Roster Updates

[Sled21]

(12-02-2020, 05:18 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote:  More signings like Reader, and less like XSF.

Why the hate on XFS? Both he and Reader played well then had their seasons cut short. XFS graded our top lineman in the one game he played, and he cost a fraction of what Reader costs. If we sign Thuney, we'll need some cheaper solid options like XFS. Inuries like ankle sprains are just luck of the draw.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-02-2020, 06:40 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Why the hate on XFS? Both he and Reader played well then had their seasons cut short. XFS graded our top lineman in the one game he played, and he cost a fraction of what Reader costs. If we sign Thuney, we'll need some cheaper solid options like XFS. Inuries like ankle sprains are just luck of the draw.

Yep, if XSF can consistently play like he did Week 1, he's a steal at his cost. He'd need to play at least a few games out of the remaining ones to give an indication though whether his performance in Week 1 is more the norm or an anomaly.

I have a gut feeling that it's an anomaly, as all of his previous years haven't been as good, at least according to PFF:
2014 - 52.2 (37.8 pass, 59.9 run)
2015 - 62.4 (48.9 pass, 64.7 run)
2016 - 67.4 (64.2 pass, 66.7 run)
2017 - 53.7 (56.7 pass, 51.2 run)
2018 - 44.1 (48.7 pass, 42.3 run)
2019 - 60.1 (77.7 pass, 48.6 run)

2020 (40 snaps) - 75.5 (62.5 pass, 75.2 run)

I would say his "typical" performance would probably be in the low 60's overall. He seems to teeter between good run vs good pass. Only in 2016 did he do decently well at both the pass and run.

XSF is still probably better than any other OG on the roster aside from maybe Spain, but I doubt he ends up being a "good" starter. He'll probably just be serviceable. But that's ok if the rest of the line is at least serviceable or better.

[Bronxbengal]

(12-02-2020, 03:13 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Yeah, I thought Tate might have the potential to be #3 and put up similar numbers to a Mo Sanu, but it just doesn’t seem like it’s going to happen at this point. Between injuries and inconsistent play, we can’t be comfortable with him as anything but a 4/5 going forward. WR is a big need.

There was a reason why Tate fell to the seventh round. He doesn’t have the speed to be WR.


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[jfkbengals]

(12-02-2020, 04:10 PM)pally Wrote: or perhaps having an insurance policy in case of another COVID issue.  That is why the 2nd kicker remains on the roster

That was my thought, and hope.

I was lobbying to have one of each kicker, punter, and long snapper on the PS for insurance when the original roster was set.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(12-02-2020, 06:40 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Why the hate on XFS? Both he and Reader played well then had their seasons cut short. XFS graded our top lineman in the one game he played, and he cost a fraction of what Reader costs. If we sign Thuney, we'll need some cheaper solid options like XFS. Inuries like ankle sprains are just luck of the draw.

It’s not “hate”, my point was most years he would have been our biggest FA addition. He’s a low end starter or ideally a backup. We need to prove signing top tier players like Reader wasn’t a one off thing.

[Essex Johnson]

(12-02-2020, 06:40 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Why the hate on XFS? Both he and Reader played well then had their seasons cut short. XFS graded our top lineman in the one game he played, and he cost a fraction of what Reader costs. If we sign Thuney, we'll need some cheaper solid options like XFS. Inuries like ankle sprains are just luck of the draw.

You really can;t judge a player on one game which XFS played.. im not hating but really can;t do a true evaluation of this FA pickup.. you can hate that one of our main FA pickups was MIA this year though

[impactplaya]

Zac Taylor had no idea how to.use Auden Tate this year.
Active roster, inactive, active......7 snaps one game
34 one game. Finally when.Zac realized Tate wasnt getting many
Snaps he finally came up.big vs the Titans.
Tate is a better WR than ZT as a offensive mind

[Whatever]

(12-02-2020, 10:53 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Zac Taylor had no idea how to.use Auden Tate this year.
Active roster, inactive, active......7 snaps one game
34 one game. Finally when.Zac realized Tate wasnt getting many
Snaps he finally came up.big vs the Titans.
Tate is a better WR than ZT as a offensive mind

I think it's a lot more likely that you were simply off in your evaluation.

He had a good game against the Titans, but he beat up on a washed up CB who missed practice all week with an illness and got cut the next day.  Against decent CB's, he couldn't separate and they negated his size advantage by being in good position and playing the ball or his hands.  He's fine as back half of the roster depth guy.  He isn't a starter.  Tee Higgins can do everything Tate can plus a lot more.  They don't seem to have issues figuring out how to use him.  

[impactplaya]

(12-03-2020, 01:31 AM)Whatever Wrote: I think it's a lot more likely that you were simply off in your evaluation.

He had a good game against the Titans, but he beat up on a washed up CB who missed practice all week with an illness and got cut the next day.  Against decent CB's, he couldn't separate and they negated his size advantage by being in good position and playing the ball or his hands.  He's fine as back half of the roster depth guy.  He isn't a starter.  Tee Higgins can do everything Tate can plus a lot more.  They don't seem to have issues figuring out how to use him.  

I dont think this team really has any good position
Coaches on either side of the ball other than 
The running backs coach Singleton and the TEs coach 

I dont even think Bicknell is all that as a WRs coach.
See Higgins and Boyd were really coached up coming out 
Of college.Tate was extremely raw but he had natural aize.

Tate was a project. But he has progressed. But not involving him more in the offense isnt helping his growth.
Hes not running wrong routes or giving up on routes.
He needs reps 

[Whatever]

(12-03-2020, 10:29 AM)impactplaya Wrote: I dont think this team really has any good position
Coaches on either side of the ball other than 
The running backs coach Singleton and the TEs coach 

I dont even think Bicknell is all that as a WRs coach.
See Higgins and Boyd were really coached up coming out 
Of college.Tate was extremely raw but he had natural aize.

Tate was a project. But he has progressed. But not involving him more in the offense isnt helping his growth.
Hes not running wrong routes or giving up on routes.
He needs reps 

Higgins wasn't that polished.  He didn't run a full route tree at Clemson. Boyd has definitely made positive strides forward since Bicknell arrived in '18 after being benched in '17.  Higgins, obviously, has exceeded expectations.  Tate isn't great, but he has also certainly exceeded expectations based on where he was drafted.  

Reality is, Tate's only chance to be anything more than a depth guy is to become a good enough route runner to get seperation despite his lack of speed and quickness.  He didn't do that this year, and if he hasn't done it in year 3, he probably never will.    

Tate caught 50% of his targets last year.  He was targeted multiple times in 5 games this year.  In only one of those did he catch over 50% of his targets.  There's not a lot of point in trying to force him the ball when he's not effective, because Higgins can do everything he can and is flat out better than Tate.

[Yojimbo]

This little blurb by Hobson gives me a little hope that both XSF and Spain will be the starting guards on sunday:

"He started Opening Day, broke his ankle, and three other guys have started at right guard since. With Alex Redmond not practicing Wednesday with a concussion and Quinton Spain starting the last game at left guard"

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(12-02-2020, 05:18 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: You’re not fixing this team in one draft regardless how many picks you have. They also need to keep being aggressive in FA and prove it wasn’t a one time thing. More signings like Reader, and less like XSF.

They absolutely should be making a lot more signings like XSF. The difference is they should be signing them as depth pieces rather than as starters.

Fixing this roster requires more than signing starters, it involves building out the depth, which is wafer thin in most positions. The biggest issue on this team at the moment are the likes of Sims, Tony Brown, Redmond, Finley/Allen, Covington, Carter, Hunt, Xavier Williams, Bledsoe etc who are essentially playing because of injury. Instead of signing XSF as a starter, they should be signing players like him as the next man up and ensuring that the drop off in case of injury of starters isn't as steep as is currently the case.

I agree this will take more than one off season to sort but fix the depth and then a couple of careful careful high end acquisitions in each of the draft and free agency and this roster will suddenly look a lot stronger.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(12-03-2020, 02:00 PM)TJHoushmandzadehs Shiny Shoes Wrote: They absolutely should be making a lot more signings like XSF. The difference is they should be signing them as depth pieces rather than as starters.

Fixing this roster requires more than signing starters, it involves building out the depth, which is wafer thin in most positions. The biggest issue on this team at the moment are the likes of Sims, Tony Brown, Redmond, Finley/Allen, Covington, Carter, Hunt, Xavier Williams, Bledsoe etc who are essentially playing because of injury. Instead of signing XSF as a starter, they should be signing players like him as the next man up and ensuring that the drop off in case of injury of starters isn't as steep as is currently the case.

I agree this will take more than one off season to sort but fix the depth and then a couple of careful careful high end acquisitions in each of the draft and free agency and this roster will suddenly look a lot stronger.

Depth can also come from late round draft picks though. Adeniji is a good example. He’s been serviceable in a fill in role. But my point was guys like XSF and Bynes can’t be our big additions in FA like they have been for pretty much forever. You really want to move the needle you need to add guys like Thuney, Conklin, etc.

[*bfine32*]

(12-02-2020, 07:02 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Yep, if XSF can consistently play like he did Week 1, he's a steal at his cost. He'd need to play at least a few games out of the remaining ones to give an indication though whether his performance in Week 1 is more the norm or an anomaly.

I have a gut feeling that it's an anomaly, as all of his previous years haven't been as good, at least according to PFF:
2014 - 52.2 (37.8 pass, 59.9 run)
2015 - 62.4 (48.9 pass, 64.7 run)
2016 - 67.4 (64.2 pass, 66.7 run)
2017 - 53.7 (56.7 pass, 51.2 run)
2018 - 44.1 (48.7 pass, 42.3 run)
2019 - 60.1 (77.7 pass, 48.6 run)

2020 (40 snaps) - 75.5 (62.5 pass, 75.2 run)

I would say his "typical" performance would probably be in the low 60's overall. He seems to teeter between good run vs good pass. Only in 2016 did he do decently well at both the pass and run.

XSF is still probably better than any other OG on the roster aside from maybe Spain, but I doubt he ends up being a "good" starter. He'll probably just be serviceable. But that's ok if the rest of the line is at least serviceable or better.

Player A: Former 2nd round draft choice, never really was a full time starter, picked up by the Bengals at age 28

Player B: Former 2nd round draft choice, never really was a full time starter, picked up by the Bengals at age 29

We had/have hopes that each can provide us stability at RG.

Player B is XSF

Player A is Bobbie Williams

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(12-03-2020, 02:05 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Depth can also come from late round draft picks though. Adeniji is a good example. He’s been serviceable in a fill in role. But my point was guys like XSF and Bynes can’t be our big additions in FA like they have been for pretty much forever. You really want to move the needle you need to add guys like Thuney, Conklin, etc.

Depth can come from late round picks but it usually takes them a couple of seasons to develop. Adeniji has shown promise but as a rookie he's not what a good team has as the first man off the bench (or if you want to argue Fred Johnson was first tackle off the bench, Fred Johnson isn't what good teams have as first man off the bench). Adeniji's someone the Bengals should keep around but if he's first man off the bench at Tackle in training camp* next year we'll know that the Bengals haven't really fixed their O-line room and are still banking on hope.

*That's not to say he won't develop and work his way up the depth chart during camp/pre-season/the season itself but rather that he should have to fight his way past stronger opposition to do so.

[Luvnit2]

(12-02-2020, 05:00 PM)ochocincos Wrote: As much as I would love Sewell, I think a trade-down might be a better option to help get more early-round picks. This team has too many spots that need upgraded, and just 7 draft picks and a mid-to-lower tier FA or two isn't going to cut it.

I disagree, if a HOF LT (many experts agree) who is young and will be a bargain for 4 years is available, you take him.

As far as rest of the roster, we have 2 other picks in top 100 so we should get some real quality with those picks.

Last, this is the year due to cap reduction we and all teams will get bargain FA's, there are teams already over the cap, good teams with good rosters that will have to cut guys, there will be a small market for these starts to be paid.

I see the players who are cut opting for 1 year deals hoping the cap situation reverts back to normal in 2022. The 2021 year will be an anomaly so we can get a great 1 year haul in FA to fill holes.