PFF's Seth Galina breakdown of Joe Burrow 2020.

[fredtoast]

(04-10-2021, 09:13 AM)Bronxbengal Wrote: So when does the get rid of Joe Burrow threads start?  This is so nit picking which is laughable.  Burrow had a horrible line and some are criticizing his long throw accuracy?  I don’t remember Payton, Brady or even Drew Brees having the cannon arm.  All three of these guys had the supporting cast and most important very high football IQ.  Burrow has the high IQ.


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Throwing a good deep pass is more about timing and accuracy than arm strength.  Burrow does not have a cannon, but he has plenty of arm strength to be a great NFL QB.

[PDub80]

(04-10-2021, 08:59 AM)fredtoast Wrote: All I did was quote an article you posted that said he ranked 31st in accuracy on deep passes.

Don't blame me for information you provided.

Context is important and I pointed out several times why those statements were fine regarding certain aspects of Burrows game and why they should be taken less than biblical from a big picture/macro view... But I respected the statistical data, which was the point, since I was using it to illustrate 1 aspect of the Bengals offense and tying several statistics together.

You latched on to 2 or 3 sentences from the article to twist the discussion into Joe Burrow not being an accurate passer after I said and showed the Bengals WR group being the weakest position groups on the team. You were being argumentative to try and save face and it made zero sense, other than for personal reasons and to defend yourself after I refuted your objection to a statement I made with a TON OF DIFFERENT DATA and you felt the only vine to cling to in all of that was a few sentences.

You weren't trying to further discussion or add anything. You wanted to try and find some teeny, tiny thing you could be right about to save face. Which is weird, because it was YOU who agressively came at me to call BS on a point I made. I only provided information to back it all up in response.

This is like talking to a teenager who did something stupid and keeps trying to go back to "but you said" as an excuse while completely ignoring context, reason, or sense. Literal thinking like that tends to be idiotic and child like.

[PDub80]

(04-10-2021, 10:18 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Throwing a good deep pass is more about timing and accuracy than arm strength.  Burrow does not have a cannon, but he has plenty of arm strength to be a great NFL QB.

Feel free to read up on scouting reports on Burrow regarding arm strength and how he rainbows deep passes into buckets/zones instead of driving them down field. This is ARM STRENGTH related. The negative to this style of throwing is that it gives NFL DBs the extra time they need to adjust and catch up.

Can this be helped with accuracy, timing, scheme, etc? YES. With PRACTICE (Burrow got in very limited offseason work with his teammates last year)? YES. No one should be worrying about Burrow's deep passes at this point in his career. He has historically been a very accurate deep ball thrower.

[fredtoast]

(04-10-2021, 10:27 AM)PDub80 Wrote: You latched on to 2 or 3 sentences from the article to twist the discussion into Joe Burrow not being an accurate passer after I said and showed the Bengals WR group being the weakest position groups on the team.

You never showed that the WR group was the weakest position group on the team.  Both Boyd and Higgins rank higher at their position than anyone we have on the O-line except maybe Reiff.

[*Synric*]

A consistent run game will open up the third level alot more which was an issue in 2020. The Bengals seen a ton of cover 2/3 in 2020 which is very difficult to complete deep throws against because you have to drop it in between the corner and the safeties.

If the Bengals get the run game going which will open up playaction you'll see alot better deep balls.

[fredtoast]

(04-10-2021, 10:27 AM)PDub80 Wrote: You weren't trying to further discussion or add anything. You wanted to try and find some teeny, tiny thing you could be right about to save face. Which is weird, because it was YOU who agressively came at me to call BS on a point I made. I only provided information to back it all up in response.

This is like talking to a teenager who did something stupid and keeps trying to go back to "but you said" as an excuse while completely ignoring context, reason, or sense. Literal thinking like that tends to be idiotic and child like.

You posted an article that clearly said Burrow was not accurate on deep throws then said that no one in their right mind would say Burrow had a problem with accuracy.

When I pointed out that the ENTIRE article about his deep passes said he had accuracy problems you accused me of "taking it out of context".

This is one of the most bizarre argument I have ever seen here.  You literally posted a link to an article that says the opposite of what you are trying to argue and then attack me for quoting it.

[*Synric*]

In reality the deep passing offense for the Bengals was hit by alot of different things.

#1 Joe was inconsistent with his deep ball
#2 His only vertical receiver AJ Green had an inconsistent year
#3 The Offense struggled to give deep passing opportunities
#4 Defenses were able to stop the run with their defensive front allowing them to run more cover 2/3

All of these were big factors in the deep passing numbers last season.

[fredtoast]

(04-10-2021, 10:46 AM)Synric Wrote: In reality the deep passing offense for the Bengals was hit by alot of different things.

#1 Joe was inconsistent with his deep ball
#2 His only vertical receiver AJ Green had an inconsistent year
#3 The Offense struggled to give deep passing opportunities
#4 Defenses were able to stop the run with their defensive front allowing them to run more cover 2/3

All of these were big factors in the deep passing numbers last season.

Agree  with most of what you say except I don't consider Green to be our only vertical receiver.  Higgins ran a faster forty than Green.  I realize there is more to being a good vertical receiver than just the forty time, but I don't see any reason Higgins can't be one. 

[Bengalfan4life27c]

(04-10-2021, 10:46 AM)Synric Wrote: In reality the deep passing offense for the Bengals was hit by alot of different things.

#1 Joe was inconsistent with his deep ball
#2 His only vertical receiver AJ Green had an inconsistent year
#3 The Offense struggled to give deep passing opportunities
#4 Defenses were able to stop the run with their defensive front allowing them to run more cover 2/3

All of these were big factors in the deep passing numbers last season.

This is a very accurate assessment.

[BobJohnson55]

(04-10-2021, 10:39 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You posted an article that clearly said Burrow was not accurate on deep throws then said that no one in their right mind would say Burrow had a problem with accuracy.

When I pointed out that the ENTIRE article about his deep passes said he had accuracy problems you accused me of "taking it out of context".

This is one of the most bizarre argument I have ever seen here.  You literally posted a link to an article that says the opposite of what you are trying to argue and then attack me for quoting it.

Your guys arguments are hilarious on here

[*Synric*]

(04-10-2021, 11:13 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Agree  with most of what you say except I don't consider Green to be our only vertical receiver.  Higgins ran a faster forty than Green.  I realize there is more to being a good vertical receiver than just the forty time, but I don't see any reason Higgins can't be one. 

Like AJ I believe Tee can develop into that all around very good X receiver but like AJ what Tee does in that short and intermediate part of the field will be what opens up the vertical passing for him. AJ Green was so good at things like 3 and 10 yard sticks which opened up the double move or thr straight 9 because the corners were caught flat footed waiting for him to break down. AJ was also a master of the slant and that opened up the Slant and Go (Sluggo). I think Tee can have similar success in that area.

Then there are guys that are the exact opposite that the vertical threat opens up the underneath routes for them like comebacks etc. The Bengals need a guy like that.

[Nicomo Cosca]

Where are we getting that Tee ran a faster 40 than AJ? Tee ran a 4.54 at his pro day. AJ ran a 4.48 at the 2011 combine. And you can tell just by watching them Tee is a tad slower than AJ was in his prime.

[PDub80]

(04-10-2021, 10:39 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You posted an article that clearly said Burrow was not accurate on deep throws then said that no one in their right mind would say Burrow had a problem with accuracy.

When I pointed out that the ENTIRE article about his deep passes said he had accuracy problems you accused me of "taking it out of context".

This is one of the most bizarre argument I have ever seen here.  You literally posted a link to an article that says the opposite of what you are trying to argue and then attack me for quoting it.

Jesus Christ, you are planting a flag in, like, 4 sentences. You have refused to acknowledge the 5 times I have pointed out that you contextually put blinders on to cling to those 4 sentences as if they were your mother's titty. You are stuck on repeat.

The table he was discussing showed deep ball completion %s. Going by just that, YES, the author said he was inaccurate on those throws. And, YES, just looking at one micro piece if data would lead you to that conclusion.... BUT THEN I DOVE DEEPER INTO STATISTICAL ANALYSIS OF THOSE NUMBERS, PROVIDED DATA AND LINKS ON WR SEPARATION, WE DISCUSSED TIME TO THROW, ETC ETC ALONG WITH SCOUTING REPORTS DISCUSSING HIS ACCURACY BEING CHART TOPPING.

And yet you still cling to 4 sentences about 1 aspect from his rookie year. As if THAT is the only thing that exists or was said. As if THAT is the be all end all on Joe Burrow accuracy.

Hey, man, I get it. You tried to fling mud in my direction and I dropped the hammer down on you, covering you with poop. You're upset and this is all you can come up with. Keep stammering around and repeating yourself. It makes you look smart.

Literally every idiotic rebuttal you came up with was torn up in your face as wrong after you tried to call me out for BS claims, so this is where you're at. Repeating 4 sentences about Joe Burrow not being accurate on deep balls and then repeating "But you said, but you said"..... IN A THREAD DIACCUSING FILM BREAKDOWN WHERE THEY POINT OUT 20X HOW ACCURATE JOE BURROW IS. Weird how you conveniently ignore that.

You're embarrassed. You realized you were wrong. And you're still mad Andy and Marvin aren't in Cincy. This is how you lash out. It's ok, sweety. It's ok.

[fredtoast]

(04-10-2021, 01:51 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Where are we getting that Tee ran a faster 40 than AJ? Tee ran a 4.54 at his pro day. AJ ran a 4.48 at the 2011 combine. And you can tell just by watching them Tee is a tad slower than AJ was in his prime.

Derp.  

I didn't think this seemed right.  If I had taken more than a second to glance at it I would have seen the problem

A.J. Green Draft and Combine Prospect Profile | NFL.com

[fredtoast]

(04-10-2021, 02:14 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Jesus Christ, you are planting a flag in, like, 4 sentences. You have refused to acknowledge the 5 times I have pointed out that you contextually put blinders on to cling to those 4 sentences as if they were your mother's titty. You are stuck on repeat.

The table he was discussing showed deep ball completion %s. Going by just that, YES, the author said he was inaccurate on those throws. And, YES, just looking at one micro piece if data would lead you to that conclusion.... BUT THEN I DOVE DEEPER INTO STATISTICAL ANALYSIS OF THOSE NUMBERS, PROVIDED DATA AND LINKS ON WR SEPARATION, WE DISCUSSED TIME TO THROW, ETC ETC ALONG WITH SCOUTING REPORTS DISCUSSING HIS ACCURACY BEING CHART TOPPING.

And yet you still cling to 4 sentences about 1 aspect from his rookie year. As if THAT is the only thing that exists or was said. As if THAT is the be all end all on Joe Burrow accuracy.

Hey, man, I get it. You tried to fling mud in my direction and I dropped the hammer down on you, covering you with poop. You're upset and this is all you can come up with. Keep stammering around and repeating yourself. It makes you look smart.

Literally every idiotic rebuttal you came up with was torn up in your face as wrong after you tried to call me out for BS claims, so this is where you're at. Repeating 4 sentences about Joe Burrow not being accurate on deep balls and then repeating "But you said, but you said"..... IN A THREAD DIACCUSING FILM BREAKDOWN WHERE THEY POINT OUT 20X HOW ACCURATE JOE BURROW IS. Weird how you conveniently ignore that.

You're embarrassed. You realized you were wrong. And you're still mad Andy and Marvin aren't in Cincy. This is how you lash out. It's ok, sweety. It's ok.

This is getting a little ridiculous.

1.  Separation is a receiver stat that has nothing to do with the QBs accuracy.  Since they don't even include the incompletions it shows nothing about why the passes were incomplete.  You have not shown ANY correlation between accurate QBs and the separation numbers for their receivers.

2,  I never said Burrow has any problems with accuracy other than on deep throws.  Most people who watched him play agree with me.

3.  Your reliance on college scouting reports is pretty meaningless when we have real world NFL production to analyze.  Why don't you try and convince everyone that JaMarcus Russell is a great NFL QB while you are at it?

[fredtoast]

(04-10-2021, 02:15 PM)PDub80 Wrote: The guy who wrote that does not live in a fact based reality.

He also thinks tbe WR group is good to go. He also loved Andy & Marvin. Soooooo, he's clearly a moron.

I said the WR group was better than the O-line.  I have said repeatedly that we have to add talent at WR.  Post a link to me saying we don't need to add talent at WR or STFU with these childish lies.


Also how about a sig bet that I can quote 20 posts where I said Marvin had to go and that Burrow is better than Dalton.  Take the bet or STFU.

[Earendil]

(04-10-2021, 12:20 PM)BobJohnson55 Wrote: Your guys arguments are hilarious on here

I believe you spelled "irritating" wrong...

[*Synric*]

Everyone is so worried about the deep passing and is just glossing over how outstanding Joey B was in that intermediate range that is usually a struggle for young QBs. He throws accurate touch passes into tight windows with amazing ball placement which leads to extra yards after catch.

[fredtoast]

(04-10-2021, 02:53 PM)Synric Wrote: Everyone is so worried about the deep passing and is just glossing over how outstanding Joey B was in that intermediate range that is usually a struggle for young QBs. He throws accurate touch passes into tight windows with amazing ball placement which leads to extra yards after catch.

I don't think anyone is glossing over his elite short to medium accuracy.  Fans here talk about it all the time.

I think the deep ball stats are coming up more right now because of the draft and some fans assertion that our #1 need is a deep threat WR.

[J24]

(04-10-2021, 10:37 AM)Synric Wrote: A consistent run game will open up the third level alot more which was an issue in 2020. The Bengals seen a ton of cover 2/3 in 2020 which is very difficult to complete deep throws against because you have to drop it in between the corner and the safeties.

If the Bengals get the run game going which will open up playaction you'll see alot better deep balls.

This!