Anybody want to.discuss the current state of the LBers?

[Dr.Z]

(04-26-2021, 12:34 AM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Thanks bro, thought he played great from what I saw. Give him more snaps is my call.

Was listening to Duke Tobin being interviewed on a podcast, and when asked about the linebackers, he seemed to imply that the organization has pretty high hopes for Wilson.   He was the one guy that he seemed to mention the most.   Also, I guess I'm not as quick to throw dirt on Bailey considering the injury, rust, being a rookie etc.  I liked the pick when we made it and still do at this point.  

[*Synric*]

(04-26-2021, 10:44 AM)Au165 Wrote: It's complex because people often misassign what is and isn't a linebacker's responsibility on a given play. Linebackers have specific assignments in the run game, as do safeties, on each play and most fans have no clue how that works so they see a guy run by a linebacker and assume it was his fault but it very well could have been someone else's and he had to control his gap for a potential cutback. I will disagree though, there is not enough blame put on the d line when it comes to run defense by most fans. Often times fans look at the D line as basically only being pass rushers but they play an important role in holding a gap and keeping the linebackers clean to fill. Additionally, the outside zone has made playing linebacker tough because you have to move with your assignment and if you overrun it, or a lineman gets washed out, the back puts his foot in the ground and they are gone. 

The run fits were a disaster in 2020 but it was to be expected with how much the defense personel changed over that offseason then no offseason workouts. 

It started to tighten up as the year went on but the beat up interior defensive line hurt the Linebackers alot.

[fredtoast]

(04-26-2021, 01:32 PM)SadFaceBengal15 Wrote: Who’s lemarcus Bailey?

So you don't speak French?

That is "the Markus Bailey"

[GreenCornBengal]

(04-26-2021, 11:14 AM)Au165 Wrote: There was a funny clip this year where a journalist blamed ADG for blowing a backside run assignment on twitter during the game and he tweeted immediately after that wasn't his responsibility, he didn't say who but from the play I saw I think I remember it actually being the safeties job to fill. Run fits are tough, and one of the things play action does that people often don't talk about is it gets defenders guessing run or pass and so you see D linemen jump out of their run fit trying to get a pass rush only to get creased because they got washed out of their gap guessing pass.

I believe that was Pratt

[Au165]

(04-26-2021, 02:27 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: I believe that was Pratt

Ahh, that could be, I just remembered the exchange and thought it was pretty funny. 

[GreenCornBengal]

(04-26-2021, 02:28 PM)Au165 Wrote: Ahh, that could be, I just remembered the exchange and thought it was pretty funny. 

Yep, it makes you wonder how much PFF and other analytical sites get completely wrong. They don’t know the assignments and grade players with 0 knowledge of what they were told to do.

[bengals1969]

(04-25-2021, 09:10 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: I'm worried about that too. That's honestly what would worry me most about drafting Chase. If we get to the 2nd and there's a couple of highly rated DE and we have to reach down the board a little for an OL can we pass the DE up? We need someone who can come in and give Hubbard and Hendrickson a breather and also possible start in case of injury. Also hopefully we can still manage to sign Kerrigan or someone equivalent after the draft.

They might reach in round 1 instead of your scenario in round 2. They might reach multiple times. My ideal is they go Pitts or Chase @ Nbr 5.
Then Cosmi or Humphrey at 38, then Trey Smith or Walker Little at 71. That’s an unbalanced draft but who says you can’t do that? With this they better protect Burrow and if it’s Pitts, my favorite, he helps on the line for run blocking as well as short passing when Burrow is out of time.

[BengalsBong]

Let the young guys play. We went with two LB because the coach did not think we had 3 decent LB on the team. Hopefully he think we have 3 good LB now and will go back to a 4-3 base most of the time. I think the 4-3 would help the young LB not having as much real estate to cover and developing since we will have an extra LB on the field getting exp. Think Pratt would be much better playing MLB.

[Au165]

(04-26-2021, 03:03 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Yep, it makes you wonder how much PFF and other analytical sites get completely wrong. They don’t know the assignments and grade players with 0 knowledge of what they were told to do.

See there is a difference between a journalist watching a play and someone who knows the game doing it. Run fits aren't 100% universal but they follow basic rules based on formation and alignment, so a person who understands the X's and O's can say with a pretty good amount of certainty what should happen. Will they be 100% right? Nah, but they should be pretty good at it especially when they can watch all the snaps and see how they handle the situation at different times to compare. 

[Essex Johnson]

(04-26-2021, 12:12 AM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: This. We are young, we are strong lol

But we are better. Logan and ADG and even Markus Bailey were great picks IMO. Logan Wilson played very good as a rookie
and even better than I thought he would. He has great instincts and wasn't blown away by the speed of the NFL game like ADG
was. Bailey was coming off of some bad injuries. 

Didn't Wilson have at least 2 picks last season?

Saw him also make some nice tackles for loss.

Bailey did little know how well he will be.. ADG was subpar as a rookie.. Logan was good for a rookie. none made any all rookie team

[*ochocincos*]

(04-26-2021, 03:34 PM)Au165 Wrote: See there is a difference between a journalist watching a play and someone who knows the game doing it. Run fits aren't 100% universal but they follow basic rules based on formation and alignment, so a person who understands the X's and O's can say with a pretty good amount of certainty what should happen. Will they be 100% right? Nah, but they should be pretty good at it especially when they can watch all the snaps and see how they handle the situation at different times to compare. 

Or most fans.
Most fans will be quick to discredit PFF because "my eyes tell me different."
However, those eyes are likely not focused on watching every single snaps of a particular player.
Also, that fan very likely has less experience than PFF at analyzing performance, so I wouldn't even necessarily trust their eyes even if they did watch every snap.

[Au165]

(04-26-2021, 03:44 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Or most fans.
Most fans will be quick to discredit PFF because "my eyes tell me different."
However, those eyes are likely not focused on watching every single snaps of a particular player.
Also, that fan very likely has less experience than PFF at analyzing performance, so I wouldn't even necessarily trust their eyes even if they did watch every snap.

The first thing you do is ask someone to explain various zone matching concepts based on offensive alignment, when their eyes glaze over that is when you know their eyes aren't worth trusting. 

[PDub80]

LB is the 3rd most impactful line of defense. Literally the LEAST most important according to PFF analytics. To dump high end resources into that spot makes little sense compared to D line & Secondary.

In a traditional 3-4 defense, sure, they matter a lot because they are moving pieces within that defensive structure, but the Bengals run hybrid defensive schemes. I'm not worried about LB at all. I like that they have invested in 4 guys with relatively high and mid round picks. Baily is the one I am looking at for an impactful role coming up. he was a projected 2nd rounder before he was injured in 2019.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(04-26-2021, 02:28 PM)Au165 Wrote: Ahh, that could be, I just remembered the exchange and thought it was pretty funny. 

It was Pratt and it was Ben Baby who wrote it lol.

[Essex Johnson]

(04-26-2021, 03:54 PM)PDub80 Wrote: LB is the 3rd most impactful line of defense. Literally the LEAST most important according to PFF analytics. To dump high end resources into that spot makes little sense compared to D line & Secondary.

In a traditional 3-4 defense, sure, they matter a lot because they are moving pieces within that defensive structure, but the Bengals run hybrid defensive schemes. I'm not worried about LB at all. I like that they have invested in 4 guys with relatively high and mid round picks. Baily is the one I am looking at for an impactful role coming up. he was a projected 2nd rounder before he was injured in 2019.

Well Steelers and Ravens have feasted on us with LBS.. they have been a core of their Defense over the past 10 years.. Also TB had excellent LB play that lead to a super bowl.  Finally i am not surprised that our defense started slipping as our LB play went south to worst in league.. Finally with increase in QBs in play action and RPOs LBs are being exposed and a solid core is needed

[JaggedJimmyJay]

I think the declining importance of linebackers maps in parallel to the declining number of linebackers. Teams trot out 5 or 6 DBs more than ever before, and it's nearly always the LB group that covers the loss. The Bengals themselves might as well call their base defense the nickel.

Still, they're important in that any position group is important. I think the Bengals could stand to draft one more linebacker at least in the round 3-5 range, either for depth or to cover when one of our young players inevitably doesn't work out. I don't have high hopes for Bailey, and Davis-Gaither looked a bit shaky too. Pratt might be flatly average and Wilson has a lot of potential, but strengthening the depth is still necessary.

[SadFaceBengal15]

(04-25-2021, 11:34 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Seems we have overlooked LBS too long.. sure feels our defense started to fall off as our LBS got bad... maybe we can follow TB lead as their LBs should helped lead the way to dominate in playoffs and both the Ravens and Steelers have continued to excel with a good LB crew and inflict punishment on us

This. Our defense went downhill in a hurry with momentum the minute our linebacker went from solid thumpers to vomit.

[Essex Johnson]

(04-26-2021, 09:28 PM)SadFaceBengal15 Wrote: This.  Our defense went downhill in a hurry with momentum the minute our linebacker went from solid thumpers to vomit.

i tend to agree LB play has been a major issue that you can't just ignore has not had an impact on stopping the run.. i bet we might be in top 1-3 teams over past 5 years against the run

[PDub80]

(04-26-2021, 06:56 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Well Steelers and Ravens have feasted on us with LBS.. they have been a core of their Defense over the past 10 years.. Also TB had excellent LB play that lead to a super bowl.  Finally i am not surprised that our defense started slipping as our LB play went south to worst in league.. Finally with increase in QBs in play action and RPOs  LBs are being exposed and a solid core is needed

Ravens & Steelers are 3-4 teams so their LBs are going to be much more impactful. Where as the Bengals play more nickel and have 2 LBs a lot of the time.

I agree that production from that spot is not wowing anyone, but they are all really young. Personally, I think 3 seasons is a good number to wait to before becoming concerned with development.

[JaggedJimmyJay]

(04-26-2021, 10:07 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: i tend to agree LB play has been a major issue that you can't just ignore has not had an impact on stopping the run.. i bet we might be in top 1-3 teams over past 5 years against the run

Yards allowed per game:

2020 - 148.0, ranked 29th

2019 - 148.9, ranked 32nd

2018 - 137.8, ranked 29th

2017 - 127.9, ranked 30th

2016 - 113.3, ranked 21st

I don't have the yards per carry numbers off-hand, but I can't imagine it's much better.