When the Backups Play Better Than the Starters.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

(11-01-2020, 08:15 PM)BengalFanInNJ Wrote: Have you seen the starters’ prior 7 games?

Yes — and they suck. Let’s roll with the five guys who played today.

[Interceptor]

Maybe since there was no pre-season for spots to be earned, the (complacent?) incumbent players automatically get the starts?

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(11-01-2020, 06:57 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: Jordan has been terrible this year, Spain, XSF or Redmond should be starting over him for this season.

Jordan's 22 and coming off a career best game last outing. They need to start him to find out if he's taken a step forward or if that was an one-off. 

[Yojimbo]

(11-01-2020, 10:18 PM)TJHoushmandzadehs Shiny Shoes Wrote: Jordan's 22 and coming off a career best game last outing. They need to start him to find out if he's taken a step forward or if that was an one-off. 

No, they can sit him and allow him to mature this year, work on technique, build strength to better anchor and compete for the starting job next year. I’m not willing to adversely affect Burrow’s first season to allow Jordan to figure things out when we have solid veterans that can keep Burrow upright.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-01-2020, 08:15 PM)BengalFanInNJ Wrote: Have you seen the starters prior 7 games?

Yes, and outside of getting beat by elite pass rushers like Bosa and Garrett, Jonah has been pretty good. It’s silly to suggest benching him.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-01-2020, 08:24 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Yes — and they suck. Let’s roll with the five guys who played today.

You have a tendency to overreact from week to week. Jonah does not suck. He’s better than anyone we had out there today. I guarantee if the 5 that started today played against the Chargers or Browns they would have given up multiple sacks. The Titans pass rush is not good.

[ezekiel23]

You have to admit that it was nothing short of spectacular as to what this O-line accomplished today under these unique circumstances.Even though it was against an unspectacular defense.Wow! Excellent Job.Guess the Titans defense might feel a little humiliated right now.

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(11-01-2020, 10:28 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: No, they can sit him and allow him to mature this year, work on technique, build strength to better anchor and compete for the starting job next year. I’m not willing to adversely affect Burrow’s first season to allow Jordan to figure things out when we have solid veterans that can keep Burrow upright.

No, you see what you have with him this year, when it won't jeopardize a play-off run.

If he's bad again you now have options for the rest of the season and so can just bench him after a couple more games before it adversely affects Burrow - who has been fine up to now even with Jordan in the line.

If he's good you know you don't have to use a draft pick or free agency next year on his position and can use those resources to strengthen other positions.

If you sit him and he then wins the job in camp you won't know whether that practice form translates into game performance so you jeopardize next year's play-off chances, you deprive him of much needed experience and you'll have spent resources on competition that weren't required.
If you sit him with the intention to let him compete for a starting job in camp you won't commit fully to addressing the position in the draft or free agency so you end up with a lesser player and you deprive your starting line of time together to develop chemistry and timing.

Essentially every scenario involved with sitting him now ends up with a worse outcome. Play him and if he sucks you know you need to get either a top guard in free agency or spend a high draft pick on the position.

[CorpusChristiBengal]

Keep in mind that Jonah is basically a rookie, don't bench him wtf

[Sled21]

(11-02-2020, 09:48 AM)CorpusChristiBengal Wrote: Keep in mind that Jonah is basically a rookie, don't bench him wtf

Jonah is NOT getting benched..... that's just crazy talk.

[Yojimbo]

(11-02-2020, 08:58 AM)TJHoushmandzadehs Shiny Shoes Wrote: No, you see what you have with him this year, when it won't jeopardize a play-off run.

If he's bad again you now have options for the rest of the season and so can just bench him after a couple more games before it adversely affects Burrow - who has been fine up to now even with Jordan in the line.

If he's good you know you don't have to use a draft pick or free agency next year on his position and can use those resources to strengthen other positions.

If you sit him and he then wins the job in camp you won't know whether that practice form translates into game performance so you jeopardize next year's play-off chances, you deprive him of much needed experience and you'll have spent resources on competition that weren't required.
If you sit him with the intention to let him compete for a starting job in camp you won't commit fully to addressing the position in the draft or free agency so you end up with a lesser player and you deprive your starting line of time together to develop chemistry and timing.

Essentially every scenario involved with sitting him now ends up with a worse outcome. Play him and if he sucks you know you need to get either a top guard in free agency or spend a high draft pick on the position.

You’re basically arguing for never having open competition for spots in training camp...

[WeezyBengal]

(11-01-2020, 06:42 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: How about a five quarter sample size?

Still not even close to being enough.

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(11-02-2020, 12:13 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: You’re basically arguing for never having open competition for spots in training camp...

I'm not.

Open competition works best when you have an otherwise settled unit with one opening alongside some sure things. That's not this Bengals' O-line. 

The closest thing they have to a sure thing to start on next year's O-line has played 7 NFL matches.

[Yojimbo]

(11-02-2020, 12:40 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: I'm not.

Open competition works best when you have an otherwise settled unit with one opening alongside some sure things. That's not this Bengals' O-line. 

The closest thing they have to a sure thing to start on next year's O-line has played 7 NFL matches.

This makes no sense. Open competitions are for finding the best player regardless of any external factors. 

"This player sucks but we have to hand him a starting job because the player next to him sucks, too."

[Big Boss]

Looks like we may have some healthy competition at offensive line after all, and things aren't as dire as we thought.

Now we just have to wonder if this coaching staff will make the right call in starting some guys over others.

[Nati#1]

We cannot praise this team to much. We need consistency

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(11-02-2020, 12:43 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: This makes no sense. Open competitions are for finding the best player regardless of any external factors. 

"This player sucks but we have to hand him a starting job because the player next to him sucks, too."

No, it means that when you are constructing an O-line you don't just hand spots to which ever of the replacement level players end up sucking least in training camp but you instead identify as Plan A the players you want to build around in the draft and free agency and go out and aggressively attack the position by spending premium picks and big money free agents. They still have to earn that spot but if you are spending premium draft picks or handing out big money free agent it's not because you want them to compete for a spot but you expect them to win the spot.

Once you have cornerstones in place you can then fill out the line. Jonah is presumably one such cornerstone for the Bengals. They need to find out before they go shopping in the off-season whether Jordan can be another. If he isn't they need to spend a round 1 or 2 pick on the position/a tier 1 or tier 2 free agent on the position. Likewise the need to find out whether Johnson or Adeniji is the guy at RT before the end of the year and if not they need to spend. They are probably ok (but no more) at C with Hopkins/Price. It's only in the unlikely scenario that Williams, Spain, Hopkins/Price and Johnson/Adeniji all establish themselves as reliable by the end of the season that it makes sense to have an open competition at G between Jordan, XSF, Finney and whatever cheap FA/mid-low draft pick they pick up for the last remaining spot. Otherwise there are just too many moving parts and not enough sure things.

[Yojimbo]

(11-02-2020, 02:50 PM)TJHoushmandzadehs Shiny Shoes Wrote: No, it means that when you are constructing an O-line you don't just hand spots to which ever of the replacement level players end up sucking least in training camp but you instead identify as Plan A the players you want to build around in the draft and free agency and go out and aggressively attack the position by spending premium picks and big money free agents. They still have to earn that spot but if you are spending premium draft picks or handing out big money free agent it's not because you want them to compete for a spot but you expect them to win the spot.

Once you have cornerstones in place you can then fill out the line. Jonah is presumably one such cornerstone for the Bengals. They need to find out before they go shopping in the off-season whether Jordan can be another. If he isn't they need to spend a round 1 or 2 pick on the position/a tier 1 or tier 2 free agent on the position. Likewise the need to find out whether Johnson or Adeniji is the guy at RT before the end of the year and if not they need to spend. They are probably ok (but no more) at C with Hopkins/Price. It's only in the unlikely scenario that Williams, Spain, Hopkins/Price and Johnson/Adeniji all establish themselves as reliable by the end of the season that it makes sense to have an open competition at G between Jordan, XSF, Finney and whatever cheap FA/mid-low draft pick they pick up for the last remaining spot. Otherwise there are just too many moving parts and not enough sure things.

You’re missing my point. I’m not talking about building an Oline right now. I’m talking about Burrow being the most important player on this team and decisions that need to be made right now have to be viewed through that lens. You can’t risk his development to find out what you have in a 4th round kid that obviously needs more physical maturity. We have vets now that can keep Burrow protected and they have to play for that reason. Jordan’s development cannot trump Burrows. Period.

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(11-02-2020, 03:12 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: You’re missing my point. I’m not talking about building an Oline right now. I’m talking about Burrow being the most important player on this team and decisions that need to be made right now have to be viewed through that lens. You can’t risk his development to find out what you have in a 4th round kid that obviously needs more physical maturity. We have vets now that can keep Burrow protected and they have to play for that reason. Jordan’s development cannot trump Burrows. Period.

Decisions need to be made through the lens of competing for the play-offs in 2021 and advancing in the play-offs 2022.

Not playing Jordan hurts that. Burrow's developing fine even with Jordan, who was much improved last outing, in the line.

[Yojimbo]

(11-02-2020, 04:49 PM)TJHoushmandzadehs Shiny Shoes Wrote: Decisions need to be made through the lens of competing for the play-offs in 2021 and advancing in the play-offs 2022.

Not playing Jordan hurts that. Burrow's developing fine even with Jordan, who was much improved last outing, in the line.

This is wrong. There is no playoff in the future without Burrow. Burrow’s protection and development has to come first. You’re putting the cart before the horse. Get him through this season, then start focusing on step two.