Simple Question What's Your Answer and Reason

[Sled21]

(03-20-2021, 10:37 PM)impactplaya Wrote: People forget yes the oline was very inconsistant last year, very shakey. But let's not forget the Bengals had the worst oline
Coach in the entire league and Burrow being a rookie
Did hold on to ball as rookie starters typically do.
Oh BTW Reiff can block on a island.
All these questions about asking if Kyle Pitts can block.
He is A average above blocker.
Pitts will be drafted on.his ability to wreck defenses on
His pass catching, not blocking.
Drew Sample was declared to be a great pass blocker
Coming out of Washington.
How has that impacted the Bengals offense in 2 years?
I havent seen it.

Not according to this......
2021 NFL Draft Prospect Profile: TE Kyle Pitts, Florida - Sports Illustrated New York Giants News, Analysis and More

Quote:Pitts gives a lot of effort when blocking, and he made strides from 2019 to 2020, but he’s not ideal as a blocker. Evan Engram comparisons are lazy--Pitts is far superior to Engram as a prospect, but Pitts doesn’t have the frame to hold up EDGEs at the point of attack consistently. He does possess very quick feet in pass protection but has to do a better job framing his blocks and not lunging.

Pitts can stalemate, lockout, and hold the point of attack at a solid rate on base type blocks as a run blocker. Pitts could improve when pulling on split-zone or counter; location skills aren’t the greatest in space, and he doesn’t do the best job leveraging his hands, establishing contact, and paving the way for the running back. He may be used as an offensive weapon who lines up inside at times, but his primary threat will be as a receiver or a big slot.

[CardCounterChris]

First off, the safer, non bust pick in my opinion is Chase. Sewell hasn't played much college football. Lineman can be hit and miss in general. If you wanted to be safe and say "I didn't waste my pick", I think the answer is Chase. Even if he doesn't live up to best wide receiver in the class, which I think he is, he'll be a solid producer.

HOWEVER, good lineman are so much rarer than good wide outs! If you have a choice between an elite lineman or receiver, you jump at the lineman. I won't be upset with Chase, though once you get past the story and the Burrow connection, I think looking at the roster, Sewell and Pitts both make more sense in checking the boxes for dominant at their position and team need.

[*jason*]

(03-20-2021, 09:13 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Can be Pitts be an option? Because that's my choice, and here's why...

As good of a prospect Sewell is projected to be, he's only 20 years old, and he hasn't played in a year. He also only started one full season in college. One. (He missed half of his Freshman year)

I think it's a bit naive to think that he's going to be able to come in immediately and be a great OL. A very young kid, with limited college experience, who played in the weakest of the Power 5 conferences, who now has a year of rust, and who plays a position that generally takes some time to adjust to at the Pro Level... I think the best case scenario for him year 1 is to be around average. There's a good chance he struggles a bit.

Look at Jonah Williams. He played 3 years in college (vs. 2), started 40 games (vs. 20), played in the toughest conference in college football where he went against tons of NFL talent, and he had a full year in the NFL of film, study, training and workouts before he finally started. And guess what? He was pretty average out of the gate.

I know Sewell projects to be better, but again I think it may naive to think he's going to immediately be this huge upgrade to OL. I realize there's a long-term factor I've thus ignored, but I'm just talking about immediate help.

Chase... Would love to have him. But we've already got two decent receivers and Higgins (and Chad Johnson, and so many other NFL WR's) prove you can get studs in the 2nd and on. Plus he presents the problem of who the hell you're going to choose to pay when his, Higgins and Boyd's contract all come up in the next few years. (You probably won't be able to keep them all)

Which brings me to Pitts... Pitts is a once in a decade Tight End talent. He's not simply the best tight end in this draft, he's one of the most athletic tight ends to ever enter. He essentially a WR in a Tight End's body. He can line out wide, he's a matchup nightmare, and he's extremely versatile.

Tight End is a position that, despite trying to hit on with Gresham and Eifert, we've never really had an elite one (Save one season for Eifert where he still missed time. We've never had a stud there that we can count on. And with the way the game has been going these last 15 years, I think it's something we've been sorely lacking.

So for all of these reason I go with Pitts. Skill players can transition a bit easier than OL, and he's equally as freakish to Tight Ends as Sewell is OL, maybe even moreso. He'd be a great target in the Red Zone and would provide this offense such a unique weapon that we could build off of for the next 5 years.

I'd stick with Williams and Reiff at the Tackles for this year, and try to address the position against next season. Or I hope that we could maybe find a diamond in the rough OT in the middle rounds this year. If not, hit FA next year or use a higher pick to fill the spot Reiff leaves. As far as Guard, sign two cheaper vets this season (Spain and Turner??), and invest a 2nd or 3rd round pick in another.

Just my 2 cents... as always, sorry if this is too long or was boring.

Not a bad take...

[*rfaulk34*]

(03-20-2021, 10:49 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: With Burrow in 9 games. He didn't show up on the stat sheet but played against Tennessee, and Burrow was 0-2 passing to him against Pittsburgh. (He was inactive against Washington.) You can't just shave off his final 2 games with Burrow he played in but got 0 catches just to make horrible stats only look really bad.

We're calling 1.44 catches/14.67 yards/0.11tds per game "look good" now?

That's roughly a 23/235/2 season.

Blame ESPN and Elias. 



If he was thrown at, it should show up on the page. This is where i took the stats from. 

EDIT: Ooops. I mistook the @Pitt to be the game the Bengals won, where Burrow didn't play.

Compared to what he did in 3 years, what he did with Burrow in 9 games does look good. 

EDIT #2: Neither ESPN nor NFL.com play-by-play give Thomas credit for any passes thrown his way during the Titans game. 

Compared to what he did in 3 years, what he did with Burrow in 8 games does look good. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(03-20-2021, 10:56 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: With all due respect, Mike Thomas sucks ass.  The Bengals need to add a dependable, veteran WR, as well as draft a pair for development.  However, like you said, Joe is able to get the most of the talent around him, so they don't need to take a pass catcher at the top of the draft.  Plenty of role player WRs in the mid and late rounds.

I wouldn't say he sucks ass. I would say he's no better than a #4 WR. WTS, the point was, 'does Burrow really make an average WR look better?' Well, look at what Thomas did in the 3 previous years combined and then look at what he did in the 8 games with Burrow. 

That's not to say he's any good at all but Burrow was able to pull a lot more out of him than anyone else did, comparatively speaking. 

[samhain]

I'll be happy if either player is there. I think they are both capable of bringing a lot to the offense. Sewell is still my first choice. I'd really hate seeing us pass on him and have to watch him live up to the hype on another team. He could fix a problem we've been dealing with for way too long.

[Whatever]

(03-20-2021, 09:48 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: His anticipation and accuracy make him able to make average WRs look good. Mike Thomas is pretty average. He didn't catch a pass from any Bengals QB not named Burrow last year, nor did he do much at all with LA; 10 catches for 144 yds and 0 tds in 13 games over 3 years.

With Burrow, in 7 games, he went 13 catches for 132 yards and 1 td. 

Thomas had 10 catches on 21 targets for 144 yards and no TD's in his Rams career.

He had 13 catches on 21 targets for 132 yards and 1 TD last year.  19 of those targets were from Burrow.

So, given the similar number of passes thrown his way, he had a higher catch %, lower yards per catch, better yards per target, and 1 more TD with Burrow.

I think it's fair to say he was better with Burrow.  However, it's not some night and day difference.  He's a STer/#5 or #6 WR.  He was still a STer/#5 or #6 WR with Burrow.  The guy didn't catch a pass after week 7.

We also heard this line last off-season.  We don't need a WR early.  Burrow was supposed to turn Auden Tate into a #2 WR.  Didn't happen.  The guy does make his receivers better, but you can only polish turds so much.

Get the kid an OL.  Get him the weapons he needs.  Don't cheap out on his supporting cast.

[*rfaulk34*]

(03-20-2021, 11:47 PM)Whatever Wrote: Thomas had 10 catches on 21 targets for 144 yards and no TD's in his Rams career.

He had 13 catches on 21 targets for 132 yards and 1 TD last year.  19 of those targets were from Burrow.

So, given the similar number of passes thrown his way, he had a higher catch %, lower yards per catch, better yards per target, and 1 more TD with Burrow.

I think it's fair to say he was better with Burrow.  However, it's not some night and day difference.  He's a STer/#5 or #6 WR.  He was still a STer/#5 or #6 WR with Burrow.  The guy didn't catch a pass after week 7.

We also heard this line last off-season.  We don't need a WR early.  Burrow was supposed to turn Auden Tate into a #2 WR.  Didn't happen.  The guy does make his receivers better, but you can only polish turds so much.

Get the kid an OL.  Get him the weapons he needs.  Don't cheap out on his supporting cast.

(re: my P.S.) Why are we debating Mike Thomas? A question was asked, comparable stats were given. 1, from a span of 3 years, the other from a span of 8 games. We're not debating if Mike Thomas is good/averag/bad. We're pointing out that Burrow was able to use him better in a shorter amount of time. The highlighted red is exactly what i was saying. 

Give him the line and i bet a guy like Thomas would put up better numbers. I'm sure we both agree that's the way it would play out, regardless of what receiver we are talking about. BUT give him a better line with Boyd, Higgins, a guy like Rashod Bateman, a decent TE and a healthy Mixon and he should shred. 

P.S. maybe i read the attitude of your first couple lines wrong?

[PDub80]

(03-20-2021, 07:42 PM)GodFather Wrote: First round pick 5, Bengals have both Sewell and Chase available, Mike Brown looks at you and says your decision and why? Then Bengals pull the trigger on your selection from these two.

Chase

I go for the guy with the highest ceiling. This OT draft is INSANELY deep. Grab the OT/G in the 2nd. Leatherwood should be there. Most years, that guy's a first round pick.

[2MinutesHate]

Sewell.

I don't think I can bear to watch him go down with another gruesome injury because of our OL.

I think we really don't even know what we have in Burrow yet because of the disaster they put in front of him last year. It should be interesting to see what he does with some time to throw and think for once (maybe).

[Murdock2420]

Sewell is the pick.
It not Sewell, you take Slater or trade back for more picks.

Drafting Pitts or Chase is literally committing to another losing season and top 10 pick.

[CardCounterChris]

(03-21-2021, 12:13 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Sewell is the pick.
It not Sewell, you take Slater or trade back for more picks.

Drafting Pitts or Chase is literally committing to another losing season and top 10 pick.

TE is hugely underrated.  Let's look at the TE's on previous superbowl teams:

55: KC (Kelce) vs TB (Brate/Gronk)
54: SF (Kittle) vs KC (Kelce)
53: NE (Gronk) vs LAR (Higbee)
52:NE (Gronk) vs Phi (Ertz)
51: NE (Gronk) vs Falcons (Toilolo)*
50: CAR (Olsen) vs DEN (Owens/Virgil)*

That's a lot of Kelce and Gronk.  Then you have names such as Ertz/Kettle/Olsen.  Higbee had a good season the year they went to the Super Bowl.  Only the two teams marked with * weren't very productive.  Can you make a solid team without a TE? Sure.  Its not as important as say a QB, but in today's NFL, TE is at a premium.  I think a lot of us who remember 90s football tend to undervalue the position.  TE's are weapons today, they aren't vestigial FBs.  Pitts is 100% not a commitment to losing!  To be honest, we should stop referring to them as TE and as a Y.

The Bengals problem isn't talent at the Receiver position. Its the type of players they pick up.  Cincy love's their X's.  They love big guys like Higgins, Green, and Tate.   Boyd can flirt between X and Z, but Cincy really needs a solid Y and a slot guy.  Chase would be a good fit for this. He can create separation as a Z or in the slot.  (Honestly I'm glad we didn't end up with Golladay.  We don't need another big WR).

TLDR: Chase can contribute immediately based off skill set, TE is absolutely not a wasted top 10 pick in today's NFL.

[CarolinaBengalFanGuy]

I’m going to take Sewell. Generational talents on the line are harder to find than wide receivers.

Honestly if Mike or anyone in the war room is unsure of who to take then ask Joe himself.

Name one superstar WR tom Brady has had besides Randy Moss.

[Essex Johnson]

(03-21-2021, 01:31 AM)CardCounterChris Wrote: TE is hugely underrated.  Let's look at the TE's on previous superbowl teams:

55: KC (Kelce) vs TB (Brate/Gronk)
54: SF (Kittle) vs KC (Kelce)
53: NE (Gronk) vs LAR (Higbee)
52:NE (Gronk) vs Phi (Ertz)
51: NE (Gronk) vs Falcons (Toilolo)*
50: CAR (Olsen) vs DEN (Owens/Virgil)*

That's a lot of Kelce and Gronk.  Then you have names such as Ertz/Kettle/Olsen.  Higbee had a good season the year they went to the Super Bowl.  Only the two teams marked with * weren't very productive.  Can you make a solid team without a TE? Sure.  Its not as important as say a QB, but in today's NFL, TE is at a premium.  I think a lot of us who remember 90s football tend to undervalue the position.  TE's are weapons today, they aren't vestigial FBs.  Pitts is 100% not a commitment to losing!  To be honest, we should stop referring to them as TE and as a Y.

The Bengals problem isn't talent at the Receiver position. Its the type of players they pick up.  Cincy love's their X's.  They love big guys like Higgins, Green, and Tate.   Boyd can flirt between X and Z, but Cincy really needs a solid Y and a slot guy.  Chase would be a good fit for this. He can create separation as a Z or in the slot.  (Honestly I'm glad we didn't end up with Golladay.  We don't need another big WR).

TLDR: Chase can contribute immediately based off skill set, TE is absolutely not a wasted top 10 pick in today's NFL.

from your scenario  i guess QBs are very underrated since you have Brady and Mahomes in 1/2 those games... lol... it is a small sample but you do know if Uzomah averaged for the year what he did first two games, he would have ended up top 5 TE in the league but still with only around 700 yards... no way am i taking my #5 with a Tight End

[Murdock2420]

(03-21-2021, 01:31 AM)CardCounterChris Wrote: TE is hugely underrated.  Let's look at the TE's on previous superbowl teams:

55: KC (Kelce) vs TB (Brate/Gronk)
54: SF (Kittle) vs KC (Kelce)
53: NE (Gronk) vs LAR (Higbee)
52:NE (Gronk) vs Phi (Ertz)
51: NE (Gronk) vs Falcons (Toilolo)*
50: CAR (Olsen) vs DEN (Owens/Virgil)*

That's a lot of Kelce and Gronk.  Then you have names such as Ertz/Kettle/Olsen.  Higbee had a good season the year they went to the Super Bowl.  Only the two teams marked with * weren't very productive.  Can you make a solid team without a TE? Sure.  Its not as important as say a QB, but in today's NFL, TE is at a premium.  I think a lot of us who remember 90s football tend to undervalue the position.  TE's are weapons today, they aren't vestigial FBs.  Pitts is 100% not a commitment to losing!  To be honest, we should stop referring to them as TE and as a Y.

The Bengals problem isn't talent at the Receiver position. Its the type of players they pick up.  Cincy love's their X's.  They love big guys like Higgins, Green, and Tate.   Boyd can flirt between X and Z, but Cincy really needs a solid Y and a slot guy.  Chase would be a good fit for this. He can create separation as a Z or in the slot.  (Honestly I'm glad we didn't end up with Golladay.  We don't need another big WR).

TLDR: Chase can contribute immediately based off skill set, TE is absolutely not a wasted top 10 pick in today's NFL.

So, those teams also all had good offensive lines that allowed their QB to stay healthy and win games and get them through the season.

Why are people so eager to get Burrow killed again??

Let's be real. This team isn't going to the Super Bowl next season. They just aren't there yet. There is several holes that need to be filled and still upgrades to be made that one draft isn't going to fix.

Pitts is a waste on a team that has Jordan and XSF as starting guards. Chase is a waste on a team that has Jordan and XSF as starting guards.

I'm not saying they aren't talented but they aren't the talent we need on this team right now.

This team needs 3 more guys on the O-line (Hopkins is hurt and could be upgraded anyways) to be stout and consistent.

When you have a full season of 5 guys working together and keeping Burrow off IR, then go get any toy you want at any position. Until you have 5 guys keeping him safe, stop wasting picks.

[CardCounterChris]

(03-21-2021, 01:45 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: from your scenario  i guess QBs are very underrated since you have Brady and Mahomes in 1/2 those games... lol... it is a small sample but you do know if Uzomah averaged for the year what he did first two games, he would have ended up top 5 TE in the league but still with only around 700 yards... no way am i taking my #5 with a Tight End

When we all agree that QB is important, didn't think we'd need to do a visualization.  I was only highlighting that the really good teams typically had really good tight ends.  But sure, I'll play along:


55: KC (Mahomes) vs TB (Brady)

54: SF (Jimmy G)* vs KC (Mahomes)
53: NE (Brady) vs LAR (Goff)*
52:NE (Brady) vs Phi (Wentz)
51: NE (Brady) vs Falcons (Ryan)
50: CAR (Cam) vs DEN (Peyton)


Mahomes cracks the list twice.  The Goat is here a grand total of 4 times.  Ryan and Cam were having MVP seasons.


Peyton gets a pass for being Peyton, but that last season was really carried by the rest of the team.
Jimmy G and Goff were serviceable the years they went to the Super Bowl.  Good QBs are indeed important.


As far as C.J. goes...I think he's lukewarm water.  If I'm thirsty, I'll drink it, but if you offer me ice, why would I turn it down? 2 TE sets are also important.  In that case Pitts/CJ is way better than CJ/Sample.  


My problem with the Bengals in general is raising players above their status simply because we like them. "He'd be top 5 if only...." If only what?
A.) He stayed healthy?
B.) He had a season with over 50 catches?
C.) He had a season with 500 yards?
D.) He had more than 10 career TD receptions?
E.) All of the above.


I think CJ is a fine player. I like having him for depth. He can produce.  However, I don't think CJ is even in the conversation for top 10 TEs in the league. If you want to say O Line is more important in the draft, it probably is, but I'm willing to wait to see what happens with free agency before crossing that road.  But the reasoning of CJ Uzomah is on the roster so we should pass on a generational TE is pretty horrible IMO. 

[CardCounterChris]

(03-21-2021, 01:48 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: So, those teams also all had good offensive lines that allowed their QB to stay healthy and win games and get them through the season.

Why are people so eager to get Burrow killed again??

Let's be real. This team isn't going to the Super Bowl next season. They just aren't there yet. There is several holes that need to be filled and still upgrades to be made that one draft isn't going to fix.

Pitts is a waste on a team that has Jordan and XSF as starting guards. Chase is a waste on a team that has Jordan and XSF as starting guards.

I'm not saying they aren't talented but they aren't the talent we need on this team right now.

This team needs 3 more guys on the O-line (Hopkins is hurt and could be upgraded anyways) to be stout and consistent.

When you have a full season of 5 guys working together and keeping Burrow off IR, then go get any toy you want at any position. Until you have 5 guys keeping him safe, stop wasting picks.

Above in another comment I stated I'd rather have Sewell.  Let's be honest, any player can bust.  Does Sewell look like a future HoF lineman, he sure does!  He's also really young with not a lot of college ball behind him.  Do I think a tackle is slightly less valuable now that we secured Riley Reiff? Yes, but he's also not a long term solution.  I'm 100% on board with Sewell.  But lets say we pick up another Guard or two in free agency.  Is Sewell still more important for this year than Pitts?

I'm not so much advocating the pick should be Pitts or Chase as I am saying that to think if we end up with either of them that the team is doomed from the start.  Honestly, I'd be happy with any of the three and how the team fills the rest of the roster around that pick is far more relevant.

EDIT: MY order of preference as of today where we sit with FA signings would be: Sewell>Pitts>Chase. But all 3 have the potential to be worthy of a top 5 pick long term.

[Murdock2420]

(03-21-2021, 01:42 AM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: I’m going to take Sewell. Generational talents on the line are harder to find than wide receivers.

Honestly if Mike or anyone in the war room is unsure of who to take then ask Joe himself.

Name one superstar WR tom Brady has had besides Randy Moss.

People will say Welker and Edelman and other names will get tossed around.

Brady looks amazing because he has always had a strong O-line that kept him clean. (His Super Bowl losses are win the Giants sacked him and pressured him endlessly.), he is a talented QB and being a talented QB behind a really stout O-line he was able to elevate the play of average WRs, not too mention the system in New England was damn near perfectly built.

Give Burrow an offensive line of studs (we don't have the scouts and development that New England or Pitt or others have so you have to take the sure things on the line) and watch what he can do when he actually can step back, set his feet and look over the field. The kid can be amazing if they do the right thing and protect him.


Then in rounds 4 and after you look at:

DYAMI BROWN, NORTH CAROLINA

Brown has got some of the best releases of any receiver in this draft class. And he better with how often North Carolina’s offense asked him to get vertical. His career average depth of target in three seasons for the Tar Heels was a ridiculous 17.1 yards downfield. For comparison, Rashod Bateman’s is the second-highest of any receiver in this top 10 at only 13.7 yards.

For those of you wanting a deep threat...


or

TYLAN WALLACE, OKLAHOMA STATE

With 205 catches, 3,424 yards, and 25 touchdowns in his career, Wallace trails only DeVonta Smith in the draft class in terms of raw production. He’s a former track standout who can separate deep and also win at the catch point, with 44 contested catches in his career.



But what about TE Murdock... we want Pitts...


No worries... got you covered as well...

BREVIN JORDAN, MIAMI (FL.)

Per 247Sports' composite ranking, Brevin Jordan was the top tight end prospect in the country coming out of Bishop Gorman High School in Las Vegas. Jordan racked up 63 receptions for 1,111 yards and 13 touchdowns during his senior season. He had 31 offers in total — a list that included nearly every blue-blood program in the country — but ultimately signed with Miami. Brevin’s father, Darrell, was drafted by the Atlanta Falcons in the 1990 NFL Draft. Jordan showed up at Miami looking like a running back but being called a tight end. His usage was closer to that of a running back, with an average depth of catch of only 3.4 yards downfield. After filling out his frame a bit more, Jordan still looks like a running back, only now that running back is Derrick Henry. Jordan has a very clear path to success in a Shanahan-Kubiak scheme that runs its tight ends on a lot of drags, flats and seams where speed and YAC are king. The problem is that he'll have to prove to defenses that he's a legit inline threat first.


So... he is a big bodied bad ass weapon that wasn't used to run deep routes, but was used on short crosses and then used to blow up defenders... gee that sounds like how we use TE's in this offense.


or...


Hunter Long, TE, Boston College


 Long had a good 2020 season, showing solid pass-receiving ability for the next level. He could be a solid tight end who could become a starter or a good No. 2 or 3 tight end. Long is a solid blocker and looks like a potential starting Y tight end for the NFL.


In the passing game, Long has good size does an excellent job of winning contested catches. He uses his build to wall off defenders with skilled body control and awareness to put himself in between the ball and coverage. Long has soft reliable hands and good concentration to secure the catch while defenders are initiating contact. Long is a good red-zone contributor as a result, functioning well on underneath routes. Going down the seam and along the sideline, Long is a weapon to make catches over defenders when nothing else is open.



There is talent in later rounds at TE and WR that can come in and start on day 1.

There is talent in later rounds on the O-line but they are developmental guys that will need work or coming off major injury like Landon Dickerson.

This is a must get it right moment and the right is keeping Burrow from a 2nd major knee surgery do to shit O-line play.


CarolinaBengalFanGuy - The only part of this that was directed towards you was the agreement on Brady lol... sorry, I just got off track as I typed.

[Wes Mantooth]

(03-21-2021, 01:42 AM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: Name one superstar WR tom Brady has had besides Randy Moss.

Well, he had 3 fantastic receivers this year:  Mike Evans, Chris Godwin, and Antonio Brown.  Not to mention a Tight End group of Gronk, Cameron Brate and OJ Howard.

Evans and Godwin both finished in the top 10 in yardage in 2019.  And they still went out and brought in Antonio Brown.

He also had a prime Gronk and a pre-murder Aaron Hernandez for a few years in New England, which was a pretty revolutionary offense.

And while perhaps not a traditional superstar, people may forget that Wes Welker had the following reception totals in New England...
112, 111, 123, 122, 118

And here's his yardage totals...1,175, 1,165, 1,348, 1,569, 1,334.

If I asked you if this stat-line was superstar level what would say?  122 rec, 1,569 yards, and 9 TD's? Cuz that''s a Wes Welker stat-line in New England post Randy Moss.

Lastly, Tom Brady is the greatest QB of all time.  Hands down.  It's not even a contest anymore.  So he's probably not the best guy to bring up when trying to determing the weapons needed to succeed in this leage.  The guy has been successful with everyone he's played with for the last 20 years.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(03-21-2021, 02:26 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Well, he had 3 fantastic receivers this year:  Mike Evans, Chris Godwin, and Antonio Brown.  Not to mention a Tight End group of Gronk, Cameron Brate and OJ Howard.

Evans and Godwin both finished in the top 10 in yardage in 2019.  And they still went out and brought in Antonio Brown.

He also had a prime Gronk and a pre-murder Aaron Hernandez for a few years in New England, which was a pretty revolutionary offense.

And while perhaps not a traditional superstar, people may forget that Wes Welker had the following reception totals in New England...
112, 111, 123, 122, 118

And here's his yardage totals...1,175, 1,165, 1,348, 1,569, 1,334.

If I asked you if this stat-line was superstar level what would say?  122 rec, 1,569 yards, and 9 TD's?  Cuz that''s a Wes Welker stat-line in New England post Randy Moss.

Lastly, Tom Brady is the greatest QB of all time.  Hands down.  It's not even a contest anymore.  So he's probably not the best guy to bring up when trying to determing the weapons needed to succeed in this leage.  The guy has been successful with everyone he's played with for the last 20 years.

Pre-jail, not pre-murder.