Zak needs 1 more year to change culture

[Wes Mantooth]

(11-19-2020, 10:52 AM)ochocincos Wrote: If I told my upline management that I needed 3+ years to change the culture, they'd laugh in my face and tell me we can't wait that long for that.

Just tell them you needed an evaluation year or three.  Then follow it up with a bunch cliches about how you're really building something here, and clients are really buying into your philosophies.  Works everytime. 

I pulled this off at my current job.  The sales guy I replaced was hitting about 60k a month in sales.  They fired his ass because a lot of the top reps do 100k plus and he had a number of below average years.

Well, my first year I did 20k with his accounts.  Bosses called me in at the end of the year, and I just told them I needed a year to really figure out which accounts to target, and that I really needed to evaluate my entire base.  They loved it.  They said they knew this was going to be the case, and to keep up the good work.

Year 2 I'm now sitting at the same 20k in sales towards the end of the year.  I may even reach 30, or 40, or even 50k by years end!  Just had a meeting with the big wigs, and I regurgitated a bunch of balogna I read in How to Win Friends and Influence People.  Guess what?  They ate that shit up.

I just got a new contract for a 3rd year.  They know I'm really building something here.  Sure, I might be the lowest selling rep in my entire division, but big things are around corner!  

[*ochocincos*]

(11-19-2020, 02:09 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Just tell them you needed an evaluation year or three.  Then follow it up with a bunch cliches about how you're really building something here, and clients are really buying into your philosophies.  Works everytime. 

I pulled this off at my current job.  The sales guy I replaced was hitting about 60k a month in sales.  They fired his ass because a lot of the top reps do 100k plus and he had a number of below average years.

Well, my first year I did 20k with his accounts.  Bosses called me in at the end of the year, and I just told them I needed a year to really figure out which accounts to target, and that I really needed to evaluate my entire base.  They loved it.  They said they knew this was going to be the case, and to keep up the good work.

Year 2 I'm now sitting at the same 20k in sales towards the end of the year.  I may even reach 30, or 40, or even 50k by years end!  Just had a meeting with the big wigs, and I regurgitated a bunch of balogna I read in How to Win Friends and Influence People.  Guess what?  They ate that shit up.

I just got a new contract for a 3rd year.  They know I'm really building something here.  Sure, I might be the lowest selling rep in my entire division, but big things are around corner!  

I'm not quite the salesperson that Zac Taylor is 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-19-2020, 11:57 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: ML and ZT have very similar situations. ML got the #1 pick in the NFL draft and ZT got a number 1 pick in the NFL draft. Why relevant? It means both early in their careers took over the worst team (record) in the NFL so both had very bad rosters.

I am not saying cut ZT lose, but if you look at ML progress versus ZT progress early in their Bengals careers, ML is way ahead. We have a a very weak rest of the schedule, 5-2 is possible and 4-3 should be expected. If that does not happen, then why should team give Zac more time? Does a 2 win and then a 5 win (assuming he only goes 3-4) coach deserve anything?

The weird thing about this team is they seem to like each other and appear to give it 100%. At least the young guys do, Green, Dunlap and Geno being the major exceptions, the high paid guys so go figure?

Agreed. I think one major difference though is that Marv inherited a damn good offensive line....whereas Zac got 3 bums, an unknown in Williams, and a decent guy in Hopkins. You saw how bad this team was offensively without a Joe Burrow under center. It was unwatchable. 2018 wasn't much better.

I'm with you, if he can't win 3 more games, then see ya. I have liked the direction the offense has taken since the line has gotten a tad better, and with the mobile JB.  Last year, you couldn't really open any of the playbook up. The line was that bad....and the QBs couldn't get out of the way.

[Wes Mantooth]

(11-19-2020, 04:46 PM)Wyche Wrote: I'm with you, if he can't win 3 more games, then see ya.

I'm with you on this number.  If he finished under 5 wins total it shouldn't even be a question of whether or not he should be here. 

There is absolutely no excuse for winning 6 or less games over 2 seasons.  Almost anywhere else and that gets you being shown the door.

This franchise needs to be very careful with how they set their standards.  They've always been lower than most, but this would not be a good look.  You're essentially telling everyone in the entire building that less than is ok here.  And I don't care how much he claims people are buying into his program or any of that.  You retain a coach like that and that lack of standards permeates throughout the entire building.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(11-16-2020, 12:27 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Nah I’ve seen enough. He made too big a leap from position coach to HC. Should have been a OC somewhere first.

We can’t waste Burrow’s rookie contract waiting on him to learn on the job.

Shit, he shouldn't of even been an OC....

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(11-19-2020, 04:46 PM)Wyche Wrote: Agreed. I think one major difference though is that Marv inherited a damn good offensive line....whereas Zac got 3 bums, an unknown in Williams, and a decent guy in Hopkins. You saw how bad this team was offensively without a Joe Burrow under center. It was unwatchable. 2018 wasn't much better.

I'm with you, if he can't win 3 more games, then see ya. I have liked the direction the offense has taken since the line has gotten a tad better, and with the mobile JB.  Last year, you couldn't really open any of the playbook up. The line was that bad....and the QBs couldn't get out of the way.

Even with a Joe Burrow under center the Bengals have the 22nd scoring offense in the NFL. 

Also almost certainly going to get swept in the division (unless the Ravens sit their starters Week 17).



- - - - - - -
Interesting stat worth keeping an eye on since you mentioned mobility and being able to get out of the way... 

Joe Burrow is on pace to get sacked 57 times this year.

If you take his sack rate at LSU (with a talented OL and amazing run game) and put it to the number of attempts he's throwing in 2020, he would be on pace to have 50 sacks.

Sure a 7 sack difference is big, but those are both still huge totals.

Yes the OL is bad, but this also legitimately might just be Joe Burrow. A guy who takes a lot of sacks. (Even more so if he's throwing a ton.)

[Always a Bengal]

(11-16-2020, 12:25 AM)SuperBowlBound! Wrote: I know emotions run high during Steelers week but we will never be any good with a losing culture.
It is not easy to change players who prefer the previous regime over the current regime.

Zak used the first year to analyze the personnel. The second year was used to make the first round of changes.
Geno, Ross, Dunlap, Jackson III and AJ will not be around next year. That saves at least over 50 mil in contracts.
They will use that money to sign key free agents like a OG, OT, DE's or CB's.

I see positive things happening for this team.

Next year we will have Reader, Waynes, Uzomah back from injuries.
I think Adenji and Spain played well at Tackles today.
We could have Jonah Williams to RT and have Adenji stay at LT with Spain RG, Jordan LG Hopkins C.
If we get a high draft pick I would select Micah Parsons to play M-LB.

If next year at the break we do not see a big improvement than a coaching change may be needed.

Changing the culture! Yeah to a loosing culture! Give me a break! This team was 6-10 when he took over and is showing no improvement.The defense is atrocious. We wouldn't have been close in any games if it wasn't for Joe Burrow.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-19-2020, 09:58 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Even with a Joe Burrow under center the Bengals have the 22nd scoring offense in the NFL. 

Also almost certainly going to get swept in the division (unless the Ravens sit their starters Week 17).



- - - - - - -
Interesting stat worth keeping an eye on since you mentioned mobility and being able to get out of the way... 

Joe Burrow is on pace to get sacked 57 times this year.

If you take his sack rate at LSU (with a talented OL and amazing run game) and put it to the number of attempts he's throwing in 2020, he would be on pace to have 50 sacks.

Sure a 7 sack difference is big, but those are both still huge totals.

Yes the OL is bad, but this also legitimately might just be Joe Burrow. A guy who takes a lot of sacks. (Even more so if he's throwing a ton.)

That's a good point....and Burrow is prone to hold the ball too long looking to make things happen. 

That said, it seems I recall Dalton being sacked a shit ton over the last two years as well. Wasn't it like 8 sacks against Shitsburgh last year? Dude even threw his helmet through the Gatorade coolers during that game. I had never seen him get that upset. This line has been trash since 2016.

Last year they averaged around 17 I think? We're up 5 points a game with the three low scoring affairs. Otherwise, it's been 30 or more. They barely broke 21 in any game last season, save for the Miami game. Raw stats don't tell the entire story here....the offense is definitely playing better this season. And it's basically with two WRs and that's it.

[SuperBowlBound!]

(11-19-2020, 10:06 PM)Always a Bengal Wrote: Changing the culture! Yeah to a loosing culture! Give me a break! This team was 6-10 when he took over and is showing no improvement.The defense is atrocious. We wouldn't have been close in any games if it wasn't for Joe Burrow.

We could  have stayed 6-10 if you want dto keep that team with Kirkpatrick and the other problems.

I want them to win a Super Bowl before I die. That means the headache players and Dalton had to leave.
The Bengals have had a losing culture for most of the years in existence.

I am hoping that all gets changed. We have tried everything else.

[Sled21]

(11-20-2020, 09:36 AM)SuperBowlBound! Wrote: We could  have stayed 6-10 if you want dto keep that team with Kirkpatrick and the other problems.

I want them to win a Super Bowl before I die. That means the headache players and Dalton had to leave.
The Bengals have had a losing culture for most of the years in existence.

I am hoping that all gets changed. We have tried everything else.

Evidently it has to happen overnight....

[RiverRat13]

From what I've read, Mike Brown loved Carlos Dunlap. You'd think that Carlos making an immediate impact in Seattle while doing next to nothing this year while a Bengal can't go unnoticed by Mikey.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-20-2020, 12:00 PM)RiverRat13 Wrote: From what I've read, Mike Brown loved Carlos Dunlap.  You'd think that Carlos making an immediate impact in Seattle while doing next to nothing this year while a Bengal can't go unnoticed by Mikey.

It made me grumble under my breath last night, that's for sure.

[Wes Mantooth]

(11-20-2020, 12:00 PM)RiverRat13 Wrote: From what I've read, Mike Brown loved Carlos Dunlap.  You'd think that Carlos making an immediate impact in Seattle while doing next to nothing this year while a Bengal can't go unnoticed by Mikey.

It's a shame that love was one-sided.

Mike Brown made Carlos Dunlap a very rich man.  He chose to draft him and take the risk when he fell in the draft.  He rewarded him with not one, but two very generous contract extensions.  He loved him so much he decided to hang on to him when the overwhelming majority of other GM's would have either shipped him off last season, or released him, to save cap space.

His reward for his love?  A player who often gave poor effort, who ultimately quit on his team mid-season, and who publicly dragged team employees.  Not to mention, he was hit with accussations of "not doing enough", in regards to race relations, during one of the most tense moments in recent history (Mike Brown was doing just as much as every other owner, there was no need to insert him in the middle of this).

Mike Brown got completely played.  Carlos Dunlap took advantage of him, and is now putting on full display that he wasn't even trying here.  It's a shame.

[fredtoast]

(11-20-2020, 01:43 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote:   He loved him so much he decided to hang on to him when the overwhelming majority of other GM's would have either shipped him off last season, or released him, to save cap space.

Once Dunlap got healthy last year he was one of the most productive DEs in the league over the last half of the season.  I don't think any GM would have shipped him off.

(11-20-2020, 01:43 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote:   A player who often gave poor effort,

Not true until this year.  His production over the course of his career was high level and consistent.  The only fans that don't like him are the ones who don't know any other way to measure production from a DE than sacks.

It is kind of silly to judge a player's entire performance on a stat where every DE in the league other then Hall-of-famers average less than one sack per game over their careers.  

[Wes Mantooth]

(11-20-2020, 02:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Once Dunlap got healthy last year he was one of the most productive DEs in the league over the last half of the season.  I don't think any GM would have shipped him off.

If you don't think any GM would have traded a 31 year DE, who was making 11 million dollars, who was currently playing for a team who was 0-8 at the trade deadline (10/31), then you don't know anything about how this league works.

Wanna know how many sacks he had at the trade deadline?  He had 1.

Wanna know how many sacks he had after the trade dealine?  He had 8.

This "one of the most productive DE's in the league over the last half of the season" you're describing came AFTER the trade deadline.  This came after we decided "we can't get rid of this guy:

There's a reason his name was attatched to so many trade discussions, it's because he was the type of player that often gets shopped during the season.  Aging vet + big contract + limited production + rebuilding team usually = on the trade market.

The idea that no other GM trades Carlos Dunlap last year is pure insanity. 

[Wes Mantooth]

(11-20-2020, 02:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Not true until this year.  His production over the course of his career was high level and consistent.  The only fans that don't like him are the ones who don't know any other way to measure production from a DE than sacks.

It is kind of silly to judge a player's entire performance on a stat where every DE in the league other then Hall-of-famers average less than one sack per game over their careers.  

I actually replied to you in another thread trying to make my case and to dispute this.  The thread was either deleted or moved, because when I hit post it was gone.  I'm way too lazy to go back and redo the whole thing, but the numbers are there.

I looked at 2019, 2018, and 2017.  We're not talking about game to game variations, we're talking about enormous chunks of each season.

I know do remember that last year 62% his of sacks (5.5) came in only 12% (2) of the games.  He had only 1 sack through the first 8 games, and had 8 through the final 8 games.

The other years are very similar.  One half of the year he'll do very little, and the other half he'll bring his numbers up.  And this isn't just for sacks either, you can look at TckFL, QB hits, and you'll see the some very strange variations in production.

[Luvnit2]

(11-20-2020, 01:43 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: It's a shame that love was one-sided.

Mike Brown made Carlos Dunlap a very rich man.  He chose to draft him and take the risk when he fell in the draft.  He rewarded him with not one, but two very generous contract extensions.  He loved him so much he decided to hang on to him when the overwhelming majority of other GM's would have either shipped him off last season, or released him, to save cap space.

His reward for his love?  A player who often gave poor effort, who ultimately quit on his team mid-season, and who publicly dragged team employees.  Not to mention, he was hit with accussations of "not doing enough", in regards to race relations, during one of the most tense moments in recent history (Mike Brown was doing just as much as every other owner, there was no need to insert him in the middle of this).

Mike Brown got completely played.  Carlos Dunlap took advantage of him, and is now putting on full display that he wasn't even trying here.  It's a shame.

I call BS

I was a season ticket holder until a couple of years ago. There was not one guy on our team that gave more every play than Dunlap, during commercials those not there did not see was him ramping up the crowd. Simply, the HC and new DC are morons and have no idea how to use talents like Dunlap.

Dunlap was high energy and high effort, it is BS to say otherwise. He played here a long time, he earned his money while our coaching staff of ZT regime have not.

[Luvnit2]

(11-20-2020, 03:19 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I actually replied to you in another thread trying to make my case and to dispute this.  The thread was either deleted or moved, because when I hit post it was gone.  I'm way too lazy to go back and redo the whole thing, but the numbers are there.

I looked at 2019, 2018, and 2017.  We're not talking about game to game variations, we're talking about enormous chunks of each season.

I know do remember that last year 62% his of sacks (5.5) came in only 12% (2) of the games.  He had only 1 sack through the first 8 games, and had 8 through the final 8 games.

The other years are very similar.  One half of the year he'll do very little, and the other half he'll bring his numbers up.  And this isn't just for sacks either, you can look at TckFL, QB hits, and you'll see the some very strange variations in production.

How many games did you see him play in person?

My guess is none or very few. Again, high energy and high effort player. I guess you forget all the tackle and fumble plays he created chasing RB's down through pure effort.

[Wes Mantooth]

(11-20-2020, 03:52 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I call BS

I was a season ticket holder until a couple of years ago. There was not one guy on our team that gave more every play than Dunlap, during commercials those not there did not see was him ramping up the crowd. Simply, the HC and new DC are morons and have no idea how to use talents like Dunlap.

Dunlap was high energy and high effort, it is BS to say otherwise. He played here a long time, he earned his money while our coaching staff of ZT regime have not.

I'm not the only one who's noticed this, or brought this up.  If you don't want to take my word for it, I don't blame you.  I'm just an anonymous schmuck on a message board.

But would you take AJ Hawk's?  The 11 year NFL LB, who actually played with Dunlap here in Cincinnati.  He's on Pat McAfee's podcast and recently they were discussing Carlos and this is how he basically described him...

"Carlos is a physcial freak of nature, but I think his thing is he kind of picks and chooses when he actually wants to turn it on".  (Paraphrased)

If you don't buy his explanation, what about the countless other people in the media who have pointed it out?  What about PFF grades from game to game?

If take the comments from a former player, countless writers, PFF grades, and just taking the time to look through his stat sheet, you'll see he was widely inconsistent these past few years.  The last two years especially.

Look at the first half of 2019 and then compare it to the second half. He did dick all through the first 8 weeks. Look at the 2nd half of 2018 and compare it to the first. You'll significant levels of disparity in performance.

And just to be clear, I wasn't speaking on his effort during commercials, or his ability to hype up the crowd.  I'm talking about in-game effort.

[Wes Mantooth]

(11-20-2020, 03:54 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: How many games did you see him play in person?

My guess is none or very few. Again, high energy and high effort player. I guess you forget all the tackle and fumble plays he created chasing RB's down through pure effort.

I haven't been a season ticket holder since 2009, so not many.  I think I've been to 4 or 5 Bengals game since 2010, and none in the last 3 years.

Not sure this is at all relevant though.  I can actually get a much, much better judgement on a single player's performance watching the game on my 55 inch High Def TV than I ever could have when I went down there every week.