Wasting cap space on certain veterans

[*psychdoctor*]

(10-19-2020, 05:25 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Creating dead cap space is fine. It would happen whether cut now or in the offseason.
Would cutting now save any additional money compared to cutting in the offseason?
That's what I am asking.

I would think so because the amount they would be paid the rest of this year would still be higher than their dead cap, right?

It varies from player to player.  

[*ochocincos*]

(10-19-2020, 05:28 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: Looking at the link I posted above, Lawson is dirt cheap.   Green carries the highest Cap %.   Interesting look.   I think cutting Dunlap, Geno after this season makes sense.  I think letting Green, Ross walk makes sense from purely a production view.  Lawson is a keeper, so is Wj3, Alexander.  I do not know enough about Waynes but his base is 5 mil per year.  Like to see what he brings.

Lawson is expected to get a (big) pay raise compared to what he makes now, as he's on his rookie contract and was a 4th round pick.

I am fine with re-signing Lawson, but not for top-tier money. Maybe in the $8-10 mill range.

[*ochocincos*]

(10-19-2020, 05:31 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: It varies from player to player.  

Yes, I know that.

I don't think we are quite understanding each other, so let me try to make my question more clear using an example...

Per Spotrac, Geno Atkins has a cap hit this year of $14.2 mill if he is here through the whole year.
His dead cap, if released, is $7.8 mill.

What I am asking is given the fact there are 10 games remaining...
1) What has he been paid to date this year?
2) What remaining guaranteed money is he still owed that would result in dead cap if released?
3) What, if any, cap savings would the Bengals be able to get this year from cutting him?

I'm to assume he's received $2.6 mill signing bonus, $200k roster bonus, $300k workout bonus. That would be $3.1 mill in bonuses.
Atkins's base salary this year is $11.1 mill.
His base salary is split out per week, so he would make $653k per week

If so, he'd be due $7.18 mill the rest of this year if he played his contract out.
He's already received $7.017 mill this season from bonuses + 6 games.

His remaining dead cap should only be the rest of his signing bonus, which is $5.2 mill, right?
As such, if he's released today, the Bengals would actually have a savings of $1.817 mill this year and also no dead cap hit to 2021 or 2022 because his dead cap would have been paid out this season.

EDIT - Adjusted base pay to reflect its divided by 17 (all games plus bye week), not 16 (just games)

[*ochocincos*]

(10-19-2020, 05:43 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Yes, I know that.

I don't think we are quite understanding each other, so let me try to make my question more clear using an example...

Per Spotrac, Geno Atkins has a cap hit this year of $14.2 mill if he is here through the whole year.
His dead cap, if released, is $7.8 mill.

What I am asking is given the fact there are 10 games remaining...
1) What has he been paid to date this year?
2) What remaining guaranteed money is he still owed that would result in dead cap if released?
3) What, if any, cap savings would the Bengals be able to get this year from cutting him?

I'm to assume he's received $2.6 mill signing bonus, $200k roster bonus, $300k workout bonus. That would be $3.1 mill in bonuses.
Atkins's base salary this year is $11.1 mill.
Is the base salary split out per game such that he makes $693k per game?

If so, he'd be due $6.93 mill the rest of this year if he played his contract out.
He's already received $7.26 mill this season from bonuses + 6 games.

His remaining dead cap should only be the rest of his signing bonus, which is $5.2 mill, right?
As such, if he's released today, the Bengals would actually have a savings of $1.73 mill this year and also no dead cap hit to 2021 or 2022 because his dead cap would have been paid out this season.

Along with this, here's potential savings with cutting Dunlap this week:
$7.8 mill base salary (assumed to be $458k per game)
$2.25 mill signing bonus, $437.5k roster bonus, $500k workout bonus = $3.1875 mill in bonuses
($458k x 6 = $2.753 mill) + $3.1875 mill = $5.94 mill paid out to date.
$5.038 mill remaining to be paid for remaining 11 weeks.

If Dunlap is cut today, the remaining $2.25 mill signing bonus for next year would have to be paid out, therefore meaning the Bengals would still have a net positive $2.788 mill saved this year along with 0 dead cap hit next year.

So if Dunlap + Atkins are cut prior to Sunday's game...
$1.817 mill saved this year for Atkins
$2.788 mill saved this year for Dunlap
------------
$4.6 mill saved that can be rolled over to next year

Also, 0 dead cap for next year since Dunlap and Atkins would be off the books this year.

So basically this was the long version of "yes, the Bengals would save money if they moved on from them now"

EDIT - I just looked it up and the base salary is not split per game but by week, which includes the bye week. As such, a player only makes 1/17th of their base salary per game. Given that the Bengals have not had their bye week, there are still 11 pay periods remaining for Bengals players. I have updated the base salary numbers to reflect this.

[*psychdoctor*]

I like your motivation and attempts to save the Bengals money, but there is no way in hell they are cutting Geno and Dunlap mid season.  Hell, they just signed Hunt.  It is a moot point.  But after this year, I could see them either trading one or both or just releasing the players that are not performing.  

[TheBengalsMind]

Listen, it's been 9 years ago, October 18th 2011, when we traded Carson Palmer. His trade that day is what set us up for the run we had 5 years in a row.

Listen Dunlap, AJ Green, Atkins can get you draft capital that is gonna set you up in the draft. I mean Dunlap has basically been calling the coaching staff out for ineptitude the last couple of weeks. Saying I'm socially distancing from the field now.

If Carlos feels like that others probably do too. Your not playing them, but you sure as hell are paying them.

If Mike Zimmer is fired, Lou is getting shown the door. I also don't care if Zac likes that or not. Because that's his replacement if he doesn't start winning.

I don't care what anybody says before they signed Kirk Cousins, which Mike Zimmer was on record saying would eventually set this franchise back years if they did. He was winning over 60 percent of his games. They captured two NFC North titles, they earned two playoff berths, and they finished the 2017 season one game short of making the Super Bowl.

Mike Zimmer, before they signed Kirk “The thing that I told Rick (Spielman) was, when we sat down in meetings, I said, ‘look, we’ve won this many games in these many years because of this football team.’ Because we’ve played really good on defense for the most part. This year, obviously, we played so much better on offense and we were able to go further than what a lot of people thought we would. So it’s important that we continue to put the pieces in place on defense."

He was fine with Case or Teddy as QB. They were not. If anybody thinks that were better with Zac then Zimmer then I don't know what to say.

If nobody is picking up Eric Bieniemy hire him as OC.

Also I don't buy that these players aren't doing good just because they don't like or respect Zac though.

Since our playoff lose to the Steelers we're 22-46-2. Only the Jets 21-49-0 and Browns 18-51-1 have been worse.

We've not been good either with Green, Atkins and Dunlap in their prime or not. With Lewis or Zac. There is enough young talent here to form a team, but I'm not sold on whether or not Zac is the one that's gonna do it.

Knowing the Brown family, they'll probably give Zac until the end of the year. But one thing is for sure we don't want a repeat of the 90's. Especially not when the entire media world can tell you got the right QB in place.

[TheBengalsMind]

I'm telling ya, for those that don't remember the 90's. It's kinda eerie, but everybody likes to compare Joe Burrow to Carr when talking about him getting hit to much.

But I'm old enough to remember a guy named David R. Klingler. He had "the greatest season ever by a quarterback in college history." He was a very humble kid, in fact he went into preaching after he retired, he would have gave the shirt off his back to anybody.

We had a veteran QB who masked a lot of the problems we had on offense, he had a quick release, in Boomer. Much like Andy Dalton. Boomer is the better QB, but the point remains.

Klingler was very athletic, he ran a 4.82 at the combine. I think he might of got in the 4.7's in his pro day. He was known to like trying to extend plays and run around. He was 6'3 played around 215 pounds. He was smart and very intelligent, very country-style mannerisms cause he was from Texas.

You want to talk about an arm? Klingler could throw the ball 85 yards, from his knees. His arm was stronger than Justin Herbert's or Mahomes. That doesn't mean he was the better QB, but legitimately his arm was stronger than either one of those QB's.

We started him for a Pittsburgh game, he gets sacked 10 times that game. I remember what Dave Shula and even the announcers said that game.

"Well, he just holds on to the football too much, he's got to try and stop being so tough. He's got to fundamentally change who he is as QB."

He ends up getting injured and now he's struggling to pass the ball 35 yards. When he use to be able to toss it 85 yards.

Did you know that Klingler got sacked a higher percentage of his throws than Joe does? Dave would sound almost exactly like Zac in his after game press conferences.

Listen, I know that the situations are different. I know Joe Burrow is better than Klingler. I know we have an entire year and things can get better. In fact, I hope they do.

It's just that I want to see Burrow have a long and productive career. I want to see him give us our 1st Super Bowl. I think he's talented enough to do it.

I think the franchise would be justified to, at least behind closed doors, be talking about the possibility of doing some things. Making some trades. Changing some coaches.

[*SHRacerX*]

(10-19-2020, 03:15 PM)Wire22Wire Wrote: They aren’t good enough to play more

We’d be worse if they played more.

Cut cut cut cut cut.   Be a real franchise, make the Easy decisions.   Thank them for their time
And years.  Don’t get emotional.  

It’s a business. Not a non for profit retirement home

Sad truths here.  Not giving up on Geno yet, as I believe that guy has earned the equity to trust he was really injured and is being eased back in, but I do feel a lot of "old guard vs. new guard" in this team and it may just be best to clean house and move on.  

I hope some of them can be moved late this season (hell, they should be fresh, right?) for future draft picks.  Even later round picks would be worth it at this point.  

[*bengalfan74*]

The truth is this should have been done before the season.

AJ shouldn't have been tagged. Either Geno or Carlos or both should have been traded. But that isn't the way this franchise rolls.

[Sled21]

(10-20-2020, 10:28 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: The truth is this should have been done before the season.

AJ shouldn't have been tagged. Either Geno or Carlos or both should have been traded. But that isn't the way this franchise rolls.

Geno, an aging vet, went to the Pro Bowl last year, still playing at a high level. We have no outstanding player to replace him. In other words, this is a Whitworth situation where the organization gets blasted for keeping him, and would get blasted for letting him go.

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-20-2020, 11:02 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Geno, an aging vet, went to the Pro Bowl last year, still playing at a high level. We have no outstanding player to replace him. In other words, this is a Whitworth situation where the organization gets blasted for keeping him, and would get blasted for letting him go.

The team doesn't get blasted for letting Whit go. The team gets blasted for letting Whit go even after seeing his replacement couldn't block a fire hydrant.

[fredtoast]

(10-20-2020, 12:19 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: The team doesn't get blasted for letting Whit go. The team gets blasted for letting Whit go even after seeing his replacement couldn't block a fire hydrant.

So which DT on our roster impressed you so much that you thought he could replace Geno?

And after Dunlap got healthy last year he played as well as any DE in the league over the last half of the season.  It made no sense at all to get rid of him. In the last 9 games of last year he had 44 tkls, 8 sacks, 9 TFL, 18 QB hits, and 2 FF.

[Sled21]

(10-20-2020, 12:19 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: The team doesn't get blasted for letting Whit go. The team gets blasted for letting Whit go even after seeing his replacement couldn't block a fire hydrant.

Ok, so who do we have to replace Atkins?

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-20-2020, 12:36 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Ok, so who do we have to replace Atkins?

Nobody but this is a lost season already anyways. This team has to build for the future now. Stockpile draft picks, be willing to make tough decisions, trade players if at all possible, make cuts. Pretty much all the stuff we don't do.

Dalton should have been traded last season for example but Mike isn't in the business of making other teams better lol. Nor is he in the business of making his own team better, sadly.

[Sled21]

(10-20-2020, 12:49 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Nobody but this is a lost season already anyways. 

So get rid of him with admittedly no one to replace him.... in other words, a Whitworth scenario.

[Wes Mantooth]

(10-20-2020, 07:25 AM)TheBengalsMind Wrote: You want to talk about an arm? Klingler could throw the ball 85 yards, from his knees.

I think you're confusing David Klinger with that kid out of Metropolis U, Clark Kent.