The Deep Ball

[*SHRacerX*]

(11-04-2020, 11:11 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: As Whatever said, could be the matchups against certain teams. The Titans had small Corners so we brought in Tate as the 
matchup problem and it worked. We will see if we make Tate active against the Steelers even though Haden has done well 
against taller Receivers, Tate sure looked great against the Titans. Don't know how big the rest of the Steelers CB's are this 
year, could be a tell. 

But chemistry is where it is at as you are alluding to. If Burrow is on the same page with Tate, that is what matters.

Burrow and AJ have not been on the same page much.

I love AJ and hope he has just had to take time with all the time he has missed but we need to move on.

Would of been nice to have gotten a pass rusher before the trade dead line, too bad.

The steelers thrive on contact with their coverage teams leading to tipped balls and INTs.  They are probably one of the most physical sets of corners they will face.  We saw what Ward was able to do with Green being very physical with him.  I want the most sure-handed receivers out there to move the chains and prevent turnovers.  Seems like a simple formula, but a lot of that ability with Tate is heightened because of Burrow's accuracy.  We have heard for years how Brady makes all the weapons around him better, and we are seeing the exact same thing now from Burrow.  

Think about it.  How many of us would have predicted the statistics he is projecting to achieve with a declining Green, Boyd, Higgins, Tate, Gio, and Sample as his top targets.  He hasn't had Mixon for two games now, Uzo is out for the season, and Ross never materialized.  He is basically doing it with Boyd, a rookie, Tate, and his RBs.  I won't even get in to the performance of his line.  

[*bengalfan74*]

(11-05-2020, 11:06 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: The steelers thrive on contact with their coverage teams leading to tipped balls and INTs.  They are probably one of the most physical sets of corners they will face.  We saw what Ward was able to do with Green being very physical with him.  I want the most sure-handed receivers out there to move the chains and prevent turnovers.  Seems like a simple formula, but a lot of that ability with Tate is heightened because of Burrow's accuracy.  We have heard for years how Brady makes all the weapons around him better, and we are seeing the exact same thing now from Burrow.  

Think about it.  How many of us would have predicted the statistics he is projecting to achieve with a declining Green, Boyd, Higgins, Tate, Gio, and Sample as his top targets.  He hasn't had Mixon for two games now, Uzo is out for the season, and Ross never materialized.  He is basically doing it with Boyd, a rookie, Tate, and his RBs.  I won't even get in to the performance of his line.  

It's hard for me to believe I'm typing this but I think the WR depth chart vs. Steelers should be Boyd, Higgins, Tate, Thomas, Green.

[Luvnit2]

(11-03-2020, 11:14 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Lol at all the salt in those replies about it only being 2 games.

The point is he’s improving the one area of weakness he had in his game early on.

His rankings among his peers are moving upward each week also.

Joe Burrow is becoming a very good QB in the NFL very quickly.

I am not sure how anyone can't see it who watches him every game.

[Luvnit2]

(11-05-2020, 11:17 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: It's hard for me to believe I'm typing this but I think the WR depth chart vs. Steelers should be Boyd, Higgins, Tate, Thomas, Green.

Thomas is the best blocker in the group. Green will be fine, I see him breaking out in 2nd half of year. Those who trash AJ, I have heard Tee and Tate love him and he mentors both of them. He is another WR coach which can only help these young guys get better.

The WR group appears to be very tight. The NFL WR groups are home to some of the biggest divas in the NFL. It looks like our guys are well grounded.

[*SHRacerX*]

(11-05-2020, 11:17 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: It's hard for me to believe I'm typing this but I think the WR depth chart vs. Steelers should be Boyd, Higgins, Tate, Thomas, Green.

I would still have Green in front of Thomas.  I wonder if Ross will be active.  A few gadget plays designed during the bye?  I know he drives everyone insane, but he does have a special skill set and I would like to see the steelers having to deal with some new stuff they haven't seen on film. 

[Nicomo Cosca]

Yeah, I’ve been down on AJ this season, but in no way should Thomas jump ahead of him. He does still command attention from the better DB’s. Nobody is worried about Mike Thomas.

[*SHRacerX*]

(11-05-2020, 11:17 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: It's hard for me to believe I'm typing this but I think the WR depth chart vs. Steelers should be Boyd, Higgins, Tate, Thomas, Green.

I think it was a huge coaching gaff having their best cover CB put on Green (the Titans).  No one seemed to call that decision out.  Smartest thing this year was Baltimore putting their best guy on Boyd.  I figured we would see more of that after that game.  

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-05-2020, 11:44 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I think it was a huge coaching gaff having their best cover CB put on Green (the Titans).  No one seemed to call that decision out.  Smartest thing this year was Baltimore putting their best guy on Boyd.  I figured we would see more of that after that game.  

I assume not all CB’s are comfortable moving to the slot?

[impactplaya]

Id start Ross over Thomas. Thomas isnt going to.scare Fitzpatrick going deep. Fitzpatrick makes a living patroling the middle of the field reading the QBs eyes. The Bengals need to take Minkah away
From where he does the most daamage. Between.the LBers and Safeties.
Mike Hilton is a beast too. He always comes up.big vs the Bengals.
Joe Hadens play hadnt dropped either.
The Steelers hit hard.all 11 defenders. Tate is needed in.this game.
He can steamroll Hilton and Haden who both go under 200 lbs

[higgy100]

(11-05-2020, 11:53 AM)impactplaya Wrote: Id start Ross over Thomas. Thomas isnt going to.scare Fitzpatrick going deep. Fitzpatrick makes a living patroling the middle of the field reading the QBs eyes. The Bengals need to take Minkah away
From where he does the most daamage. Between.the LBers and Safeties.
Mike Hilton is a beast too. He always comes up.big vs the Bengals.
Joe Hadens play hadnt dropped either.
The Steelers hit hard.all 11 defenders. Tate is needed in.this game.
He can steamroll Hilton and Haden who both go under 200 lbs

For all we know Ross just ain't cutting it in practice either. Thomas is also a ST guy and not playing him and activating Ross means you have to demote somebody else. It's a catch 22.

[*SHRacerX*]

(11-05-2020, 11:49 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I assume not all CB’s are comfortable moving to the slot?

Maybe, but the Ravens moved Marlon Humphrey there.  Green ran some plays out of the slot, and Butler stayed with him wherever he went.  

[Whatever]

(11-05-2020, 11:49 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I assume not all CB’s are comfortable moving to the slot?

Not all CB's are really suited to play the slot.  Not all DC's move their CB's around, either.  They just play right/left boundary or the slot.

The thing people are missing with AJ is he is still drawing a lot of those tough matchups from teams and while he may not be producing great individual stats, he keeps that #1 CB from being matched up against Boyd and Higgins so they can thrive.  

[Joelist]

Raw speed is not as important in what makes a WR great as other things like hands, quickiness and instincts. Scheme also is a factor - KCs offensive scheme helps their receivers get separation - watch the routes they run and the formations they run them out of. And their recievers are both fast AND have reasonably good hands and run their routes correctly.

[Wes Mantooth]

(11-05-2020, 11:56 AM)higgy100 Wrote: Thomas is also a ST guy and not playing him and activating Ross means you have to demote somebody else. It's a catch 22.

Kinda off topic, but I will never understand why we continue to use an active roster spot for Alex Erickson.

Of all our receivers he offers the least in the pass game.  He's a complete non-factor.  He's an average at best punt returner for his career, and he's been below average these past two years.

Why not give his spot to someone else?  Let Brandon Wilson return punts.  Let Gio return punts.  Let Ross return punts. 

Wilson is widely talented, and could use more touches.  Gio was an amazing punt returner in college his last season.  Averaged over 16 yards a return and took two to the house.  He could also use more touches.  Ross also has return experience in college, and is a complete freak from a speed perspective.  Maybe we could actually get something out of him this way?

Alex Erickson has pretty much zero value that I can see.  There's got to be someone else on that 55 man roster that can get you 9 yards a return.  To have a guy like Auden Tate inactive for a game while having this guy being an automatic seems incredibly stupid to me.  He stinks.

[Hoofhearted]

(11-05-2020, 02:47 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Kinda off topic, but I will never understand why we continue to use an active roster spot for Alex Erickson.

Of all our receivers he offers the least in the pass game.  He's a complete non-factor.  He's an average at best punt returner for his career, and he's been below average these past two years.

Why not give his spot to someone else?  Let Brandon Wilson return punts.  Let Gio return punts.  Let Ross return punts. 

Wilson is widely talented, and could use more touches.  Gio was an amazing punt returner in college his last season.  Averaged over 16 yards a return and took two to the house.  He could also use more touches.  Ross also has return experience in college, and is a complete freak from a speed perspective.  Maybe we could actually get something out of him this way?

Alex Erickson has pretty much zero value that I can see.  There's got to be someone else on that 55 man roster that can get you 9 yards a return.  To have a guy like Auden Tate inactive for a game while having this guy being an automatic seems incredibly stupid to me.  He stinks.

Erickson was 14th in punt return last year and currently sits 8th this year. Not earth shattering, but he's average to above average punt returner. He's raised his average from 6.2 to 9.3 yards per return from last year, so he's shown some progress with that.

[Whatever]

(11-05-2020, 02:47 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Kinda off topic, but I will never understand why we continue to use an active roster spot for Alex Erickson.

Of all our receivers he offers the least in the pass game.  He's a complete non-factor.  He's an average at best punt returner for his career, and he's been below average these past two years.

Why not give his spot to someone else?  Let Brandon Wilson return punts.  Let Gio return punts.  Let Ross return punts. 

Wilson is widely talented, and could use more touches.  Gio was an amazing punt returner in college his last season.  Averaged over 16 yards a return and took two to the house.  He could also use more touches.  Ross also has return experience in college, and is a complete freak from a speed perspective.  Maybe we could actually get something out of him this way?

Alex Erickson has pretty much zero value that I can see.  There's got to be someone else on that 55 man roster that can get you 9 yards a return.  To have a guy like Auden Tate inactive for a game while having this guy being an automatic seems incredibly stupid to me.  He stinks.

Erickson is 7th in PR yards and 6th in average. It doesn't make a lot of sense to bench a top PR for a WR that might get 1-2 targets a game.

PR and KR are extremely different.  On a KR, you have plenty of space and time to field the ball, view the field, and set up your blocks.  On a PR, you've got guys in your face as you're trying to catch it and you also have to make a quick decision on a fair catch or not.  DB's like Wilson don't have the best hands typically, so having them return punts is dicey.

[Wes Mantooth]

(11-05-2020, 02:54 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Erickson was 14th in punt return last year and currently sits 8th this year. Not earth shattering, but he's average to above average punt returner. He's raised his average from 6.2 to 9.3 yards per return from last year, so he's shown some progress with that.

I think when you look up punt return stats you have to be careful in how you view them.  Some sites only list a smaller number due to qualifiers.  Some sites sort by total yards and some sort by average.

On Pro Football Reference, they default to a qualifyer of a minimum of 20 returns, and only 15 players met that mark in 2019.  Alex Erickson ranked 12th out of 15th in YPR.

When not using a qualifier, and accounting for all punt returners, he ranks 47th.

The number you're referring to, I believe, is total return yards, where he does rank 14th.  The problem with that is that he was actually 8th in attempts. 

Fwiw, here are his yearly ranks with PFR's qualifiers:

Alex Erickson

2016 - 18th out of 21
2017 - 20th out of 25
2018 -  9th out of 19
2019 - 12th out of 15
2020 -  6th out of 16

IMHO, he's just not good enough to take up on spot on PR skills alone.  We've 3 bottom of the barrel years, with one average year, and one slightly above average year, that has yet to be completed.

He's had ZERO TD's in 5 years of handing PR duties.  He's never even hit a 40 yard return.  His long's per season tell me he has very limited big play ability: 24, 29, 38, 17, and 22

A lot of people may point to reliabilty, and that even though he's not dynamic, he holds on to the ball.  Except, he put the ball on the ground 4 times last year.  I can't find the exact stat for PR alone, but i believe he was near the top in PR fumbles in 2019.

To each their own, I just think the guy is a complete waste of a spot.  And that fact we're paying him 2.5 million dollars only adds insult to injury.

[Wes Mantooth]

(11-05-2020, 03:04 PM)Whatever Wrote: Erickson is 7th in PR yards and 6th in average. It doesn't make a lot of sense to bench a top PR for a WR that might get 1-2 targets a game.

PR and KR are extremely different.  On a KR, you have plenty of space and time to field the ball, view the field, and set up your blocks.  On a PR, you've got guys in your face as you're trying to catch it and you also have to make a quick decision on a fair catch or not.  DB's like Wilson don't have the best hands typically, so having them return punts is dicey.

IMHO, he's not nearly good enough at returning punts to keep a spot solely to do that.  If you go through his 5 years he well below average in yards per return.  He he has no big play abillity.  And he was near the top of the league in fumbles last season.

If you're going to carve out a spot for a guy just to return punts then they should at least be above average at it.  I would think, out off 54 others guys, we could find someone to match these ranks:

18th out of 21
20th out of 25
9th out of 19
12th out of 15
6th out of 16

*NO TD's, limited big returns, multiple fumbles.

[Hoofhearted]

(11-05-2020, 03:29 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I think when you look up punt return stats you have to be careful in how you view them.  Some sites only list a smaller number due to qualifiers.  Some sites sort by total yards and some sort by average.

On Pro Football Reference, they default to a qualifyer of a minimum of 20 returns, and only 15 players met that mark in 2019.  Alex Erickson ranked 12th out of 15th in YPR.

When not using a qualifier, and accounting for all punt returners, he ranks 47th.

The number you're referring to, I believe, is total return yards, where he does rank 14th.  The problem with that is that he was actually 8th in attempts. 

Fwiw, here are his yearly ranks with PFR's qualifiers:

Alex Erickson

2016 - 18th out of 21
2017 - 20th out of 25
2018 -  9th out of 19
2019 - 12th out of 15
2020 -  6th out of 16

IMHO, he's just not good enough to take up on spot on PR skills alone.  We've 3 bottom of the barrel years, with one average year, and one slightly above average year, that has yet to be completed.

He's had ZERO TD's in 5 years of handing PR duties.  He's never even hit a 40 yard return.  His long's per season tell me he has very limited big play ability: 24, 29, 38, 17, and 22

A lot of people may point to reliabilty, and that even though he's not dynamic, he holds on to the ball.  Except, he put the ball on the ground 4 times last year.  I can't find the exact stat for PR alone, but i believe he was near the top in PR fumbles in 2019.

To each their own, I just think the guy is a complete waste of a spot.  And that fact we're paying him 2.5 million dollars only adds insult to injury.

Good point about qualifiers. Not just PR, but he also can come in a pinch for WR duties. He has 82 receptions, almost a thousand yards and a 61% catch %. He's an emergency WR option who plays ST. It's not an unforgivable use of a 55 man roster spot. Gotta remember he was also undrafted, so if anything he's slightly overachieved. 

[higgy100]

(11-05-2020, 02:47 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Kinda off topic, but I will never understand why we continue to use an active roster spot for Alex Erickson.

Of all our receivers he offers the least in the pass game.  He's a complete non-factor.  He's an average at best punt returner for his career, and he's been below average these past two years.

Why not give his spot to someone else?  Let Brandon Wilson return punts.  Let Gio return punts.  Let Ross return punts. 

Wilson is widely talented, and could use more touches.  Gio was an amazing punt returner in college his last season.  Averaged over 16 yards a return and took two to the house.  He could also use more touches.  Ross also has return experience in college, and is a complete freak from a speed perspective.  Maybe we could actually get something out of him this way?

Alex Erickson has pretty much zero value that I can see.  There's got to be someone else on that 55 man roster that can get you 9 yards a return.  To have a guy like Auden Tate inactive for a game while having this guy being an automatic seems incredibly stupid to me.  He stinks.

I would have disagreed with you prior to last year as he was both a pretty good PR and an even better KR. He was very decisive and made his move vertical. Starting last year he also fumbled at least a couple times in both facets, iirc, and now unless they just value sure hands that's all he's giving them.

Is that really enough, at the expense of working with multiple other players that you list, to keep him around?