Michael Jordan is Working Out With Willie Anderson

[fredtoast]

What is the point of screaming for a new O-line coach if no one believes coaching can improve a player?

[BengalChris]

(03-04-2021, 03:20 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: 23 year old Michael Jordan told me to tell you hi and to remind you that he isn't the first mid-round OL to have a rocky start to their career. He also wanted me to remind you it wouldn't be the first time a guy had a down year in the NFL and improved.

A down year implies that he was up before that. Sadly, that never occurred.

The fact that Jordan has been pretty bad as a starting OG in the NFL is less of a knock on him than it is on the front office and coaching staff who never noticed that he's not ready to start and made no effort to have a starter on the team for that spot.

I hope Jordan figures it out and plays better, but for the coaches to put a 4th round player, who hasn't played well, out there as their starter shows a complete lack of understanding on their part. Can't just have all these gaping holes along the OL and expect the offense to perform well.

 

[Bernards watch]

What is the issues with Jordan, is it a lack of size 9r technigue?

[BengalsRocker]

(03-04-2021, 04:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: A lot of people here wrote off Andre Smith after his first two seasons but he ended up being one of the better RTs in the league for a couple of years.

Again, I am not saying that we should count on Johnson improving dramatically better, but I am not saying we should give up on him either.

That points more to his draft stratus than his actual play.

I don't recall people wanting him cut or piling on due to his abilities.

They just had higher expectations because of draft value.

Same thing with Dan Wilkinson.  Then there are those who are anti-OSU wanting to throw digs.

Big Daddy & Andre Smith were solid NFL players with up and down seasons but in total performance they were above average.

People want superstars that high in a draft.

Comparing a 4th rounder who never was very impressive even at the college level is way different.

He should have been a project.  Very raw and needed work and even after that he could possible be a solid backup in the NFL or perhaps never even make the grade.

As long as MJ is downgraded to project status or emergency backup.  Cool.

Never say never on upgrading, but what have we seen that shows there is promise?  What??

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-04-2021, 07:38 PM)Bernards watch Wrote: What is the issues with Jordan, is it a lack of size 9r technigue?

It isn't lack of size, Jordan is a big dude.

[fredtoast]

(03-04-2021, 07:46 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: That points more to his draft stratus than his actual play.

I don't recall people wanting him cut or piling on due to his abilities.

They just had higher expectations because of draft value.

Same thing with Dan Wilkinson.  Then there are those who are anti-OSU wanting to throw digs.

Big Daddy & Andre Smith were solid NFL players with up and down seasons but in total performance they were above average.

People want superstars that high in a draft.

Comparing a 4th rounder who never was very impressive even at the college level is way different.

He should have been a project.  Very raw and needed work and even after that he could possible be a solid backup in the NFL or perhaps never even make the grade.

As long as MJ is downgraded to project status or emergency backup.  Cool.

Never say never on upgrading, but what have we seen that shows there is promise?  What??

First of all a lot of people were calling for Andre Smith to be cut after his second season.  There was a big crowd that absolutely hated him.

But why not forget draft status.  Look at undrafted free agent Adam Thielen.  Had a total of 20 receptions over his first two seasons.  Then over the next three he averaged 91 for 1205 yds.

[Lucidus]

I am far from a football expert, but from what I witnessed from young Mr. Jordan last season, he seemed to be somewhat out of his element and a bit in over his head. Am I wrong in thinking that he was often overpowered too easily and looked incredibly confused -- or perhaps just missing his assignments -- on many occasions?

[*bfine32*]

This is a good thing. MJ is still younger than many coming out in this year's draft. Didn't he a Wyatt Davis arrive at OSU at the same time? My hope is Willie can teach him how to bite

[impactplaya]

Jordan has the size to play the position.
What he lacks is tenacity and technique.
You.cannot coach the element of a willingness to simply
Dominate the man lined up across from.you.
You either have it or you dont.
Now you.go to technique.
Jordan could hide his flaws at college.
Now they are exposed.
His hands arent violent. He has no strike and punch
That can help drive d-lineman.back.
He is often off balance.
Ive seen him pull at times and lay out a decent kick
Out block.
But overall he is really soft. He gets punished more
Than he gives out

[*bfine32*]

(03-04-2021, 10:53 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Jordan has the size to play the position.
What he lacks is tenacity and technique.
You.cannot coach the element of a willingness to simply
Dominate the man lined up across from.you.
You either have it or you dont.
Now you.go to technique.
Jordan could hide his flaws at college.
Now they are exposed.
His hands arent violent. He has no strike and punch
That can help drive d-lineman.back.
He is often off balance.
Ive seen him pull at times and lay out a decent kick
Out block.
But overall he is really soft. He gets punished more
Than he gives out

It's why I stated I hope Willie teaches him how to bite. MJ reminds me of what Hugh Douglas said about Winston Justice being soft:

"If he didn't bite as a pup, he won't bite as a dog". 

[Joelist]

I do think Pollack can coach Jordan up given time. But by the same standard we cannot sit there and pencil Jordan in as the starter. Maybe he can get the job back in time but right now no way.

[sandwedge]

(03-04-2021, 02:30 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I am confused by the 100% negativity (actually just shows fans don't want improvement once they have decided a player should be gone).

Let's look at the alternative stories that could be out there.

Jordan sitting at home eating doughnuts to beef up for 2021.
Jordan tells Willie Anderson no thanks when Willie offers his help.
Jordan spends off season doing no conditioning for 2021.

I always thought we wanted players who try to get better, but not in this forum, it is spun to make players look like Neanderthals. Congrats to the naysayers, way to take a positive and turn into a negative...................again

BTW..It was Eric Steinbach who missed the block at LG and allowed the Palmer injury in the 2006 playoff loss to the Steelers. I don't recall him being outcast as a result

It wouldn't be the same around here if the "experts" on this board didn't shit on a player or coach. I'm always amazed that there are people who can barely manage their own lives, yet feel compelled tirelessly to truly think they are more competent to run a NFL a NFL team.....

[PDub80]

(03-04-2021, 08:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: First of all a lot of people were calling for Andre Smith to be cut after his second season.  There was a big crowd that absolutely hated him.

But why not forget draft status.  Look at undrafted free agent Adam Thielen.  Had a total of 20 receptions over his first two seasons.  Then over the next three he averaged 91 for 1205 yds.

I wonder what the snap comparison was between Thielen and Jordan?

If Jordan hadn't been getting snaps, I wouldn't understand the bitching. But, he has played - a lot - and was horrific. Not just bad. Not just ok. But he was trash. I think the biggest concern is that it would be incredibly unwise to hitch your wagon to a very questionable horse if said horse was given 2 years to show he can pull the wagon. Especially NOT with Joey B coming back from a serious injury... that said horse played a major part in causing. This isn't a Steinbach, a very good player, having 1 bad snap leading to a QB injury. This was a trash player getting tossed aside like trash. Everyone saw it coming.... but the Bengals.

Andre Smith was crapped on for a lot of unfair reasons, most of which seemed (inexplicably) personal. I don't think that's the case with Jordan.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(03-05-2021, 01:18 AM)sandwedge Wrote: It wouldn't be the same around here if the "experts" on this board didn't shit on a player or coach. I'm always amazed that there are people who can barely manage their own lives, yet feel compelled tirelessly to truly think they are more competent to run a NFL a NFL team.....

How the hell do you know anything whatsoever about people’s personal lives here?

[Nicomo Cosca]

(03-05-2021, 01:38 AM)PDub80 Wrote: I wonder what the snap comparison was between Thielen and Jordan?

If Jordan hadn't been getting snaps, I wouldn't understand the bitching. But, he has played - a lot - and was horrific. Not just bad. Not just ok. But he was trash. I think the biggest concern is that it would be incredibly unwise to hitch your wagon to a very questionable horse if said horse was given 2 years to show he can pull the wagon. Especially NOT with Joey B coming back from a serious injury... that said horse played a major part in causing. This isn't a Steinbach, a very good player, having 1 bad snap leading to a QB injury. This was a trash player getting tossed aside like trash. Everyone saw it coming.... but the Bengals.

Andre Smith was crapped on for a lot of unfair reasons, most of which seemed (inexplicably) personal. I don't think that's the case with Jordan.

This.

Also, a 6th overall pick like Smith is obviously going to get a longer leash than some 4th round scrub like Jordan. Well, on most team’s anyway...

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(03-04-2021, 11:42 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Let's say he does he improve a great deal, to the point of actually being a serviceable starting lineman.  What does that say about the Bengals coaching staff?  What does say about the people that put the staff in place?

Spending a few weeks with Willie Anderson is some educational and energizing experience to the boint of breakthough, but spending a couple years with the Bengals (mini-camp, OTA's, training camp, day-in -day-out practice, drills, film, competition with fellow professionals) produced little to no improvement?

(03-04-2021, 12:43 PM)ochocincos Wrote: It would help support that Jim Turner was a bad coach.

I think it would say more about the collective bargaining agreement than about the Bengals coaching staff. 

The modern day NFL player is far more dependent on outside coaching than on the team staff, whose contact time is severely curtailed. The regular season is just 17 weeks long, players need recovery time and need to do strength work, they need to prepare leaving very little time to work on technique mid season and the repetition that is required to embed it. Instead during the season is far more filmwork than actual hands on coaching.


Out of season the coaches rarely get their hands on the players either. Teams get just 9 weeks for off season workouts. The first two of these are strength and conditioning only. You then get 3 weeks of on-field workouts


On-field workouts may include individual player instruction and drills as well as team practice conducted on a "separates" basis. No live contact or team offense vs. team defense drills are permitted.

Then you get 4 weeks which sounds like a lot but in reality 
Teams may conduct a total of 10 days of organized team practice activity, or "OTAs". No live contact is permitted, but 7-on-7, 9-on-7, and 11-on-11 drills are permitted.


That's why so many O-linemen work with people like Willie or Duke Manyweather when you can work on a single aspect of your game for weeks on end, constantly drilling it in with repetition. That doesn't happen during the season. It doesn't really happen in team workouts which aren't tailored for an individual's needs. It happens in the off-season in the player's own time away from the auspices of their team. 

[Bengalitis]

I can see 0-4 Bengals this season. Have very low confidence on Zac. It's no longer much about the players.

[Essex Johnson]

Happy to see the Bengals continue to be open about bringing in ex players to work with individual players..and to me it will be less about technique and more about working on between the ears.. the NFL is the elite level of football, physical differences are less across the board .. it is the mental part of the game that tends to hold players back ... I could see Willie as the mentor trying to move Jordan.. maybe it works , maybe it does not.. but I am glad the organization is open to bringing in ex players

[*ochocincos*]

(03-05-2021, 09:04 AM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: I think it would say more about the collective bargaining agreement than about the Bengals coaching staff. 

The modern day NFL player is far more dependent on outside coaching than on the team staff, whose contact time is severely curtailed. The regular season is just 17 weeks long, players need recovery time and need to do strength work, they need to prepare leaving very little time to work on technique mid season and the repetition that is required to embed it. Instead during the season is far more filmwork than actual hands on coaching.


Out of season the coaches rarely get their hands on the players either. Teams get just 9 weeks for off season workouts. The first two of these are strength and conditioning only. You then get 3 weeks of on-field workouts


On-field workouts may include individual player instruction and drills as well as team practice conducted on a "separates" basis. No live contact or team offense vs. team defense drills are permitted.

Then you get 4 weeks which sounds like a lot but in reality 
Teams may conduct a total of 10 days of organized team practice activity, or "OTAs". No live contact is permitted, but 7-on-7, 9-on-7, and 11-on-11 drills are permitted.


That's why so many O-linemen work with people like Willie or Duke Manyweather when you can work on a single aspect of your game for weeks on end, constantly drilling it in with repetition. That doesn't happen during the season. It doesn't really happen in team workouts which aren't tailored for an individual's needs. It happens in the off-season in the player's own time away from the auspices of their team. 

I didn't think about that being an issue because other teams seem to be able to get OL acclimated, but maybe that's what it is. Perhaps those players who are succeeding are going to (better) outside training sources since there are so many limitations to how much time can be spent with NFL coaches on the field.

[XenoMorph]

(03-05-2021, 10:44 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I didn't think about that being an issue because other teams seem to be able to get OL acclimated, but maybe that's what it is. Perhaps those players who are succeeding are going to (better) outside training sources since there are so many limitations to how much time can be spent with NFL coaches on the field.

or other coaches have a better scheme and implement it better to suit their players strengths..