Duke Tobin

[lone bengal]

The future success of Burrow will depend on Tobin hitting big in the draft. The Bengals currently have no good young guards on the roster, no future RT and Hopkins is coming off an ACL. Seems like the plan to address the line long term is hope Sewell is there at 5 and if not hope Tobin can hit on multiple offensive lineman in later rounds while still addressing other needs with 8 picks. Considering Tobins recent track record with offensive lineman I’m not confident he can draft one let alone two quality lineman. Tobins a big reason why were in this mess by drafting Ogbuehi, Fisher, Price, Jordan, trading for Cordy Glenn , signing John Miller, drafting Ross 9th overall, multiple years of awful linebacker drafts, signing/ resigning Preston Brown, reaching for Sample round 2 and hiring this current coaching staff that’s won 6 games in two years.

[XenoMorph]

(03-24-2021, 09:55 AM)lone bengal Wrote: The future success of Burrow will depend on Tobin hitting big in the draft. The Bengals currently have no good young guards on the roster, no future RT and Hopkins is coming off an ACL.  Seems like the plan to address the line long term is hope Sewell is there at 5 and if not hope Tobin can hit on multiple offensive lineman in later rounds while still addressing other needs with 8 picks. Considering Tobins recent track record with offensive lineman I’m not confident he can draft one let alone two quality lineman. Tobins a big reason why were in this mess by drafting Ogbuehi, Fisher, Price, Jordan, trading for Cordy Glenn , signing John Miller, drafting Ross 9th overall, multiple years of awful linebacker drafts, signing/ resigning Preston Brown, reaching for Sample round 2 and hiring this current coaching staff that’s won 6 games in two years.

While i dont think Duke is responsible for everything you list here.

We do need to hit on OL in free agency & Draft.    Now who best helps us is up for debate personally id take a OL guy that can play multiple spots 

[WeezyBengal]

Its not only about the draft. You can add one through free agency or through trade.

You are right though, our current OL is either on one year deals or aging. Did they lock up Reiff to more than one year? I've heard conflicting things.

[lone bengal]

(03-24-2021, 10:06 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Its not only about the draft. You can add one through free agency or through trade.

You are right though, our current OL is either on one year deals or aging. Did they lock up Reiff to more than one year? I've heard conflicting things.

I think the Bengals have made it evident that they won’t pay big money for free agent offensive lineman and that they still don’t value the guard position. They’ve had 6 years of bad line play and there QB just got killed and they still didn’t address the line like they should have. Most teams don’t let good offensive lineman walk and if they do the Bengals aren’t going to win a bidding war. I believe the Bengals can void Reiff’s 2nd year or something like that.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(03-24-2021, 10:06 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Its not only about the draft. You can add one through free agency or through trade.

You are right though, our current OL is either on one year deals or aging. Did they lock up Reiff to more than one year? I've heard conflicting things.

It's a 2 year deal for cap purposes only (IIRC, he will get paid a bonus next year, which is part of his 2021 salary, which affects the 2022 cap, which will be higher), as the second year has been voided.

Thus, effectively, it is a 1 year deal.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

Sewell is a no-brainer at 5.

Slater would be good value if we trade back.

There are some pretty good OL projected in rounds 2-3. Leatherwood. Davis. Etc. We aren't relying on Duke's expertise. We are relying in Pollack's. Much safer bet.

Scenario #1. Sewell available at #5. Take Sewell. Period. One of Jonah, Sewell, or Reiff move to G. We likely draft a G/C in round 2 or 3. WR also likely there.

Scenario #2: Sewell gone. I'd simply take Chase at that point. Though trading down and taking Slater/Smith/Waddle plus nabbing an extra 2nd is tempting. 1 QB has to be on the board if Sewell is gone when we pick. Depends on how far back we are moving and the haul in return.

Scenario #3. Both Sewell & Chase are gone.

Now, at least 2 QBs are on the board at #5. Stay & take Pitts/Smith, or move down? I favor moving down here. But not by much. And only so far. Still need a shot at Derrishaw/Waddle (worst case) or Slater/Smith/Pitts (if only a couple spots down). The added pick needs to be 2021, not 2022. We need help now.

[lone bengal]

(03-24-2021, 10:39 AM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Sewell is a no-brainer at 5.

Slater would be good value if we trade back.

There are some pretty good OL projected in rounds 2-3. Leatherwood. Davis. Etc. We aren't relying on Duke's expertise. We are relying in Pollack's. Much safer bet.

Scenario #1. Sewell available at #5. Take Sewell. Period. One of Jonah, Sewell, or Reiff move to G. We likely draft a G/C in round 2 or 3. WR also likely there.

Scenario #2: Sewell gone. I'd simply take Chase at that point. Though trading down and taking Slater/Smith/Waddle plus nabbing an extra 2nd is tempting. 1 QB has to be on the board if Sewell is gone when we pick. Depends on how far back we are moving and the haul in return.

Scenario #3. Both Sewell & Chase are gone.

Now, at least 2 QBs are on the board at #5. Stay & take Pitts/Smith, or move down? I favor moving down here. But not by much. And only so far. Still need a shot at Derrishaw/Waddle (worst case) or Slater/Smith/Pitts (if only a couple spots down). The added pick needs to be 2021, not 2022. We need help now.

Sewell all day if he’s available. I think we’ve overrated Pollack / offensive line coaches in general the most important thing is that the player has talent you can only do so much with bad offensive lineman. We’ve blamed Turner and Alexander for are poor line play when all the players have been signed/ drafted under Tobin. The run O was better under Pollack but Hart had his worst season, we started guys like Remond and he couldn’t fix Price. Pollock was also released by Dallas before he came to us. I’m fine with trading down as long as you have multiple targets because yours might be gone when you pick. Finding a tackle in round 2 scares me because that tackle run gets crazy.

[CoachGeorge]

(03-24-2021, 09:55 AM)lone bengal Wrote: The Bengals currently have no good young guards on the roster, no future RT

I don’t agree with this assessment at all. Young OL typically take a few years before you know what you have (sometimes longer). It is WAY to early to right off Jordan, Adeniji, Johnson, etc. (even Price). Put a good coach (Pollack) and give him some time you very well might have an above average starter on your hands. Do you rely on that? No. But it’s premature to make a declaration that all our young lineman suck.

Tobin took the 2nd highest center in round one. He absolutely wasn’t the only one who might have missed on that one (for example). Most teams boards are very similar. Heck, the majority on the forum thought Price was a excellent pick. You never know.

[Sled21]

I don't think Tobin is making the picks in a vacuum. He is getting constant input from the coaches on which players they want.

[BengalFanInNJ]

And next year’s salary cap is going to be higher, which means more teams spending more money. You think a Joe Thuney was expensive this year, wait until next year with that crop of free-agent linemen. Isn’t going to get cheaper.

[lone bengal]

(03-24-2021, 11:11 AM)CoachGeorge Wrote: I don’t agree with this assessment at all.  Young OL typically take a few years before you know what you have (sometimes longer).  It is WAY to early to right off Jordan, Adeniji, Johnson, etc. (even Price). Put a good coach (Pollack) and give him some time you very well might have an above average starter on your hands.  Do you rely on that? No.  But it’s premature to make a declaration that all our young lineman suck.

Tobin took the 2nd highest center in round one.  He absolutely wasn’t the only one who might have missed on that one (for example).  Most teams boards are very similar.  Heck, the majority on the forum thought Price was a excellent pick.  You never know.

Price has been bad for 3 years they have Hopkins when he returns and there's no way they'll pick up Price's 5th year option at that cost next year. Plus Price has no position versatility he's awful as a guard. It's to early to write off Adeniji and Johnson but percentage wise undrafted and 6th round picks typically don't pan out. I didn't expect Jordan to be good as a 4th round rookie starting but most players get better in year 2 and Jordan regressed big time he played awful this year. I wound't hate on Tobin for a few misses but he's strung together a lot of bad drafts of late. 

[lone bengal]

(03-24-2021, 11:13 AM)Sled21 Wrote: I don't think Tobin is making the picks in a vacuum. He is getting constant input from the coaches on which players they want.

Agree but if Tobin dosen't agree with a pick the coaches want he needs to make the final call considering he's the one who's been scouting the prospects all year. The front office stated Tobin made the call on hiring Taylor so that's also on him if things don't work. 

[Sled21]

(03-24-2021, 11:53 AM)lone bengal Wrote: Price has been bad for 3 years they have Hopkins when he returns and there's no way they'll pick up Price's 5th year option at that cost next year. Plus Price has no position versatility he's awful as a guard. It's to early to write off Adeniji and Johnson but percentage wise undrafted and 6th round picks typically don't pan out. I didn't expect Jordan to be good as a 4th round rookie starting but most players get better in year 2 and Jordan regressed big time he played awful this year. I wound't hate on Tobin for a few misses but he's strung together a lot of bad drafts of late. 

I think when you are talking about "misses" in the draft, you not only have to look at where we had the player ranked, but where other teams had the player ranked. Pretty much the whole league thought Price was the 2nd best Center prospect after Ragnow. Now if Tobin and crew go out on a limb nobody else likes, that's one thing, but highly ranked players who just don't compete once they get to the NFL are a fact of life in this business.

[Sled21]

(03-24-2021, 11:59 AM)lone bengal Wrote: Agree but if Tobin dosen't agree with a pick the coaches want he needs to make the final call considering he's the one who's been scouting the prospects all year. The front office stated Tobin made the call on hiring Taylor so that's also on him if things don't work. 

I think that one is on Katie, and I don't care what the front office says about it. She wanted him.

[grampahol]

Tobin is not the entirety of who gets picked or signed. He doesn't negotiate salaries and compensation packages for the team. There are other equally responsible individuals who muck up things for the team as well..  That's not to let Tobin off the hook, but some of you act as if he and he alone makes all decisions. He doesn't.

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(03-24-2021, 11:11 AM)CoachGeorge Wrote: I don’t agree with this assessment at all.  Young OL typically take a few years before you know what you have (sometimes longer).  It is WAY to early to right off Jordan, Adeniji, Johnson, etc. (even Price). Put a good coach (Pollack) and give him some time you very well might have an above average starter on your hands.  Do you rely on that? No.  But it’s premature to make a declaration that all our young lineman suck.

Tobin took the 2nd highest center in round one.  He absolutely wasn’t the only one who might have missed on that one (for example).  Most teams boards are very similar.  Heck, the majority on the forum thought Price was a excellent pick.  You never know.

*third highest center - James Daniels was a better prospect

PFF had Price the 5th Center fwiw.

It is also rare for two centers to be taken in the first round. Tobin reached for a center lacking elite attributes in the first round because he failed to address the position in free agency and so panicked when Ragnow went off the board as he needed an immediate starter. At least with Reiff we don't have to take Slater at 5.

[Clark W Griswold]

They have had some bad drafts in the past but if Tobin ends up getting a draft class like last year’s then I will be very happy.

[kalibengal]

(03-24-2021, 12:29 PM)Sled21 Wrote: I think when you are talking about "misses" in the draft, you not only have to look at where we had the player ranked, but where other teams had the player ranked. Pretty much the whole league thought Price was the 2nd best Center prospect after Ragnow. Now if Tobin and crew go out on a limb nobody else likes, that's one thing, but highly ranked players who just don't compete once they get to the NFL are a fact of life in this business.

assuming we stand pat with current FA signings..I think we should grab a guy like Creed Humphrey (Rd 2 /3) who can swing G/C and seems like a cant miss pick.  

[WeezyBengal]

(03-24-2021, 10:39 AM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Sewell is a no-brainer at 5.

Slater would be good value if we trade back.

There are some pretty good OL projected in rounds 2-3. Leatherwood. Davis. Etc. We aren't relying on Duke's expertise. We are relying in Pollack's. Much safer bet.

Scenario #1. Sewell available at #5. Take Sewell. Period. One of Jonah, Sewell, or Reiff move to G. We likely draft a G/C in round 2 or 3. WR also likely there.

Scenario #2: Sewell gone. I'd simply take Chase at that point. Though trading down and taking Slater/Smith/Waddle plus nabbing an extra 2nd is tempting. 1 QB has to be on the board if Sewell is gone when we pick. Depends on how far back we are moving and the haul in return.

Scenario #3. Both Sewell & Chase are gone.

Now, at least 2 QBs are on the board at #5. Stay & take Pitts/Smith, or move down? I favor moving down here. But not by much. And only so far. Still need a shot at Derrishaw/Waddle (worst case) or Slater/Smith/Pitts (if only a couple spots down). The added pick needs to be 2021, not 2022. We need help now.

And this is exactly why I'm out on an OL with the first pick. 

I think Chase and Pitts are both UNBELIEVABLE talents and weapons that can transform an offense. Some scouts have them as the THE top prospects in the draft. This is who I'm taking with a top 5 pick. 

You can sure up offensive line in round 2 and still get a quality starter. Its a deep class for OL. 

I'm sorry, but I'm just not spending a top 5 pick on an offensive lineman who hasn't played in a year.

[CanadianBengal]

(03-24-2021, 03:36 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: And this is exactly why I'm out on an OL with the first pick. 

I think Chase and Pitts are both UNBELIEVABLE talents and weapons that can transform an offense. Some scouts have them as the THE top prospects in the draft. This is who I'm taking with a top 5 pick. 

You can sure up offensive line in round 2 and still get a quality starter. Its a deep class for OL. 

I'm sorry, but I'm just not spending a top 5 pick on an offensive lineman who hasn't played in a year.

Chase didn't play either 

Problem with going Chase or Pitts is that if Joe does not have time to throw --it limits the routes those two can run and negates their strengths. Two biggest concerns about Joe last year -- Having to rush and not working through progressions and the deep ball. I think both are a product of no time. If he does not get time --he cannot develop and therefore won't able to use Pitts or Chase fully. Bengals need to plan for the next 3-5 years and not try to take a short cut. Developing Burrows is the most important task they had and they should have prioritized that last year and definitely need to this year. I would love to add Chase or Pitts but the O-Line being good is most important. Jonah was good when he played and Reif is solid. Hopkins is below average and hurt. Spain and XSF are good back-ups. Turner --if he signed could compete with those two but is far from a sure thing. If they had signed a very good guard I could have moved from Sewell/Slater to Chase but right now --the O-Line is still pretty crappy