Joey B talks to Collinsworth

[Sled21]

(04-23-2021, 10:24 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Here is the thing.  I would never fire a new head coach after just one year.  That would not be fair to anyone.

I also would not fire a new head coach after his second year just because he has not become a playoff contender AS LONG AS HE IS SHOWING IMPROVEMENT AND PROGRESS.


The loss of Boling, Glenn, Green, and first round pick Jonah Williams before the season even started destroyed any hope we had for a decent offense in Zac's first season.  But in 2020 we added the first overall pick from the 2020 draft, the first O-lineman taken in the 2019 draft, one of the best rookie WRs in the league, plus $145 million in free agent spending and we still just won 4 games.

Our coaches botched the benching of Andy Dalton and ran off one of the better DEs in the league from a defense that is desperate for talent.  They wasted an active roster spot for an entire season on Green.  Our best young defensive player (Bates) said there were communication problems with the defensive coaches in 2019.  Multiple other defensive players (Williams, Phillips) publicly questioned the coaching staff on social media.

The roster Zac inherited was not strong, but it was not near as bad as some people claim.  Atkins and Green were obviously on the decline, but according to PFF Andy Dalton had the best season of his career in 2018, and Dunlap has consistently produced at a high level except for the first half of 2020 when he had conflict with our inexperienced coaching staff.  There was some good young talent in Mixon, Boyd, Bates, Hubbard, Jackson, and Lawson.  Again, I am not saying it was a strong roster, but it was not a complete disaster.

When teams hire good coaches they may not make the playoffs in the second season (although some have) but they at least show major improvement by the second year.  We have not seen that with Taylor and his staff.

You conveniently neglected to mention the fact that the 2nd year was decimated by injuries. I get that all teams have injuries, but c'mon, last year we were trotting out 6th string guys on the D line and at corner.

[Sled21]

(04-23-2021, 09:40 AM)TJ528 Wrote: Here's my issue with it Sled is you have people and I'm all for giving Zac a chance this year, and if he doesnt win he's gone.  However, you have others who will say the guy needs 5 years.  It was a complete rebuild when he was hired.  

In the NFL you dont need 5 years to build a team to win.  Most GM's and coaches can do that in 2 years.  So to say a coach needs 4 or 5 years to get his roster where he needs it to win is BS.  

If Zac fails this year and I could careless if its because of injuries, or maybe Burrow comes back and he doesnt hit his stride until the last 4 games of the season and this team goes 5-12 because they won 3 of 4 games.  He still needs to go!

I'm probably one of Taylor's biggest supporters, and even I have never said he should get 5 years. 3 years is what I believe a HC deserves to show what he has. So this upcoming season is sink or swim as far as I'm concerned.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(04-22-2021, 04:06 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Different bad teams, different problems. Marvin had a good line, but took over an awful defense and had Kitna at QB. He had to identify the hidden gems like Housh and Rudi, both of which did nothing before Marv. They signed around 5 defensive starters that first year.

John Thornton. Duane Clemons. Tory James. Kevin Hardy. Rogers Beckett.

He brought in good coaches like Leslie Frazier and Hue Jackson.

Zac has littered his staff with poor resumes (at least he righted the wrong with Pollack). I don't know why we didn't sign anyone good that first year, but maybe he should've pushed harder for some players on the line. Instead, he defended our line publicly.

He's had (now) 3 offseasons to do what Marv accomplished right away...which was identify the issue and plug in better players. Merv's strength was always identifying talent. I havent seen that with Zac yet.

I get it, and agree, but my point is, this team, aside from some skill players, was likely worse than one Marvin got. Not only was the line worse, the defense was also as bad or worse. Remember, it was a record setting d in futility Marvin's last season as well.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(04-22-2021, 03:56 PM)TJ528 Wrote: okay so i'll throw my hat in here....so when you talk about the OL back then, when Marvin came to Cincy they drafted Steiny, Rich Brahm was played at guard and center and really didnt have a position and EVERYONE complained about Levi Jones at LT.  So when Marvin was hired the pieces may have been there but Marvin and that coaching staff are ones who assembled the pieces and put them where they needed to go.  

As I said in another post, i truly believe after the playoff loss in 2015 to the Steelers that Marvin just didn't put as much effort into the draft as he previously had.  He was mentally done.  He should've left or been let go after 2015, but he had 3 more season of letting the roster deteriorate. 

I truly believe, if not for the self scouting by Marvin and his coaching staff those teams would've NEVER had the talent they had.  I mean look at the talent we draft since 2015.  That says it for itself.  Last year we got a cant miss QB and the #33 pick, which should be pretty damn near cant miss.  The rest of the draft class we'll wait 3 years and see what we have.  

....weeellllll...Piano Man was already here, and so was the OC, Bratkowski (I think). He canned Bresnehan, and hired Frazier at DC. 

That said, thank goodness for Marvin, because without him, we're probably still in the abyss.

[fredtoast]

(04-23-2021, 01:39 PM)Sled21 Wrote: You conveniently neglected to mention the fact that the 2nd year was decimated by injuries. I get that all teams have injuries, but c'mon, last year we were trotting out 6th string guys on the D line and at corner.

We lost opening day to a bad Chargers team with an injury ravaged O-line.  Other than Waynes and Atkins  we were pretty healthy then.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(04-23-2021, 01:40 PM)Sled21 Wrote: I'm probably one of Taylor's biggest supporters, and even I have never said he should get 5 years. 3 years is what I believe a HC deserves to show what he has. So this upcoming season is sink or swim as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not necessarily a big supporter, but I agree with the rest.

[Sled21]

(04-23-2021, 01:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: We lost opening day to a bad Chargers team with an injury ravaged O-line.  Other than Waynes and Atkins  we were pretty healthy then.

You mean we trotted out there with very limited training camps, no pre-season, and a rookie QB and WR, and lost our first game? Who'da thunk it.

[*bfine32*]

A quick story for all that don't think a HC should get a 3rd year:

There was an old bull and a young bull standing on a hill.........

[fredtoast]

(04-23-2021, 04:22 PM)Sled21 Wrote: You mean we trotted out there with very limited training camps, no pre-season, and a rookie QB and WR, and lost our first game? Who'da thunk it.

Well the Chargers also had a limited training camp and no preseason, and I don't know what our rookie QB had to do with us giving up 160 rushing yards to a team with a crippled O-line.