Jackson Carman At Bottom Of Depth Chart

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(07-31-2021, 12:48 PM)GodFather Wrote: Sewell has NOTHING to do with this discussion. I think Reiff was a good pickup. I also think trading down in the second because we passed on Sewell for Chase(which Im fine with) meant address this issue in second round with best available lineman. There were plenty and we chose to trade down and eventually take Jackson. I think it was a mistake for an offensive line that performed so badly in 2020 to do. We should've been more aggressive in FA with the line too, but again another topic. 

I don't think what Im saying is anything but common sense.

If your car engine has a ton of serious work that needs to be done are you going to get new tires instead? Even though the tires need replacing the car engine has more issues that need your addressing? Thats the front office in a nutshell...

Pollock is so much better than Turner but he cant polish a turd and thats what the OL was in 2020, pure shit.

Sorry if my original post was a little mean brother. Seems like you took a lot of crap for your OP. But we are upgraded at the 
starting positions from 2020. My biggest problem is depth as behind the starters we have guys like Jordan and Prince. Even if 
for some odd reason Carman doesn't start at RG game 1 he is great depth and it just means the vets beat him out. 

It was XSF's first season with us and he was under Turner who was a shit OL coach. Spain came in late in the season and had
to learn a new system and the Line got much better as a whole once he got here. Don't give me PFF grades. But this line of...

LT- Jonah Williams (2nd year hoping to stay healthy after having a promising first year) D'Ante Smith
LG - Quinton Spain/XSF/Jordan
C - Trey Hopkins/Trey Hill/Billy Price
RG - Jackson Carman/XSF/Jordan
RT - Riley Reiff/Jackson Carman

Is a lot better than last years. It is all preference and we will see how Pollack, not Pollock the fish coaches over Turner.

[*ochocincos*]

(07-31-2021, 12:48 PM)GodFather Wrote: Sewell has NOTHING to do with this discussion. I think Reiff was a good pickup. I also think trading down in the second because we passed on Sewell for Chase(which Im fine with) meant address this issue in second round with best available lineman. There were plenty and we chose to trade down and eventually take Jackson. I think it was a mistake for an offensive line that performed so badly in 2020 to do. We should've been more aggressive in FA with the line too, but again another topic. 

I don't think what Im saying is anything but common sense.

If your car engine has a ton of serious work that needs to be done are you going to get new tires instead? Even though the tires need replacing the car engine has more issues that need your addressing? Thats the front office in a nutshell...

Pollock is so much better than Turner but he cant polish a turd and thats what the OL was in 2020, pure shit.

In terms of pass protection, the Bengals had two good starters in 2020 - Jonah Williams and Trey Hopkins.
XSF has also been a good pass protector the past two years (197 pass blocking snaps in DAL, 155 in CIN), albeit not a full-time starter.

So they had 2-3 good pass protectors last year.

This year, they replaced Hart (a bad pass protector) with Reiff (a good pass protector).

That's 3-4 good pass protectors, potentially up to 5 if Spain gets back to his TEN form and/or Carman getting some snaps and playing well.

I think they're more likely to struggle in run protection, as most of the OL isn't very good in that area.
They should be league average at least in pass protection though...unless/until they have to resort to backups.

[Hammerstripes]

Color me surprised that a rookie OL that is coming off a back injury and switching to position he's never played is last on the depth chart.

[*Synric*]

(07-30-2021, 11:48 PM)GodFather Wrote: ACTUALLY they said it was a common things coaches did to rookies and THEN made these comments alluding it was more than that? 

This is their job(Dehner and Morrison) and my take is they see alot and hear alot, but have to be careful what they say because they don't want to burn bridges with players and front office. It wasn't in a positive light at all...

The only factual thing Paul and Jay said about Carman was he was at the end of the postion rep line with Gunnar Vogel. The rest was just them listing possible reasons why...

One reason they left out and makes the most sense is that Jackson Carman was listed on their website at 317lbs in the spring. A weigh in and conditioning test the day before he is now back up to 330lbs. 

Knowing he wasnt ready from the spring might put him behind Spain and XSF but coaches realize he had a lot to learn so he would most likely still be at the front of the rotation... Now a heavy weigh in when that was a pre-draft knock and a poor conditioning test would piss the coaches off enough to say "end of the line fat boy".

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-31-2021, 11:04 AM)GodFather Wrote: I will answer that easily, because what we had last year was garbage and couldn't protect Joe Burrow to begin with. If we had a good established line your point would be valid.

The point this offseason was to fix this horrendous offensive line not put a potential player behind the existing line. 

Where the F'k is the common sense in that? This isnt rocket science here..

You know what else isn't rocket science? 

Knowing the line is different this year and you don't know how they're going to perform. 

Williams / Spain / Hopkins / XSF / Reiff
Willimas / Spain-XSF / Hopkins / Carman / Reiff

Without playing a single down, you don't know that they're not going to be good. 

[GodFather]

(07-31-2021, 01:29 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Sorry if my original post was a little mean brother. Seems like you took a lot of crap for your OP. But we are upgraded at the 
starting positions from 2020. My biggest problem is depth as behind the starters we have guys like Jordan and Prince. Even if 
for some odd reason Carman doesn't start at RG game 1 he is great depth and it just means the vets beat him out. 

It was XSF's first season with us and he was under Turner who was a shit OL coach. Spain came in late in the season and had
to learn a new system and the Line got much better as a whole once he got here. Don't give me PFF grades. But this line of...

LT- Jonah Williams (2nd year hoping to stay healthy after having a promising first year) D'Ante Smith
LG - Quinton Spain/XSF/Jordan
C - Trey Hopkins/Trey Hill/Billy Price
RG - Jackson Carman/XSF/Jordan
RT - Riley Reiff/Jackson Carman

Is a lot better than last years. It is all preference and we will see how Pollack, not Pollock the fish coaches over Turner.

Your fine buddy. I didn’t take it as mean at all. My whole point of the thread was sharing thoughts from pro cincy beat writers (add on Locked On Bengals guys too) that were reporting this and shared it. Simple as that. I also think if this offensive line comes out and whiffs again this year we could have another injured QB and wasted year from Burrows rookie deal because the offensive line wasn’t addressed properly. But time will tell on that and obviously hope that is NOT the case.

But if your only answer in the draft this off-season was Jackson and he doesn’t start? It’s a bad look and I’m sure Burrow will be rushing and taking shots yet another season because I don’t have faith in last years line whatsoever.

I like Williams but he can’t stay healthy for an entire season and Hopkins who is coming off a big injury. So there’s that in addition to the sub par playing from those other guys.

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-31-2021, 12:06 PM)2MinutesHate Wrote: If you would've told me in back in April that Spain and XSF were going to be the 2021 starters, I probably would've cringed a bit.
I think what some of us are saying is that if Carman doesn't start this season, it will be viewed as a disappointment, not because it's a knock on the rookie, but because he gives us our best chance at an upgrade at this point.  However, I don't think it's a realistic expectation for Carman to start at either guard spot Week 1.

Most other options at G have dried up now so it's too late barring a trade or a DeCastro miracle.  I wish they would've played it safer and been more proactive in FA.

What worries me is that Mike Brown has emerged from his crypt saying, "Our offensive line is going to surprise people."  
Naturally, anything that comes out of that man's mouth I tend to resist.

Spain and XSF are, at worst, average when healthy. They're actually better than that for what the Bengals need them to do. I wouldn't be concerned at all if the season started tomorrow and they were healthy and starting. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(07-31-2021, 02:37 PM)GodFather Wrote: Your fine buddy. I didn’t take it as mean at all. My whole point of the thread was sharing thoughts from pro cincy beat writers (add on Locked On Bengals guys too) that were reporting this and shared it. Simple as that. I also think if this offensive line comes out and whiffs again this year we could have another injured QB and wasted year from Burrows rookie deal because the offensive line wasn’t addressed properly. But time will tell on that and obviously hope that is NOT the case.

But if your only answer in the draft this off-season was Jackson and he doesn’t start? It’s a bad look and I’m sure Burrow will be rushing and taking shots yet another season because I don’t have faith in last years line whatsoever.

I like Williams but he can’t stay healthy for an entire season and Hopkins who is coming off a big injury. So there’s that in addition to the sub par playing from those other guys.

I have no faith in last year's OL either. This is a different OL, 3 different starters then last year in Reiff, Spain/XSF and potentially 
Jackson Carman. Carman came in a bit overweight and they are punishing is what I am hearing making him work. Good move from
Pollack, I still think Carman ends up being the starting RG but if he is beat out by XSF or Spain or whoever I don't really care.

Just want the best 5 OL out there as we all should. Carman is still great depth. Who knows if even Sewell would of won a starting 
spot? We don't know, Sewell would of been playing Guard here just the same as Carman.

It is preference, that is all. Liked Carman before the Draft in the 2nd round. To trade back and still get him while adding D'Ante 
Smith and Tyler Shelvin was the cherry on top IMO.

We had a great OL when Carson went down lets not forget. Weird shit happens. We are just jaded from our history.

Last year was stupid though, we all saw it coming, I blame Turner more than anyone, thank God he is gone.

[*rfaulk34*]

(07-31-2021, 01:32 PM)ochocincos Wrote: In terms of pass protection, the Bengals had two good starters in 2020 - Jonah Williams and Trey Hopkins.
XSF has also been a good pass protector the past two years (197 pass blocking snaps in DAL, 155 in CIN), albeit not a full-time starter.

So they had 2-3 good pass protectors last year.

This year, they replaced Hart (a bad pass protector) with Reiff (a good pass protector).

That's 3-4 good pass protectors, potentially up to 5 if Spain gets back to his TEN form and/or Carman getting some snaps and playing well.

I think they're more likely to struggle in run protection, as most of the OL isn't very good in that area.
They should be league average at least in pass protection though...unless/until they have to resort to backups.

Last 3 games of the year, XSF gave up a goose egg in pressures. On the year, 5 pressures (including 1 sack) on 155 pass block attempts. That's a pressure every 31 snaps. 

[Joelist]

(07-31-2021, 02:55 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Last 3 games of the year, XSF gave up a goose egg in pressures. On the year, 5 pressures (including 1 sack) on 155 pass block attempts. That's a pressure every 31 snaps. 

Yep! In fact in the last 4 games (when we had Spain and XSF at the Guard spots) we yielded 2 sacks total. Also only 11 pressures. It was a painful lesson that Jordan and Redmond should never have been out there and the team should never have been in the position of having to rely on them. 

[Frank Booth]

When will people start to notice the trend that players tend to play their best games towards the end of the season?

Every single year.

On bad teams, if your best games of the season occur during weeks 14-17, I do not care

[Dr.Z]

(07-30-2021, 12:29 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Man, I like my burgers with SOMETHING on them...

This one is made out of soy or somethin'.

Maybe rat.

Lol Me too my friend.

[GodFather]

(07-31-2021, 02:50 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Just want the best 5 OL out there as we all should. 

Agree, but here's a question (unrelated to my original post) This is football, there will be injuries and when one or more of those guys goes down (and it will happen) who is there to backup? Price, Jordan, etc. 

And there we are back where we were last year. 

This front office did not do enough this offseason. We got two guys(Reiff, Carman) to address a major problem. Hopkins is coming off an ACL tear and Williams has health issues and never made it through a season. You really feel good that the Bengals did enough to protect the best thing to come to Cincinnati in a very very long time with Joe Burrow?

I certainly do not. 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(07-31-2021, 03:29 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: When will people start to notice the trend that players tend to play their best games towards the end of the season?

Every single year.

On bad teams, if your best games of the season occur during weeks 14-17, I do not care

Well, considering XSF only played the first game and then a handful at the end of the season its all we have to go off. Hence rfaulk pointing it out as relevant.

[Murdock2420]

(07-31-2021, 04:08 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Well, considering XSF only played the first game and then a handful at the end of the season its all we have to go off. Hence rfaulk pointing it out as relevant.

Problem with XSF is this is becoming a trend for him.

2017 was his last full season, every year since he has missed at least half a season due to an injury.

That is certainly cause for concern. 

Guys don't normally get more durable as the years go by.... see A.J. Green for a perfect example.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(07-31-2021, 04:12 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Problem with XSF is this is becoming a trend for him.

2017 was his last full season, every year since he has missed at least half a season due to an injury.

That is certainly cause for concern. 

Guys don't normally get more durable as the years go by.... see A.J. Green for a perfect example.

It’s definitely a bit of a concern. The only guys that have shown to be somewhat durable are Reiff and Spain. But hopefully Carman will win that RG spot anyway and it won’t matter. XSF is pretty good if he’s just for depth.

[Murdock2420]

(07-31-2021, 04:31 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: It’s definitely a bit of a concern. The only guys that have shown to be somewhat durable are Reiff and Spain. But hopefully Carman will win that RG spot anyway and it won’t matter. XSF is pretty good if he’s just for depth.

I think Carman will win a guard spot, it is a much better place for him in the NFL. I've seen some people talk about him at RT eventually but I really think that would be a mistake. I really think he's going to be a good guard for several years. 

I agree XSF is a good guy for depth, but he has to stay healthy for that too. I just really wish we could get back to the early to mid 2000 line with 5 guys you could count on for 16 games and who played through injury. The revolving door stuff isn't good for anyone.

[wanga]

O line still a huge area of concern for sure but they have improved it, potentially, they could all have shit years or get injured and we’re back to square one of course, but they need to keep doing it next year as well with upgrades.
I feel a hell of a lot better this preseason about it than last.

[*Nately120*]

This is a non-issue...unless Carman is like John Ross and expecting him to earn his playing time ruins his confidence and makes him a total bust.

[fredtoast]

Andrew Whitworth was also a second round pick projected to play OG.

He did not win a starting job and only got his chance a few games into the season when Levi Jones was injured,