Welcome aboard Tre Hendrickson

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-17-2021, 12:46 PM)SadFaceBengal15 Wrote: Any chance of us brining in one more pass rusher prior to the draft?  Or how unrealistic is it to think we could still sign let’s say Sammy Watkins and Trae Turner/Rodney Hudson/ Gabe Jackson?

Still would like Rankins and an O-lineman.

[*ochocincos*]

I know some have been talking about how Trey Hendrickson brings better health over Carl Lawson.

Well, here are the total games active for Hendrickson and Lawson in their careers:
Hendrickson vs Lawson
2017 - 12 vs 16
2018 - 5 vs 7
2019 - 13 vs 12
2020 - 15 vs 16
Total - 45 vs 51

So Lawson has actually been more available than Hendrickson has at this point in their careers. The only season where Lawson had less games active than Hendrickson was 2019, and it was just 1 game less.

[Stewy]

(03-30-2021, 10:40 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I know some have been talking about how Trey Hendrickson brings better health over Carl Lawson.

Well, here are the total games active for Hendrickson and Lawson in their careers:
Hendrickson vs Lawson
2017 - 12 vs 16
2018 - 5 vs 7
2019 - 13 vs 12
2020 - 15 vs 16
Total - 45 vs 51

So Lawson has actually been more available than Hendrickson has at this point in their careers. The only season where Lawson had less games active than Hendrickson was 2019, and it was just 1 game less.

I dont know the answer to this so it is an honest question:  Were Trey's games active because of injury or something else?  How much did each play in those years?   Being "active" vs. being on the field.  Everyone's been saying Lawson is more injury prone, so there has to be a reason why.  You can't be the first person to notice this....

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

How many games did Hendrickson miss due to injury? Lawson basically had no competition for his active status. He only missed games due to injury.

[bengaloo]

Both Lawson and Hendrickson played all season last season so its the best way to compare them. I think Hendrickson was buried in the depth chart early in his career and did well every time he got a chance. I dont think his missed time was from injuries but could be wrong. He was just working his way into a very talented DL on the Saints. I know some folks say Hendricksons sacks were because of something else, coverage sacks, etc. All DE's who put up 10+ sacks can say that about a few sacks, if you were to nitpick every sack with him you can do it with anyone. Despite that, he had more than double the sacks Lawson had last year. 5.5 vs 13.5.

Lawson's 2 best games came against Philly and the Stealers MNF game. He had 2 sacks against Philly and 8 combined tackles overall, which was his best game in that regard. He had 1 sack, a TFL and a FF against the Steelers on MNF. Lawson had 6 QB hits in both Stealers games actually, giving him 12 total against them for the year. He played pretty well against Villanueva overall.

Lawson's best stat are his QB hits and have been his whole career. He had 32 of them last year. But looking closer, 17 of those came against the Steelers and Browns. Lawson had 5 QB hits against the Browns in one game, but in that game recorded no tackles, no assists or any other stats the entire game. How big of an impact were his QB hits though? Well, Baker threw for 5 TD's and had a 135.6 rating. So did Lawson's 5 hits make a difference? He had 6 QB hits and 2 tackles overall in the first Stealers game where we lost 36-10 but Ben threw 4 TD's, over 300 yards and a 110 rating despite Lawson's hits. I wonder what PFF says about that? To the eye test and outcome of the game, those hits made no difference at all and didnt help us even slow the other team down.

Personally, I think we got an upgrade over Lawson injuries aside, but the only way to know is to see what Hendrickson does in 2021.

[TJ528]

(03-31-2021, 10:55 AM)bengaloo Wrote: Both Lawson and Hendrickson played all season last season so its the best way to compare them. I think Hendrickson was buried in the depth chart early in his career and did well every time he got a chance. I dont think his missed time was from injuries but could be wrong. He was just working his way into a very talented DL on the Saints. I know some folks say Hendricksons sacks were because of something else, coverage sacks, etc. All DE's who put up 10+ sacks can say that about a few sacks, if you were to nitpick every sack with him you can do it with anyone. Despite that, he had more than double the sacks Lawson had last year. 5.5 vs 13.5.

Lawson's 2 best games came against Philly and the Stealers MNF game. He had 2 sacks against Philly and 8 combined tackles overall, which was his best game in that regard. He had 1 sack, a TFL and a FF against the Steelers on MNF. Lawson had 6 QB hits in both Stealers games actually, giving him 12 total against them for the year. He played pretty well against Villanueva overall.

Lawson's best stat are his QB hits and have been his whole career. He had 32 of them last year. But looking closer, 17 of those came against the Steelers and Browns. Lawson had 5 QB hits against the Browns in one game, but in that game recorded no tackles, no assists or any other stats the entire game. How big of an impact were his QB hits though? Well, Baker threw for 5 TD's and had a 135.6 rating. So did Lawson's 5 hits make a difference? He had 6 QB hits and 2 tackles overall in the first Stealers game where we lost 36-10 but Ben threw 4 TD's, over 300 yards and a 110 rating despite Lawson's hits. I wonder what PFF says about that? To the eye test and outcome of the game, those hits made no difference at all and didnt help us even slow the other team down.

Personally, I think we got an upgrade over Lawson injuries aside, but the only way to know is to see what Hendrickson does in 2021.

Here's my issue with your analytics when comparing to last year.   So you're going to compare Lawson and Hendrickson based on the talent around them and how the opposing QB performed right?  Lets take a look at the talent that Lawson had vs the talent Henderickson played with:

Saints:
Cameron Jordan
Sheldon Rankins
Malcom Brown
Hendrickson

So the DL already has more play makers on it and ability to get pressure on the QB

DB:
Janoris Jenkins 
Malcom Jenkins
Marcus Williams
Marshon Lattimore

So if you compare those 8 with the Bengals starting 8

Sam Hubard
Covington
Daniels - Sometimes Geno 
Lawson 

DB:
Von Bell 
Bates
WJIII
Darius Philips/Sims/Alexander

Me personally, I'd take the Saints starting 8 over the Bengals DL/DB's any day of the week.  

If you can't cover anyone and there's a reason they let WJIII go, because he struggles in zone defenses, then you're not going to get pressure on the QB.   There's a reason Ben threw for as many yards as he did because we couldn't get pressure and we couldnt cover in the back end. 

[Whatever]

(03-31-2021, 10:55 AM)bengaloo Wrote: Both Lawson and Hendrickson played all season last season so its the best way to compare them. I think Hendrickson was buried in the depth chart early in his career and did well every time he got a chance. I dont think his missed time was from injuries but could be wrong. He was just working his way into a very talented DL on the Saints. I know some folks say Hendricksons sacks were because of something else, coverage sacks, etc. All DE's who put up 10+ sacks can say that about a few sacks, if you were to nitpick every sack with him you can do it with anyone. Despite that, he had more than double the sacks Lawson had last year. 5.5 vs 13.5.

Lawson's 2 best games came against Philly and the Stealers MNF game. He had 2 sacks against Philly and 8 combined tackles overall, which was his best game in that regard. He had 1 sack, a TFL and a FF against the Steelers on MNF. Lawson had 6 QB hits in both Stealers games actually, giving him 12 total against them for the year. He played pretty well against Villanueva overall.

Lawson's best stat are his QB hits and have been his whole career. He had 32 of them last year. But looking closer, 17 of those came against the Steelers and Browns. Lawson had 5 QB hits against the Browns in one game, but in that game recorded no tackles, no assists or any other stats the entire game. How big of an impact were his QB hits though? Well, Baker threw for 5 TD's and had a 135.6 rating. So did Lawson's 5 hits make a difference? He had 6 QB hits and 2 tackles overall in the first Stealers game where we lost 36-10 but Ben threw 4 TD's, over 300 yards and a 110 rating despite Lawson's hits. I wonder what PFF says about that? To the eye test and outcome of the game, those hits made no difference at all and didnt help us even slow the other team down.

Personally, I think we got an upgrade over Lawson injuries aside, but the only way to know is to see what Hendrickson does in 2021.

I think another thing that gets missed in the argument is Lawson played close to 200 more snaps on the season.  People are getting hung up on total pressures instead of pressure rate.

[bengaloo]

(03-31-2021, 11:22 AM)TJ528 Wrote: Here's my issue with your analytics when comparing to last year.   So you're going to compare Lawson and Hendrickson based on the talent around them and how the opposing QB performed right?  Lets take a look at the talent that Lawson had vs the talent Henderickson played with:

Saints:
Cameron Jordan
Sheldon Rankins
Malcom Brown
Hendrickson

So the DL already has more play makers on it and ability to get pressure on the QB

DB:
Janoris Jenkins 
Malcom Jenkins
Marcus Williams
Marshon Lattimore

So if you compare those 8 with the Bengals starting 8

Sam Hubard
Covington
Daniels - Sometimes Geno 
Lawson 

DB:
Von Bell 
Bates
WJIII
Darius Philips/Sims/Alexander

Me personally, I'd take the Saints starting 8 over the Bengals DL/DB's any day of the week.  

If you can't cover anyone and there's a reason they let WJIII go, because he struggles in zone defenses, then you're not going to get pressure on the QB.   There's a reason Ben threw for as many yards as he did because we couldn't get pressure and we couldnt cover in the back end. 

Its a valid argument, but Lawson's only good season as a pass rusher he had the benefit of playing next to a HOF DT and a pro bowl caliber DE in Dunlap and we were pretty solid on the back end as well. He had 8.5 sacks that year. If our secondary were better and healthier last year and it gave Lawson a few more sacks, they would just be coverage sacks according to a lot of peoples opinions. So it just it what it is. A matter of opinion, which is often biased. I always liked Lawson but never thought he lived up to hype here. Plus his injury history is real. I also think QB hits is an overblown stat. It takes looking further into each hit to see if it makes a real difference.

[bengaloo]

(03-31-2021, 11:23 AM)Whatever Wrote: I think another thing that gets missed in the argument is Lawson played close to 200 more snaps on the season.  People are getting hung up on total pressures instead of pressure rate.

Agreed. This is another very valid point. Like I said in the last post, its just a matter of opinion until 2021 season plays out, but I personally think we upgraded with Hendrickson over Lawson as it stands now. 200 more snaps is a lot more opportunities to get sacks and tackles.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-31-2021, 12:07 PM)bengaloo Wrote: Agreed. This is another very valid point. Like I said in the last post, its just a matter of opinion until 2021 season plays out, but I personally think we upgraded with Hendrickson over Lawson as it stands now. 200 more snaps is a lot more opportunities to get sacks and tackles.

Way more and to only get 5.5 sacks while Hendrickson got 13.5 just is screaming from the roof Hendrickson = upgrade.