2nd round trade up or back?

[yang]

Assuming Chase is the pick but this can go either way.

Would you rather move back up into the first to grab OL, or make back in the 2nd for multiple picks.

Lets say, give up the 3rd to move back up into the 1st
Add a 3rd to move back in the 2nd.

(Not sure of the trade value charts here, just on principle, multiple picks vs projected quality)

[Bilbo Saggins]

Depends on who you're getting. Trading up for say Cosmi, Ojulari, Vera-Tucker or someone like that would be worth it imo. Trading back and still landing say Creed Humphrey or Dickerson if they were the target might be a good idea if the board falls that way. 

[AtomicBlaze]

If we draft a receiver in the first round, I predict the entire draft is a bust. I would rather trade down to late in the first round and pickup up an extra first or early second, and draft the best OT and OG/C available at those positions potentially taking the top 3 offensive lineman available in round 1 and 2.

If we draft a receiver first we will probably end up reaching for offensive lineman in the 2nd since they will be desperate and teams will continuously jump before us because they know we will be desperate for offensive lineman and I doubt we get good value at that point. If we take a OT like Sewell we will control the draft and take better value since we will not be as desperate. I don't even see receiver as a need, I would just take one in the 4th and hope we get a steal like the Steelers do every year.

[TJHoushmandzadeh's Shiny Shoes]

(04-22-2021, 12:38 PM)AtomicBlaze Wrote: If we draft a receiver in the first round, I predict the entire draft is a bust.  I would rather trade down to late in the first round and pickup up an extra first or early second, and draft the best OT and OG/C available at those positions potentially taking the top 3 offensive lineman available in round 1 and 2.

If we draft a receiver first we will probably end up reaching for offensive lineman in the 2nd since they will be desperate and teams will continuously jump before us because they know we will be desperate for offensive lineman and I doubt we get good value at that point.  If we take a OT like Sewell we will control the draft and take better value since we will not be as desperate.  I don't even see receiver as a need, I would just take one in the 4th and hope we get a steal like the Steelers do every year.

Cheer up Eeyore. We pick 6th in the second round. In this O-lineman deep draft there are more O-linemen with a second round grade than there are picks before us in that round so 8 teams would have to continuously jump us, even though there is O-line talent in round 3 as well and teams will have other needs as well as O-line.

eg using the Athletic's consensus big board drawn from more than 50 big boards. 

Landon Dickerson (33)
Samuel Cosmi (38)
Alex Leatherwood (39)
Creed Humphrey (42)
Dillon Radunz (44)
Liam Eichenberg (47)
Jalen Mayfield (48)
Wyatt Davis (55)

Then third round targets where the Bengals pick 5th in the round and have pick 69 and fourth round targets with pick 111
Quinn Meinerz (62)
Jackson Carman (70)
Josh Myers (72)
Trey Smith (75)
Brady Christensen (87)
Spencer Brown (88)
Walker Little (92)
Aaron Banks (96)
James Hudson (99)
Ben Cleveland (101)
Deonte Brown (106)
Kendrick Green (108)
Stone Forsythe (119)
D'Ante Smith (126)



As for need for a WR, the Bengals used at least 3 WRs on over 80% of their offensive snaps. It's a de facto starter. Teams are also more likely to jump the Bengals for WR because in a deep draft of slot receivers there are only a few WRs who match what the Bengals obviously need from that position (ie a quick outside receiver who complements Boyd and Higgins) whereas any of 4 O-line spots could be upgraded.

[yang]

So if we draft Chase, would everyone be okay to trade next years #2 to move back up to the first to get Darrisaw or Jenkins?

If we draft Sewell would you do the same to trade back up to get T Marshall or Bateman?

[Murdock2420]

(04-22-2021, 01:46 PM)yang Wrote: So if we draft Chase, would everyone be okay to trade next years #2 to move back up to the first to get Darrisaw or Jenkins?    

If we draft Sewell would you do the same to  trade back up to get T Marshall or Bateman?

If we draft Sewell we wouldn't have to move off 38 to get Marshall or Toney or Dyami Brown.

This is literally the Billy Price screw up all over again.

We move, we lose Ragnow because of "deep OL class" and instead of getting the lock, we screw up and get a bust.

Get Sewell and accept that Toney, Marshall or Brown will be a perfect 3rd target for the offense. 

It's beyond simple... which is why we will screw it up.

[J24]

Always trade down!

[Burma]

(04-22-2021, 01:40 PM)TJHoushmandzadeh Wrote: Cheer up Eeyore. We pick 6th in the second round. In this O-lineman deep draft there are more O-linemen with a second round grade than there are picks before us in that round so 8 teams would have to continuously jump us, even though there is O-line talent in round 3 as well and teams will have other needs as well as O-line.

eg using the Athletic's consensus big board drawn from more than 50 big boards. 

Landon Dickerson (33)
Samuel Cosmi (38)
Alex Leatherwood (39)
Creed Humphrey (42)
Dillon Radunz (44)
Liam Eichenberg (47)
Jalen Mayfield (48)
Wyatt Davis (55)

Then third round targets where the Bengals pick 5th in the round and have pick 69 and fourth round targets with pick 111
Quinn Meinerz (62)
Jackson Carman (70)
Josh Myers (72)
Trey Smith (75)
Brady Christensen (87)
Spencer Brown (88)
Walker Little (92)
Aaron Banks (96)
James Hudson (99)
Ben Cleveland (101)
Deonte Brown (106)
Kendrick Green (108)
Stone Forsythe (119)
D'Ante Smith (126)



As for need for a WR, the Bengals used at least 3 WRs on over 80% of their offensive snaps. It's a de facto starter. Teams are also more likely to jump the Bengals for WR because in a deep draft of slot receivers there are only a few WRs who match what the Bengals obviously need from that position (ie a quick outside receiver who complements Boyd and Higgins) whereas any of 4 O-line spots could be upgraded.

This logic is just flat out baffling to me:
"it's a deep offensive line class" = skip getting the best of a great pool at a position of great need and go with the 2nd tier because we need our 3rd receiver to have the potential to become our #1 WR over our current potential #1 WR because our QB used to know him and I really get off when the scoreboard lights up. FML

[*Synric*]

(04-22-2021, 01:49 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: If we draft Sewell we wouldn't have to move off 38 to get Marshall or Toney or Dyami Brown.

This is literally the Billy Price screw up all over again.

We move, we lose Ragnow because of "deep OL class" and instead of getting the lock, we screw up and get a bust.

Get Sewell and accept that Toney, Marshall or Brown will be a perfect 3rd target for the offense. 

It's beyond simple... which is why we will screw it up.

In the Board Mock the Boundary receivers Bateman/Marshall were gone by #38. Kadarius Toney who was is more of a Y/Z (at least half of his snaps in the slot) went #37. I could have majorly reached for Dyami Brown but he wont go high second and is more of a low second high third round guy because he is a slight build, with build up speed, suspect hands, and not really a 3 level target you want on the boundary. I dont believe Brown will be a good fit for the route concepts the Bengals run he needs to be in a Air Coryell not really the West Coast.

[yang]

(04-22-2021, 01:49 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: If we draft Sewell we wouldn't have to move off 38 to get Marshall or Toney or Dyami Brown.

This is literally the Billy Price screw up all over again.

We move, we lose Ragnow because of "deep OL class" and instead of getting the lock, we screw up and get a bust.

Get Sewell and accept that Toney, Marshall or Brown will be a perfect 3rd target for the offense. 

It's beyond simple... which is why we will screw it up.

As Syric notes, Marshall will be gone.  Dyami is a 3rd rounder and there is zero chance the Bengals take Toney, a slot guy, who is outside of every Bengals WR draft parameter/ metrics.   So do you Move up, stay put or move back if this is the case?  

[Murdock2420]

(04-22-2021, 02:42 PM)yang Wrote: As Syric notes, Marshall will be gone.  Dyami is a 3rd rounder and there is zero chance the Bengals take Toney, a slot guy, who is outside of every Bengals WR draft parameter/ metrics.   So do you Move up, stay put or move back if this is the case?  

Brown isn't going to be there at round 3.

Ranks between 45 and 55 in almost all the big boards. So he is gone in round 2.

As for Marshall. If he goes, Bateman falls. You can look at draft tends going back years, 4 to 5 WRs will go top 35. That's it. 

[*ochocincos*]

(04-22-2021, 01:49 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: If we draft Sewell we wouldn't have to move off 38 to get Marshall or Toney or Dyami Brown.

This is literally the Billy Price screw up all over again.

We move, we lose Ragnow because of "deep OL class" and instead of getting the lock, we screw up and get a bust.

Get Sewell and accept that Toney, Marshall or Brown will be a perfect 3rd target for the offense. 

It's beyond simple... which is why we will screw it up.

There's a feeling by some that Marshall, Toney, and Bateman will all be gone by 38, and Dyami Brown would be a reach at 38.

So if the Bengals get Sewell and they can't get one of Marshall or Bateman, I'm in favor of trading back to get an extra 3rd.
There will be a a glut of talent in Rd 3, specifically IOL and DL. They can take Dyami Brown in the 2nd after trading back, and then have an extra 3rd Rd pick to put toward pass rush and/or OL.

[Murdock2420]

(04-22-2021, 02:26 PM)Synric Wrote: In the Board Mock the Boundary receivers Bateman/Marshall were gone by #38. Kadarius Toney who was is more of a Y/Z (at least half of his snaps in the slot) went #37. I could have majorly reached for Dyami Brown but he wont go high second and is more of a low second high third round guy because he is a slight build, with build up speed, suspect hands, and not really a 3 level target you want on the boundary. I dont believe Brown will be a good fit for the route concepts the Bengals run he needs to be in a Air Coryell not really the West Coast.

Well a board mock isn't real life... it's fans of one team trying to guess for 31 other teams to start with...but... more importantly

If you go Sewell and you don't get Marshall or Bateman or Toney and think it is too soon for Brown, that means a ton of defensive talent is there at 38 since the OL run will happen between 24 and 33 (in real life) and if all the WRs are gone, really good edge rushers and IDL guys will be pushed down. So you take one of them and get your WR in 3 or 4, like the kid from Iowa you like or Sage Surratt from Wake or Shi Smith from South Carolina. There is boundary WRs in every round of this draft that can be the 3rd target and get deep.

(04-22-2021, 02:59 PM)ochocincos Wrote: There's a feeling by some that Marshall, Toney, and Bateman will all be gone by 38, and Dyami Brown would be a reach at 38.

So if the Bengals get Sewell and they can't get one of Marshall or Bateman, I'm in favor of trading back to get an extra 3rd.
There will be a a glut of talent in Rd 3, specifically IOL and DL. They can take Dyami Brown in the 2nd after trading back, and then have an extra 3rd Rd pick to put toward pass rush and/or OL.

If they trade back and take him that's great. Hell I'd be okay trading back in one and in two, we need picks upon picks to fix this roster.

I stand by my statement though, that Brown is going to be one of, if not the best WR to come out of this draft and you won't have to spend a 1st to get him.

He actually has good hands (even though someone else said they are suspect they aren't watch the tape and read the reviews, his hands are not questioned), he gets great separation, he takes on defenders and fights for yards. The knock, he doesn't have a complete route tree because he wasn't asked to run one. If you have the natural ability, you can coach up routes. 

3 to 4 years from now, when you look back at the draft people are going to ask how he went after all these other WRs that will be underachieving or just out of the league.

[leonardfan40]

(04-22-2021, 01:49 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: If we draft Sewell we wouldn't have to move off 38 to get Marshall or Toney or Dyami Brown.

This is literally the Billy Price screw up all over again.

We move, we lose Ragnow because of "deep OL class" and instead of getting the lock, we screw up and get a bust.

Get Sewell and accept that Toney, Marshall or Brown will be a perfect 3rd target for the offense. 

It's beyond simple... which is why we will screw it up.

Marshall is most likely gone, Bateman too. Brown would be a reach and Toney may be there but isn’t what we need. If we grab Sewell and Marshall or Bateman somehow start to fall you know we’ll have a Ragnow situation there too. It works both ways.

At the end of the day Chase is a better prospect than Sewell. The bengals need WR and OL. Take the better player first (Chase) and then capitalize on the OL depth in round 2. Maybe even back to back in 2-3. We get the best players and value that way. Picking Sewell over Chase is a reach if both are available. Time someone finally said it. Don’t reach in the top 5

[*Synric*]

(04-22-2021, 03:09 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Well a board mock isn't real life... it's fans of one team trying to guess for 31 other teams to start with...but... more importantly

If you go Sewell and you don't get Marshall or Bateman or Toney and think it is too soon for Brown, that means a ton of defensive talent is there at 38 since the OL run will happen between 24 and 33 (in real life) and if all the WRs are gone, really good edge rushers and IDL guys will be pushed down. So you take one of them and get your WR in 3 or 4, like the kid from Iowa you like or Sage Surratt from Wake or Shi Smith from South Carolina. There is boundary WRs in every round of this draft that can be the 3rd target and get deep.



If they trade back and take him that's great. Hell I'd be okay trading back in one and in two, we need picks upon picks to fix this roster.

I stand by my statement though, that Brown is going to be one of, if not the best WR to come out of this draft and you won't have to spend a 1st to get him.

He actually has good hands (even though someone else said they are suspect they aren't watch the tape and read the reviews, his hands are not questioned), he gets great separation, he takes on defenders and fights for yards. The knock, he doesn't have a complete route tree because he wasn't asked to run one. If you have the natural ability, you can coach up routes. 

3 to 4 years from now, when you look back at the draft people are going to ask how he went after all these other WRs that will be underachieving or just out of the league.

This is Lance Zeirlein break down of Dyami Brown NFL.com.

Quote:Overview

Feast or famine deep-ball specialist with build-up speed that surprises cornerbacks who are tardy to open and run with him. Brown is a little thin, but has good length and excellent ball-tracking talent with the ability to follow the flight over his shoulder and bring it in for the score. He's a willing combatant when his quarterback allows him jump-ball opportunities. However, his lack of short-space foot quickness and agility allows coverage to hitch rides on his short and intermediate routes, which could limit his overall effectiveness as a pro. More importantly, he simply doesn't display trustworthy hands, which could cause quarterbacks and coordinators to lose faith if it's not corrected. Brown's talent to extend the defense has value, but he could have a limited ceiling as a scheme-dependent outside target.

No Mock Draft is perfect even the ones your saying Dyami Brown goes second round but the chances of a good offensive lineman being there at #38 or even #69 without reaching is better than a Boundary WR. If the Bengals feel they need a high quality WR then Ja'Marr Chase is the best bet to get one.

As for what I did in the mock I traded back from 5 to 9 and gained 40 and 152. I took Christian Darrisaw who I have as my OT2 and then Joe Tryon and Daviyon Nixon at #38 and #40.

[Murdock2420]

(04-22-2021, 03:21 PM)leonardfan40 Wrote: Marshall is most likely gone, Bateman too. Brown would be a reach and Toney may be there but isn’t what we need. If we grab Sewell and Marshall or Bateman somehow start to fall you know we’ll have a Ragnow situation there too. It works both ways.

At the end of the day Chase is a better prospect than Sewell. The bengals need WR and OL. Take the better player first (Chase) and then capitalize on the OL depth in round 2. Maybe even back to back in 2-3. We get the best players and value that way. Picking Sewell over Chase is a reach if both are available. Time someone finally said it. Don’t reach in the top 5

With the exception being of course that we have done well in the past few years with 2nd round WRs... see Boyd and Higgins.

Also, I would disagree that Chase is better then Sewell. You are comparing two different position groups which is already difficult, but in the end I trust my own eyes and my own reading and the opinion of guys who actually played the game versus the opinions of people who have zero NFL experience.

Pretty sure there isn't any former NFL players on this board... 

[Murdock2420]

(04-22-2021, 03:21 PM)Synric Wrote: This is Lance Zeirlein break down of Dyami Brown NFL.com.



No Mock Draft is perfect even the ones your saying Dyami Brown goes second round but the chances of a good offensive lineman being there at #38 or even #69 without reaching is better than a Boundary WR. If the Bengals feel they need a high quality WR then Ja'Marr Chase is the best bet to get one.

As for what I did in the mock I traded back from 5 to 9 and gained 40 and 152. I took Christian Darrisaw who I have as my OT2 and then Joe Tryon and Daviyon Nixon at #38 and #40.

And here is Pete Prisco's write up on Brown

Brown is one of those players. He is an explosive receiver who ran by a lot of defensive backs in college. He had 21 touchdown receptions in his career. But he's much more than just a speed guy. He is solid as a route runner and will only get better as he gets coached up in the NFL.


But the thing that is so attractive is his big-play ability. He averaged at least 20 yards per catch each of the past two seasons. Pop on his game tapes and you will see why. At 6-1, 190 pounds, he puts fear in defensive backs with his ability to run by them with ease. He was clocked at 4.4 at his pro day, but I think he plays faster than that.

Brown will be a star on the next level — maybe even better than one of the big-three receivers in this draft class. That's how much I was impressed by his tape.


https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news/2021-nfl-draft-better-than-team-20-guys-pete-prisco-likes-more-than-the-scouts-do/


There is 50 write ups for every single prospect and most of them see it differently....


I'm all in favor of trading back in one and in two. We need more then just one player to fix this team.

[Bengalholic]

If they take Chase, then one route could be to go with Eichenberg at 38...and then trade back up into the 2nd for Davis if he's still on the board around 49/50. Eichenberg could be plugged in at RT - as Daniel Jerimiah and SI's Draft Bible have mentioned - or even be tried at LG, while Davis would compete for the RG spot.

That scenario adds 2 linemen with day one starting capability, with both bringing scheme diversity and experience.

[*psychdoctor*]

Keep an eye on Mayfield in round 2. He fits the profile the Bengals usually risk in taking. He would start RG then kick to RT year after.
Also, Marshall may drop due to medicals.

[Burma]

(04-22-2021, 04:00 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: Keep an eye on Mayfield in round 2.  He fits the profile the Bengals usually risk in taking.  He would start RG then kick to RT year after.  
Also, Marshall may drop due to medicals.

Mayfield is interesting to me.  I'm a Michigan man and watched him his whole "career" at Michigan so would love to see him on the Bengals, but he is a bit of a mystery.  Some games he is a beast, and some he looks like he's in quick sand.  I can't get a true read on the guy.  I am more than willing to give him the benefit of the doubt due to the inabilites that the current staff at Michigan has in developing their players.  More than one player has seemed to regress in their time at UM and no one ever really seems to take that next step in their development.