board to see what Cowboys fans thought of Andy Dalton and I expected their posters to be smart like ours. Wrong! They were dumb as rocks. I expected comments about routes and passing techniques but the most relevant comment I read was, “He was slangin’ that biscuit.”

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(10-12-2020, 08:46 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Simple:  They were among the highest graded players at their respective positions in college. 

That's describing almost every single player who gets drafted.

There are ~73,700 Division I football players in the country at any given time.

There are only 255 picks in the NFL draft. Bad college players don't get drafted. Pretty much EVERYONE who gets drafted is among the highest graded players at their respective positions in college. It doesn't mean they will all be good NFL players.

[*rfaulk34*]

How do i feel about the offensive line's execution?


I'm in favor of it.

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-12-2020, 01:53 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: While all of those guys have performed miserably in a Bengals uniform, they were each outstanding players at the college level.  Sure, we can write off one, maybe two as just unlucky draft selections, but that is a lot of guys drafted that have not even come close to achieving their expected potential.  Now, we have Jonah Williams, a top 10 selection at LT, who seems to be having difficulty knowing who he's supposed to be picking up on any given play.

Now, it's also been well talked about on here that the OL coming out of college these days, particularly the Tackles, are just not "game ready".  So all teams are struggling to find and develop new starting talent at T in the NFL.  What I'm having trouble wrapping my head around, is why we are struggling so hard to find a pair of competent Guards? Guard has literally got to the most basic, fundamental position in Football.  You have to really have a jacked up blocking scheme, in order to have college educated Guards not knowing who to pick up, repeatedly.

Now, with the talent new talent pool issue out in the open;  How is that other teams are able to put competent, cohesive OLs out there?  Sure, 3 OL coaches in 4 seasons isn't helping things, but there needs to be a greater commitment from the organization as a whole.




Yep, part of it is players.  But a much larger contributing factor to the crappy OL is coaching, talent evaluation, and roster budget management.

Right

Here's the thing I don't get and probably never will ? You hear people saying they're young, inexperienced, and so on.

The interior Oline has one job, plug the middle. It's not rocket science ! And they've been doing it, in most cases for several years counting HS and College. It's not like they're being forced to stand on one hand, read a book while upside down with the other and still block.

Yet time and time again you see free rushers firing right up our gut virtually untouched. And our linemen back pedaling and blocking no one. 

And then standing there looking like they have no idea what to do. Isn't blocking 101 instructions to default to taking the inside rushers first ? How do they just stand there and do nothing ? "Oh I'm supposed to block" ? looks on their face.

I just don't get how they have such complicated instructions that blocking gets passed over for whatever they're being told to do ?

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-13-2020, 12:55 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: How do i feel about the offensive line's execution?


I'm in favor of it.

Wasn't that the Tampa Bay coach back in 1980 or whatever ?

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(10-12-2020, 08:46 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: What do Billy Price, Cedric Ogbuehi, Jonah Williams, Jake Fisher, and Russell Bodine all have in common?

Simple:  They were among the highest graded players at their respective positions in college.  I offer the example of these five offensive linemen as a microcosm of the Bengals' trench problems over the years.  How is it that college stars are drafted early by Cincinnati and let's just use the word underperform in the NFL?  

Coaching is the issue.  The hapless Jim Turner never created a dominant offensive line anywhere else in the NFL so why anyone thinks this will magically happen in Cincinnati is pazzo.  That's Italian for mishuganah.  Frank Pollack built a great line in Dallas and really never had a chance to make his mark with the Bengals so we'll throw that data point out as an outlier.  Paul Alexander is the chameleon coach because some of his lines were outstanding early on but some of them stank up Paul Brown Stadium.

Therefore, I believe the difference is this:  Paul Alexander's scheme was bad while Jim Turner's scheme is incorrect.  Let's define scheme before going further; scheme is the set, the blocking technique, and the blocking assignment.  "Mister Hart, you set up angled inward, drive block the defensive end, and turn him inside."  A good lineman can overcome a bad scheme but an incorrect scheme is the death knell for the entire line.

This is why the lines composed of players like Rich Braham, Willie Anderson, and Levi Jones had success.  They possessed the talent to overcome a bad scheme.  No one, not even Jonah Williams, can overcome an incorrect and outdated scheme.  Jim Turner might have a gruff, mean exterior but this does not translate into effective blocking technique.  Defensive linemen are no longer fat blubber-filled lumbering Stay-Puft Marshmallow Men; they are big, strong, and fast.  Merely pushing against them like moving a refrigerator is an exercise in futility.  As Dave Lapham says, whoever has the lowest pad level wins.  I don't see low pads among the Bengals' linemen; I see them get stood up and beaten on every play.  

On the radio I've heard excellent commentary about technique from Willie Anderson and Joe Walter and I believe these two men -- and other former players -- should be coaching the offensive line.  Jim Turner is going to be an accessory to assault because Joe Burrow is getting beat up for his lunch money back there.  Joe Mixon is getting stuffed like a Thanksgiving turkey.  There is no excuse for this, none.  Fixing this incorrect scheme cannot wait until next year.  It cannot even wait until next week.  

This argument would carry more weight if any Bengal O-lineman had gone onto have even moderate success elsewhere. They haven't and as I just posted on another thread Ogbuehi is the only one still on another team's roster. He's on his second team in 2 years since parting company with the Bengals. Bodine lasted just one season with the Bills.

[Au165]

(10-13-2020, 08:50 AM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: Bodine lasted just one season with the Bills.

The Patriots actually traded for him when they lost their center then cut him a week later lol.

[DesertBengal]

I agree that coaching makes a big difference. It’s the ability to get more out of the talent you have.

Look at the LA Chargers. They’re down 3 starting lineman - Mike Pouncy, Bulaga, and Trai Turner. With 3 backup players they’re able to get better o-line performance than we are with 4 out of our 5 starters. I put that on coaching.

I never liked the Jim turner hiring, just like most Bengals fans. One of the problems with hiring your buddies into positions like Zac Taylor did, is it makes it more difficult to fire them when the time comes and your more inclined to give them a second chance.

Jim Turner has to go, and it will be interesting to see if Zac Taylor has the balls to fire his buddy (that he vouched for) at the end of the season.

[fredtoast]

(10-12-2020, 12:40 PM)Au165 Wrote: They aren't understanding their fundamentals, i.e. when your guy doesn't come where do you provide help to or when your count is at a deficit who do you turn loose to the QB. Some of it yesterday I think comes down to mis ID'ing the Mike which left guys unblocked, but other times it is smply poor play.

This.

Bengals seem to have more problems picking up blitzes and stunts than just getting overpowered.  Over a third of our sacks (7.5 of 22) allowed have been by Defensive Backs, and even many of the sacks by D-linemen seem to come on simple stunts like loops and twists.  And like Au said LBs are flying in completely unblocked.

I am not saying we have great talent on our O-line, but a big part of the problem is coaching.  If one player is getting beaten all the time then replace the player.  When we have leaks all over the line and guys are coming in completely unblocked you have to look at the coaches.

[McC]

(10-12-2020, 09:20 AM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: Price, oogieboogie we’re both bad picks. They are bad players.

Jim Turner needs tired. I’ve said that for forever.

So, a year and a half is the new definition of forever.  Interesting.

[samhain]

I feel like most here are in agreement that Turner and his schemes are garbage. He needs to be gone before the season ends. Zac can even continue doing buddy hires if he wants to bring his father-in-law Mike Sherman in as an interim OL coach.

I'd also point out that our guard situation is more or less what you get with a depth chart full of dumpster dives. Since the end of 2017, for whatever reason, this team goes through multiple candidates at RG, then it's back to Redmond. EVery single time. Alex Redmond tries hard and has an attitude befitting of a NFL OG. Problem is, he sucks. He always has. That's why he was acquired were he was after UCLA, and that's why he's never the answer when the team is looking to put together a line in the offseason. He's not even "Just a guy"". He's a sub-guy.

Jordan is developmental guy that got thrown to the wolves. Sometimes that works. It's not working now. XSF, unlike Redmond, is just a guy at least. Price is only in the position group because he sucked at the spot he was drafted to play, and got bumped off by a depth guy in Hopkns.

Guys, this is garbage roster management at it's finest. No development, bad drafting, plus no big spending on the position gets you here, and here is a collection of bums and guys that end up on the field way more than they would on a decent team.

They need to spend big on OG this offseason. They've waited long enough for the dregs of this roster to contribute. It's not happening.