Is this really on the front office?

[sonofstat]

As opinions go this might not be too popular....but screw it its late and I'm deep into the scotch bottle

This thread is not on the original decision to hire ZT - that clearly is on the Front Office.

However, when ZT was hired there was a view that as rookie head coach gigs go actually he was in a good spot.

1. Ownership that was loyal - to a fault
2. Cupboard not bare with talent left over from playoff teams - Atkins, Green, Mixon, Dunlap, Boyd, Dunlap, Bates, Eifert, Gio, Hubbard
3. Capable , proven starting QB in Dalton
4. Inherited a stable locker room culture which consistently played hard under Marv even in tough times
5. Was backed by Front office to bring in 'his guys' onto coaching staff...believe only Simmons was a requested carryover
6. Loosened the purse strings and actually been somewhat active in Free agency
7. Low expectation/pressure from a smaller market franchise and media

Even when his team failed miserably in year 1...

7. Sucked so bad that we got #1 pick in the year a franchise QB/Joe Burrow was consensus first pick

With all the above and with the atrocious 2 year record we are heading towards I really do put this squarely on ZT's door step.

I know its easy to lay out the usual F/O blame and say 30 years of Mike Brown , Tobin's historical draft record , tight with spending, etc ,etc and normally I would be sympathetic but this is sooo bad and actually ZT was in a decent spot for an unproven rookie and he has just completely squandered the opportunity to date.

[BengalsRocker]

Why can't it be both?

We're stuck with the FO.

Taylor had zero results to be qualified for the job.

That is your answer.

[samhain]

I'm actually going trying to lay off of the family this time around. They actually stepped outside their comfort zone with Zac.

They gave him a chance to build his own staff. They even opened up the checkbook to get players he and his guys wanted. This was a major shift in how they generally operate.

Hell, they even sat around and let the staff crap on one of the best players they've had for the last decade, then run him out of town. That's not the classic Bengal loyalty.

I hope this seemingly failed experiment doesn't discourage them. You can't claim that they didn't attempt drastic change. They seem to want to fix things, they just aren't all that great at it.

Hopefully they can shitcan these third (fourth? fifth?) rate clowns and make a better decision in the next coaching search.

[SunsetBengal]

Hmm, I hold the family completely accountable. Had they acknowledged the fact that none of them are Football Geniuses, at any point over the past 34 years, and just turned Football Operations over to an actual GM at any time along the way, we likely wouldn't be in this mess right now.

[J24]

1.) Who hired the coach?

2.) Have any of their signings from this been good or have had a major impact.

Reader- Hurt- was somewhat effective but wasn't a star when he played
Waynes- Hurt
Green- Disappointing especially for 18 million
Bell- So so
Bynes- So so
Xsf- Hurt
Mixon- doesn't look like he was worth the money + Hurt
The off-season additions haven't been good so far some of that is bad luck but some of it is poor scouting as well.

[Sled21]

(11-26-2020, 10:00 PM)J24 Wrote: 1.) Who hired the coach?

2.) Have any of their signings from this  been good or have had a major impact.

Reader- Hurt- was somewhat effective but wasn't a star when he played
Waynes- Hurt
Green- Disappointing especially for 18 million
Bell- So so
Bynes- So so
Xsf- Hurt
Mixon- doesn't look like he was worth the money + Hurt
The off-season additions haven't been good so far some of that is bad luck but some of it is poor scouting as well.

Don't forget Prince, another Guard that was brought in, but then opted out. The fact players get hurt after being brought in is no one's fault, it's luck of the draw.

[ezekiel23]

The FO really got after it in free agency.I was impressed.Now fire Zac,and impress me again.It’s time.

[Bengalholic]

(11-26-2020, 09:13 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Hmm, I hold the family completely accountable.  Had they acknowledged the fact that none of them are Football Geniuses, at any point over the past 34 years, and just turned Football Operations over to an actual GM at any time along the way, we likely wouldn't be in this mess right now.

If the front office had a qualified person making the football related decisions...I can't imagine they would've said 'let's draft a QB at 1OA, then spend big time in free agency, but only 7% of it will go towards the o-line, to sign one mediocre G'.

[samhain]

(11-26-2020, 10:00 PM)J24 Wrote: 1.) Who hired the coach?

2.) Have any of their signings from this  been good or have had a major impact.

Reader- Hurt- was somewhat effective but wasn't a star when he played
Waynes- Hurt
Green- Disappointing especially for 18 million
Bell- So so
Bynes- So so
Xsf- Hurt
Mixon- doesn't look like he was worth the money + Hurt
The off-season additions haven't been good so far some of that is bad luck but some of it is poor scouting as well.

Reader was doing what he got paid to do pretty well before the injury.  

Waynes, who knows?

Green was a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.  If we let him go and he tore it up elsewhere, we'd be crapping on them, and by we I mean me, too.  You had to see what he had left, and they did so without a long term commitment.  Wash.

Bell is bad in coverage but good vs the run.  We knew that going in.  He's around the ball a lot.  His last few games have been better.

Bynes, meh.  

XSF is a pedestrian signing, but I wish he was out there.

Mixon's situation is unfortunate.

Not mentioned: Alexander has looked good to me.  I'd like to see him re-signed in the offseason.

The family did a half-measure version of what many have always wanted.  They trusted a coach and gave him power and resources to do what he thought needed to be done.  They just gave the keys to the wrong guy.  

I half wonder of they did this knowing it would fail epically and justify their traditional way of doing things.  I doubt that is the case, though.  I think things have been shitty for this team long enough that they want to turn it around.  They just aren't very good at it.  

[SunsetBengal]

(11-26-2020, 11:33 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: If the front office had a qualified person making the football related decisions...I can't imagine they would've said 'let's draft a QB at 1OA, then big time in free agency, but only 7% of it will go towards the o-line, to sign one mediocre G'.

Exactly.  They have been trying to sell us on the notion that they have "everything under control" on the strength of a couple lucky drafts by Duke Tobin, and Katie and Troy's ability to make the numbers work and persuade good athletes to take less than they could get, in order to make the team better.

It worked for a few years, when we had a coach that players bought into.  But, now that he's gone, it's back to the same as it was prior to his time with the team..

They need to just swallow the pride, and hire a damn GM.

[*jason*]

(11-26-2020, 09:13 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Hmm, I hold the family completely accountable. Had they acknowledged the fact that none of them are Football Geniuses, at any point over the past 34 years, and just turned Football Operations over to an actual GM at any time along the way, we likely wouldn't be in this mess right now.

This...

But the OP does have a point. They gave this dude all he could ask for, and he's done diddly poo with it.

[WhoDave72]

Failed experiment by ownership, I understand their thinking and commend them for taking the risk.

What I dont understand is their pride and unwillingness to hire a GM. They haven't won a playoff game in 30 years.

[*rfaulk34*]

In for a penny, in for a pound. 

I've changed my tune. This team is neck deep in the commitments they've made the last couple years and with the massive amount of injuries--you know how they operate--i'm sure they're convinced that their luck has to change next year, so don't expect too many changes besides a couple assistants (up to and including coordinators). 

Shore up the Oline, replace DC and Oline coach, get some guys back healthy and roll it again next year. They've come this far...why stop now?

I don't know if anyone has seen the UFA list for this offseason but it's going to be a busy (and maybe even interesting) one. There could be a pretty massive overhaul of the roster for next year. 

I'm almost ready to say "bank on it". 

[Tony]

Yes it is.. 1000%

[Tony]

(11-26-2020, 11:59 PM)WhoDave72 Wrote: Failed experiment by ownership, I understand their thinking and commend them for taking the risk.

What I dont understand is their pride and unwillingness to hire a GM. They haven't won a playoff game in 30 years.

What about the scout department? We wander how we miss on so many picks ESP. O-LINE.. We have like 3 scouts... Ridiculous... That right there points to cutting corners and you don't win cutting corners...

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-27-2020, 12:20 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: In for a penny, in for a pound. 

I've changed my tune. This team is neck deep in the commitments they've made the last couple years and with the massive amount of injuries--you know how they operate--i'm sure they're convinced that their luck has to change next year, so don't expect too many changes besides a couple assistants (up to and including coordinators). 

Shore up the Oline, replace DC and Oline coach, get some guys back healthy and roll it again next year. They've come this far...why stop now?

I don't know if anyone has seen the UFA list for this offseason but it's going to be a busy (and maybe even interesting) one. There could be a pretty massive overhaul of the roster for next year. 

I'm almost ready to say "bank on it". 

This is my view as well. Add some more scouts....upgrade some assistants, get oline help, and see what shakes out. Honestly, once Joe got accustomed to getting rid of the ball, the offense started moving the ball at will in most games. Hell, they did it a couple times even when he was hanging on to the ball a bit too long behind this line trying to make something happen. If they ever give Joe time, he's gonna put up some astronomic numbers IMO. Make a move at LBer again, and the D should be in good shape when healthy and coached up.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-27-2020, 12:37 AM)Tony Wrote: What about the scout department? We wander how we miss on so many picks ESP. O-LINE.. We have like 3 scouts... Ridiculous... That right there points to cutting corners and you don't win cutting corners...

The misses on oline were due to Paul Alexander's scouting and lobbying for those picks. Fisher, Ogbuehi were on him, I think he was fired just before Price. 2 1sts and a 2nd... all busts. That really hurt that unit. Big time. It takes a couple good drafts and some FA help to overcome that. The only problem, the FO has been hit or miss on dealing cash for FA linemen. It's rare that they do. I mean, Son of Paul once asked "why should I pay for linemen?"

[Housh]

(11-26-2020, 07:55 PM)sonofstat Wrote: As opinions go this might not be too popular....but screw it its late and I'm deep into the scotch bottle  

This thread is not on the original decision to hire ZT - that clearly is on the Front Office.

However, when ZT was hired there was a view that as rookie head coach gigs go actually he was in a good spot.  

1. Ownership that was loyal - to a fault
2. Cupboard not bare with talent left over from playoff teams - Atkins, Green, Mixon, Dunlap, Boyd, Dunlap, Bates, Eifert, Gio, Hubbard
3. Capable , proven starting QB in Dalton
4. Inherited a stable locker room culture which consistently played hard under Marv even in tough times
5. Was backed by Front office to bring in 'his guys' onto coaching staff...believe only Simmons was a requested carryover
6. Loosened the purse strings and actually been somewhat active in Free agency
7. Low expectation/pressure from a smaller market franchise and media

Even when his team failed miserably in year 1...

7. Sucked so bad  that we got #1 pick in the year a franchise QB/Joe Burrow was consensus first pick

With all the above and with the atrocious 2 year record we are heading towards I really do put this squarely on ZT's door step.

I know its easy to lay out the usual F/O blame and say 30 years of Mike Brown ,  Tobin's historical draft record , tight with spending, etc ,etc and normally I would be sympathetic but this is sooo bad and actually ZT was in a decent spot for an unproven rookie and he has just completely squandered the opportunity to date.

Posts like this make me feel like Mike Brown hires agents to post here

[BengalChris]

Front office hired a guy who talked a lot, but had zero history of success as a coach.

Should Taylor be fired? Yes, absolutely. The sooner the better.

Should there be changes to the front office? Yes, absolutely, but there won't be.

[samhain]

(11-27-2020, 02:20 AM)BengalChris Wrote: Front office hired a guy who talked a lot, but had zero history of success as a coach.

Should Taylor be fired? Yes, absolutely. The sooner the better.

Should there be changes to the front office? Yes, absolutely, but there won't be.

That's it right there, 100%.

We need another Marvin-caliber hire.  We may forget, but when he came here he was THE number 1 candidate for a HC job, and a guy that was due for a promotion for a year or two.  He could have had any job available that year.  People groaned when Mike Brown wanted Coughlin over him. He presided over feared, swarming defenses that smothered opponents and was arguably the most respected DC in football.  He ran the defense that was basically overshadowed only by the 85 Bears in the historical sense.  

We don't need to get cute and hire some guy that's riding the coattails of the flavor of the year.  We need to compete and hire a guy that is respected enough to build a real staff and get respect from veteran players.  

Marvin's faults were exposed n the long run, but you'll have that over a 13 year span with this front office.  He was a terrific hire compared to the shit show we have now.  Even without the freedom Taylor had with free agents and staff hires, he made something of this team.