Question for Drafting Chase Supporters

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-22-2021, 12:45 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: To think we could still start the season with 4 players starting from.last years line and many will be so excited that we have Chase..lol..

That is a little rich, Essex.  XSF went down very early in the season (week 1, I believe) and showed he played fairly well when he returned.  Bobby Hart is gone and Mike Jordan should be a mile away from being a starter on this line. 

You would have Jonah returning, as well as Hopkins if he is ready week 1.  I would hardly call XSF the reason the line sucked so bad in the early going last year.  You had a revolving door at RG after he went down with Fred Johnson and Alex Redmond.  Both are pretty far from starting this next year.  

In reality, the line would have the following:

LT:  Jonah in year 2
LG:  Winner of XSF/Spain competition.  An injury doesn't kill them like a year ago, and Jordan isn't being forced in to the lineup.
C:  Hopkins
RG:  Likely a developmental OT from Rd 2, or a dedicated G from Rd 3, like Ben Cleveland or Deonte Brown.  Massive upgrade here.
RT:  Riley Reiff, solid veteran and upgrade on Hart.

So, in reality, you have upgrades at three of the five spots and Frank Pollack to boot.  

[Burma]

(04-23-2021, 11:57 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Now, look at what the offense did against pitt and Baltimore.  Nothing.  They were able to shut down Boyd and Higgins.  Those bigger, longer-striding WR that don't have the phone booth quicks of a player like Chase were blanketed.  
The bottom line:  I see a much greater drop off in talent from Chase to the likes of Dyami Brown or others that may be there in Rd 2, than I do with Sewell compared to some of the players that could be long-term solutions at RT for the Bengals.  

FWIW, I won't be upset if they draft Sewell, but I would prefer Chase for the reasons I have outlined above.  You have to beat your division foes to win your division.  I think Chase helps them to that more than any player in the draft.  

How much of this is a complete inability of the offensive line to facilitate a solid rushing attack and letting Baltimore scheme to stop the pass?  Look at the rushing stats for the 2 games against Baltimore last season.  There was no threat for the Bengals to move the ball on the ground at all. I can't see having 1 more WR is going to do anyting to change this. Are we expecting a rookie Chase to be able to beat All Pro press man specialist Marcus Peters, or the other All Pro CB, Marlon Humphrey? That is a lot to ask of a rookie WR. 

Oct 11th matchup:
Leading Rushers: 
Mixon 24 carries, 59 yards
Burrow 3 carries, 10 yards
Mike Thomas 1 carry 1 yard

Totals: 28 carries, 70 yards, 2.5 ypc (Baltimore 161 yards, 6.7 ypc)


Jan 3rd matchup:
Bengals rushing yards at halftime: 24

Totals:  19 carries, 147 yards, 7.7 ypc (Seriously, the garbage stats here are ridiculous)

[Whatever]

(04-23-2021, 12:57 PM)Burma Wrote: How much of this is a complete inability of the offensive line to facilitate a solid rushing attack and letting Baltimore scheme to stop the pass?  Look at the rushing stats for the 2 games against Baltimore last season.  There was no threat for the Bengals to move the ball on the ground at all. I can't see having 1 more WR is going to do anyting to change this. Are we expecting a rookie Chase to be able to beat All Pro press man specialist Marcus Peters, or the other All Pro CB, Marlon Humphrey? That is a lot to ask of a rookie WR. 

Oct 11th matchup:
Leading Rushers: 
Mixon 24 carries, 59 yards
Burrow 3 carries, 10 yards
Mike Thomas 1 carry 1 yard

Totals: 28 carries, 70 yards, 2.5 ypc (Baltimore 161 yards, 6.7 ypc)


Jan 3rd matchup:
Bengals rushing yards at halftime: 24

Totals:  19 carries, 147 yards, 7.7 ypc (Seriously, the garbage stats here are ridiculous)

The Steelers swept the Ravens with 48 and 68 rushing yards in both games.  Meanwhile, the Browns with their OL and best RB duo in the league got swept by the Ravens.  

[BenZoo2]

Here’s my 2 cents since I have mostly avoided getting into this topic. I was on the Sewell train early and pounding my chest for him. I’ll still be happy if the take him at 5.

I’ll be happy with chase at 5 too. I’ve done a number of mocks and I generally like the ol available in rd 2 or later than I do the wrs. This draft is heavy for slot type wrs. Not what we need.

While reiff will probably not be as good long term as Sewell it allowed the bengals to move tackle down the list this year if even into next. Our biggest issue is the interior ol and we haven’t added to that at all.

And maybe I’ve read to many posts on here but o have started to wonder if, between the two, Sewell may have more bust potential. No data to support this, just an opinion between the two. Chase gives us the alpha wr we don’t have.

So I’m fine with either. Or Pitts. Or a trade back if the offer is good enough


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Burma]

(04-23-2021, 01:28 PM)Whatever Wrote: The Steelers swept the Ravens with 48 and 68 rushing yards in both games.  Meanwhile, the Browns with their OL and best RB duo in the league got swept by the Ravens.  

The Browns averaged 5.1 and 4.9 ypc in those 2 games combining for 276 yards. and gave up only 2 sacks.  The O-line did their job. 

 Benglas O-line gave up 7 sacks and 15.5 tackles for loss in their 2 games. They didn't allow the RBs, QB, or WR to do their jobs. 

Let's also not forget that the Browns and their WR lineup of ODell, Jarvis Landry, DPJ, and Kareem Hunt catching passes got swept by the Ravens.  

Do you really think that adding Chase to Higgins, Boyd and Mixon with half the quality of the Oline the Browns have is going to make a difference? 

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-23-2021, 12:57 PM)Burma Wrote: How much of this is a complete inability of the offensive line to facilitate a solid rushing attack and letting Baltimore scheme to stop the pass?  Look at the rushing stats for the 2 games against Baltimore last season.  There was no threat for the Bengals to move the ball on the ground at all. I can't see having 1 more WR is going to do anyting to change this. Are we expecting a rookie Chase to be able to beat All Pro press man specialist Marcus Peters, or the other All Pro CB, Marlon Humphrey? That is a lot to ask of a rookie WR. 

Oct 11th matchup:
Leading Rushers: 
Mixon 24 carries, 59 yards
Burrow 3 carries, 10 yards
Mike Thomas 1 carry 1 yard

Totals: 28 carries, 70 yards, 2.5 ypc (Baltimore 161 yards, 6.7 ypc)


Jan 3rd matchup:
Bengals rushing yards at halftime: 24

Totals:  19 carries, 147 yards, 7.7 ypc (Seriously, the garbage stats here are ridiculous)

The funny thing is that this is helping to make the argument FOR Chase....I will explain:

The Ravens and steelers didn't respect the passing attack enough to worry about getting beat over the top.  They have the coverage guys to blanket Boyd and Higgins and they could run blitz almost every down because of it.  They had a LOT of guys at or near the LOS and the Bengal's rushing attack suffered for it.  The Ravens used to get torched by Green when they would do that...no longer.  

It isn't just Chase that will beat the likes of Humphrey (who incidentally took Boyd in their games, which was very smart), but the fact that he would draw the coverage of their #1 CB and open things for the other two or three receivers in a pattern.

Remember, this push for Chase isn't in OPPOSITION to getting more help to the offensive line, but in COMBINATION.  They will likely spend their 2nd and 3rd or 4th round picks there as well.  

Chad didn't always have the biggest games against pitt, but when he was covered by two guys including their best CB, the other WRs ate well.  Right now, we don't have a #1 that can beat any CB.  I love Boyd and Higgins, but there are only a small handful of WRs that can beat any coverage at almost any time.  I think of Hopkins, Adams, and Tyreek Hill.  I put Chase in that company right now.  Yes, I think he is that good.  The strength of a Michael Thomas, the deep ball tracking of a Tyreek Hill, and the route running of a Devonta Adams.  I love what Chase can do and can't wait to see how he can unleash this offense against the likes of the steelers and ravens.  

[Burma]

(04-23-2021, 02:04 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: The funny thing is that this is helping to make the argument FOR Chase....I will explain:

The Ravens and steelers didn't respect the passing attack enough to worry about getting beat over the top.  They have the coverage guys to blanket Boyd and Higgins and they could run blitz almost every down because of it.  They had a LOT of guys at or near the LOS and the Bengal's rushing attack suffered for it.  The Ravens used to get torched by Green when they would do that...no longer.  

It isn't just Chase that will beat the likes of Humphrey (who incidentally took Boyd in their games, which was very smart), but the fact that he would draw the coverage of their #1 CB and open things for the other two or three receivers in a pattern.

Remember, this push for Chase isn't in OPPOSITION to getting more help to the offensive line, but in COMBINATION.  They will likely spend their 2nd and 3rd or 4th round picks there as well.  

Chad didn't always have the biggest games against pitt, but when he was covered by two guys including their best CB, the other WRs ate well.  Right now, we don't have a #1 that can beat any CB.  I love Boyd and Higgins, but there are only a small handful of WRs that can beat any coverage at almost any time.  I think of Hopkins, Adams, and Tyreek Hill.  I put Chase in that company right now.  Yes, I think he is that good.  The strength of a Michael Thomas, the deep ball tracking of a Tyreek Hill, and the route running of a Devonta Adams.  I love what Chase can do and can't wait to see how he can unleash this offense against the likes of the steelers and ravens.  

Solid reasoning, I can respect that.  That is a ton to expect of Chase though.  It's going to have be seeing it on the field at the Pro level before I would really buy in, for me.

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-23-2021, 02:11 PM)Burma Wrote: Solid reasoning, I can respect that.  That is a ton to expect of Chase though.  It's going to have be seeing it on the field at the Pro level before I would really buy in, for me.

Completely understand.  But remember, in college, he faced future first round picks and they were allowed to do a lot more past 5 yards than they can in the NFL.  I have high standards for Chase, because he has always risen to the top when asked to perform.  

[Au165]

One thing in this debate I have found interesting is people who will argue that Reiff is a one-year stopgap, but then turn around and say if we don't draft a tackle Burrow will get killed this season, which are two somewhat conflicting positions. If we are simply talking about protecting Joe Burrow THIS YEAR, then a guard we get in the 2nd probably can give you a similar quality of play as moving Sewell to guard for a year. You can argue Sewell makes the line better long term, but this idea we need Sewell this year to keep Burrow from getting killed isn't actually based on sound logic.

Now we can get into flexibility for injury and such but you can't really predict injuries. If we are talking simply about the ability to protect Burrow this year I don't think there is a difference really between Sewell out of position and a day 2 guard. Even looking out to next year, there is nothing saying we can't find another veteran tackle next year to take over for Reiff. The veteran tackle market for instance still has legit starting tackle options if we were in the market right now.

On the other hand, the issue with the day 2 receivers is they skew more to slot players. I think if we are looking at year 1 total team production, Chase and a day 2 guard offers more production THIS YEAR than Sewell and a day 2 WR.

[Murdock2420]

(04-23-2021, 03:48 PM)Au165 Wrote: One thing in this debate I have found interesting is people who will argue that Reiff is a one-year stopgap, but then turn around and say if we don't draft a tackle Burrow will get killed this season, which are two somewhat conflicting positions. If we are simply talking about protecting Joe Burrow THIS YEAR, then a guard we get in the 2nd probably can give you a similar quality of play as moving Sewell to guard for a year. You can argue Sewell makes the line better long term, but this idea we need Sewell this year to keep Burrow from getting killed isn't actually based on sound logic.

Now we can get into flexibility for injury and such but you can't really predict injuries. If we are talking simply about the ability to protect Burrow this year I don't think there is a difference really between Sewell out of position and a day 2 guard. Even looking out to next year, there is nothing saying we can't find another veteran tackle next year to take over for Reiff. The veteran tackle market for instance still has legit starting tackle options if we were in the market right now.

On the other hand, the issue with the day 2 receivers is they skew more to slot players. I think if we are looking at year 1 total team production, Chase and a day 2 guard offers more production THIS YEAR than Sewell and a day 2 WR.

People on both sides are twisting numbers and arguments to fit their narrative. At this point it has almost gotten to where people are more worried about being right then what is actually best for the team.

My personal favorite though is team Chase will dog the level of competition for Sewell, while turning around and calling Vera-Tucker the best guard in the draft.... same Conference...same competition level.

Both players will help the team long term sure... but this team isn't going to compete in 2021. I know I'll get grief for saying that, but Lou is still here and so is Taylor. So all of this arguing is really kind of for nothing.

[Burma]

(04-23-2021, 03:48 PM)Au165 Wrote: One thing in this debate I have found interesting is people who will argue that Reiff is a one-year stopgap, but then turn around and say if we don't draft a tackle Burrow will get killed this season, which are two somewhat conflicting positions. If we are simply talking about protecting Joe Burrow THIS YEAR, then a guard we get in the 2nd probably can give you a similar quality of play as moving Sewell to guard for a year. You can argue Sewell makes the line better long term, but this idea we need Sewell this year to keep Burrow from getting killed isn't actually based on sound logic.

Now we can get into flexibility for injury and such but you can't really predict injuries. If we are talking simply about the ability to protect Burrow this year I don't think there is a difference really between Sewell out of position and a day 2 guard. Even looking out to next year, there is nothing saying we can't find another veteran tackle next year to take over for Reiff. The veteran tackle market for instance still has legit starting tackle options if we were in the market right now.

On the other hand, the issue with the day 2 receivers is they skew more to slot players. I think if we are looking at year 1 total team production, Chase and a day 2 guard offers more production THIS YEAR than Sewell and a day 2 WR.

[Au165]

(04-23-2021, 04:05 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: People on both sides are twisting numbers and arguments to fit their narrative. At this point it has almost gotten to where people are more worried about being right then what is actually best for the team.

My personal favorite though is team Chase will dog the level of competition for Sewell, while turning around and calling Vera-Tucker the best guard in the draft.... same Conference...same competition level.

Both players will help the team long term sure... but this team isn't going to compete in 2021. I know I'll get grief for saying that, but Lou is still here and so is Taylor. So all of this arguing is really kind of for nothing.

I would also question the level of talent Sewell played, but I think that is compounded because of how few games he actually played. Even a larger sample size against the same level of competition would make me feel a bit better about the level. 

As for not competing in 2021? We will see, I think the defense will actually make a huge leap because there is a major schematic change happening if you read the tea leaves of the player acquisitions. If Burrow can pick up where he left off in terms of play when he went down I think the team can steal a couple more wins and at least hold interest down the stretch.

[*Synric*]

(04-23-2021, 03:48 PM)Au165 Wrote: One thing in this debate I have found interesting is people who will argue that Reiff is a one-year stopgap, but then turn around and say if we don't draft a tackle Burrow will get killed this season, which are two somewhat conflicting positions. If we are simply talking about protecting Joe Burrow THIS YEAR, then a guard we get in the 2nd probably can give you a similar quality of play as moving Sewell to guard for a year. You can argue Sewell makes the line better long term, but this idea we need Sewell this year to keep Burrow from getting killed isn't actually based on sound logic.

Now we can get into flexibility for injury and such but you can't really predict injuries. If we are talking simply about the ability to protect Burrow this year I don't think there is a difference really between Sewell out of position and a day 2 guard. Even looking out to next year, there is nothing saying we can't find another veteran tackle next year to take over for Reiff. The veteran tackle market for instance still has legit starting tackle options if we were in the market right now.

On the other hand, the issue with the day 2 receivers is they skew more to slot players. I think if we are looking at year 1 total team production, Chase and a day 2 guard offers more production THIS YEAR than Sewell and a day 2 WR.

Like I said about Riley Reiff in free agency Wyatt Davis makes a ton for sense at #38 or even a trace back. 


Wyatt Davis is a experienced starter at the Bengals biggest position of need RG. He is a prototypical guard prospect with great size, length, and athleticism. He also comes out of Ryan Days outside zone run game. His only real issue is recognizing games up front but he always wins his 1 on 1s in pass pro and is a mauler in the run game.

Wyatt Davis is a plug & play day 1 starter at RG.

[Burma]

(04-23-2021, 05:33 PM)Synric Wrote: Like I said about Riley Reiff in free agency Wyatt Davis makes a ton for sense at #38 or even a trace back. 


Wyatt Davis is a experienced starter at the Bengals biggest position of need RG. He is a prototypical guard prospect with great size, length, and athleticism. He also comes out of Ryan Days outside zone run game. His only real issue is recognizing games up front but he always wins his 1 on 1s in pass pro and is a mauler in the run game.

Wyatt Davis is a plug & play day 1 starter at RG.

interestingly Chad Reuter at nfl.com has Davis going in round 4 in his most recent mock.

https://www.nfl.com/news/seven-round-2021-nfl-mock-draft-round-4-cowboys-select-wr-amon-ra

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-23-2021, 05:33 PM)Synric Wrote: Like I said about Riley Reiff in free agency Wyatt Davis makes a ton for sense at #38 or even a trace back. 


Wyatt Davis is a experienced starter at the Bengals biggest position of need RG. He is a prototypical guard prospect with great size, length, and athleticism. He also comes out of Ryan Days outside zone run game. His only real issue is recognizing games up front but he always wins his 1 on 1s in pass pro and is a mauler in the run game.

Wyatt Davis is a plug & play day 1 starter at RG.

I was actually just watching this prospect profile on Davis, and it seems like he could be a good option for us. We just have to get over the OSU OL thing...lol

https://youtu.be/BOuEYpmtaac