Covid punishments....

[*Nately120*]

(08-30-2021, 04:43 PM)bengaloo Wrote: I know a lot of doctors who completely disagree with what he is saying. And here's the thing, they dont know for sure either, which is kind of my point. So just because someone is a doctor or nurse doesnt mean they are magical and can read the future or know everything there is to know about all things covid related or anything for that matter. Hence why I keep posting counter points to the popular narrative with real data to back it up, telling people we would be best served to keep an open mind. Pfizer's CEO went on CNBC and admitted the vaccine is only 39% effective against delta. Remember, 251,000 people per year die as a result of medical mishap carried out by doctors or nurses. They are not super human and I will not treat them as such. Time will tell about all of this stuff with vaccines, covid, death rates, etc. It's all still in the middle of unfolding, ya know? Which is why I think its a bit too early for the NFL to make such harsh punishments that are vaccine and mask related, back to the threads point. The science behind all of it is completely unsettled at this point. 

I'm not sure time will tell.  When the plague hit Europe people were talking about god being mad and certain unpopular races being behind the thing...here we are hundreds of years later and the same stuff is being said.  

Science is always unsettled, that's why it's science.  Gravity is still part theory and part law.  Personally, my background is in social psychology, so seeing how people react to covid is my cup of tea.


EDIT - I didn't mean to equate your stance with the ultra crazy arguments, FYI.  Just the idea that we're going to find out "eventually" since history lacks repeatability and people will never truly agree on this, no matter how much time passes.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-30-2021, 04:29 PM)bengaloo Wrote: I respect your opinion, but I very much disagree with your certainty about all this. Truth is, you have no idea just like the rest of us. You dont know if natural immunity is better than the vaccines. Evidence is beginning to suggest it and more and more people are reporting it all the time and as human beings we would be best served to keep an open mind in times like this. It is all still unfolding, so none of us know how it will turn out in the end, but right now, the popular narrative is once again starting to lose its steam as more raw data comes out proving it wrong and its only just beginning.   

(08-30-2021, 04:43 PM)bengaloo Wrote: I know a lot of doctors who completely disagree with what he is saying. And here's the thing, they dont know for sure either, which is kind of my point. So just because someone is a doctor or nurse doesnt mean they are magical and can read the future or know everything there is to know about all things covid related or anything for that matter. Hence why I keep posting counter points to the popular narrative with real data to back it up, telling people we would be best served to keep an open mind. Pfizer's CEO went on CNBC and admitted the vaccine is only 39% effective against delta. Remember, 251,000 people per year die as a result of medical mishap carried out by doctors or nurses. They are not super human and I will not treat them as such. Time will tell about all of this stuff with vaccines, covid, death rates, etc. It's all still in the middle of unfolding, ya know? Which is why I think its a bit too early for the NFL to make such harsh punishments that are vaccine and mask related, back to the threads point. The science behind all of it is completely unsettled at this point. 

The history of vaccines date back over a thousand years ago to China. The science of whether vaccines prevent vaccine preventable disease is completely settled no matter how much doubt you try to create. Look up the epidemiology on any vaccine preventable disease before and after introduction of the appropriate vaccine and the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of their effectiveness.

I’m sure you believe you’re posting data to back up your points, but only because you don’t understand what you’re posting. Or you do understand, but you’re pretending like you don’t. In which case, you’re misinformation becomes disinformation. And your data undermines your own argument.

You’ve argued that “natural” immunity to Covid acquired by having Covid is superior to acquired immunity to Covid by vaccination. However, the type of acquired immunity you get from getting the disease ONLY HAPPENS AFTER YOU GET THE DISEASE.

So what is the effectiveness of that kind of acquired immunity against getting Covid the FIRST time? ZERO. Because you don’t have that type of immunity until AFTER you have the disease. Therefore, that type of immunity DOES NOT EXIST versus your FIRST Covid infection. It would only help against your SECOND and subsequent exposures.

The efficacy of the Pfizer vaccine versus the delta strain was noted as 88% during two studies in the UK versus the data coming from Israel for reasons I’ve already explained. But, it seems like antibody levels begin to wane around 6-8 months after the two shot schedule which is the basis for the proposed boosters.

But, let’s assume the 39% efficacy rate of the Pfizer vaccine at preventing your first Covid infection is completely accurate. What is the efficacy of “natural” acquired immunity after having Covid for the first time at preventing your first case of Covid? ZERO! Because you don’t get that type of immunity until after you get Covid AND SOMETHING THAT DOESN”T YET EXIST CANNOT PREVENT DISEASE BECAUSE IT DOESN”T YET EXIST!

And 39% is ALWAYS greater than 0% when the reason you have a 0% efficacy rating is because it’s based upon something that doesn’t yet exist.

So when you compare the type of “natural” acquired immunity to a second case of Covid due to the delta strain compared to the type of acquired immunity you get from Covid and a vaccine to prevent a second case of Covid due to the delta strain YOU’RE OWN SOURCE INDICATES HAVING PREVIOUSLY HAD COVID AND THEN GETTING VACCINATED IS SUPERIOR TO JUST HAVING HAD COVID PREVIOUSLY!

This means the data you posted completely contradicts your statements.

Edit: name one infectious disease which has gotten worse due to vaccinations because I’m unaware of any and would honestly like to know if there are?

[MTBengalsFan]

(08-30-2021, 04:43 PM)bengaloo Wrote: I know a lot of doctors who completely disagree with what he is saying. And here's the thing, they dont know for sure either, which is kind of my point. So just because someone is a doctor or nurse doesnt mean they are magical and can read the future or know everything there is to know about all things covid related or anything for that matter. Hence why I keep posting counter points to the popular narrative with real data to back it up, telling people we would be best served to keep an open mind. Pfizer's CEO went on CNBC and admitted the vaccine is only 39% effective against delta. Remember, 251,000 people per year die as a result of medical mishap carried out by doctors or nurses. They are not super human and I will not treat them as such. Time will tell about all of this stuff with vaccines, covid, death rates, etc. It's all still in the middle of unfolding, ya know? Which is why I think its a bit too early for the NFL to make such harsh punishments that are vaccine and mask related, back to the threads point. The science behind all of it is completely unsettled at this point. 

I've watched that entire 23-minute interview, and he says nothing at all like that. Hell, you can find the transcript and search for the word "percent" and see no such claim is made. I have no idea where you got this talking point, but it's false. As someone who is both immunocompromised and a scientist, I consume as much of the science on COVID-19 as I can. False talking points hurt the conversation.

[bengaloo]

(08-31-2021, 11:17 AM)MTBengalsFan Wrote: I've watched that entire 23-minute interview, and he says nothing at all like that. Hell, you can find the transcript and search for the word "percent" and see no such claim is made. I have no idea where you got this talking point, but it's false. As someone who is both immunocompromised and a scientist, I consume as much of the science on COVID-19 as I can. False talking points hurt the conversation.

He is basing it on the government data collected from a country who has a large vaccinated population with the Pfizer vaccine, and the raw data collected from the hospitals show those percentages which lead to Pfizer making  booster shot. If you really consume as much science as you can, you would know this. My degree is in science as well, and I'm not a young lad anymore. 

I am also the MPOA and caretaker of my 98 year old grandpa who was infected by a home healthcare worker who was wearing brand new clean gloves and not one, but 2 masks, an n95 mask and a cloth mask under it. The day after she was here, the health department called me and said we were exposed and to keep him in quarantine 10 days and if he develops symptoms to call his doctor. Well he did and I called. Got him tested, he had covid. His flu like symptoms were not extreme but the weakness and fatigue were pretty bad. When his fever reached 103.2 I called the doctor back and they sent and ambulance to pick him up. He was in the hospital for a week and then transferred to a rehab facility for 30 days. I never got tested but during that time I felt like I had a stomach bug for 2-3 days and was really tired. I stayed away from everyone 14 days total, and still social distanced a lot after that. Despite the fact that I am aware that natural immunity is a real legit part of science and has been happening since the beginning of time (or else we wouldnt even exist now), I still elected to get him vaccinated even though his own doctor would not and could not say if it was the right thing to do. I took the chance and he did OK with the vaccine, sort of. A little sick after the second dose. Since then however, he is basically gone in his mind and he is on blood thinners for the first time in his life. He can no longer walk, which he could before he was vaccinated, and he is now in hospice in a total state of dementia while his kidneys are shutting down. He is not expected to live much longer. 

I talked to his 2 doctors at length, his family clinic doc, and his VA doc (he's a WW2 hero and retired fireman btw), and both of them said clear and concise "we dont know yet if natural antibodies will be better than the vaccines, there is not enough data yet". So I asked my GP, and he said the exact same thing. "We dont know yet, but history is on our side with natural immunity". Those were my very experienced doctor's exact words. I asked him "should I get the vaccine even though I probably already had covid?" He said, its up to me, but if I had covid, I have antibodies which no doubt offer at least some protection, maybe better protection, but they just dont know the real answers yet. H said its a personal decision. 

Since my grandpa has been in hospice, everyone in the facility, staff and patients have all been 100% vaccinated, yet every week since then they call me and have at least 1 breakthrough case, causing hard times on any kind of visitation. In fact they called me again this morning with another breakthrough case from someone who has been vaccinated -the 3rd in the last 5 days. In their nursing home, they have only had a few deaths caused by covid according to his nurse. Most of the patients have recovered, even before the vaccines. This is real life, not the news, not Fauci, and not an internet covid hero. 

So there is no way any one can say one way or the other at this point in time. In fact the more time that passes, it seems like the more crap we were led to believe a year ago is proven wrong. Keeping an open mind is what scientist are trained to do, but it seems lost on a lot of the scientific community over this. But when politics and money gets involved, all bets are off. Keep and open mind or you are not a good scientist at all in any field of science. 

I stand my ground that the best way to prevent spread is "social distancing". Masks dont work well enough imo, even the n95 masks arent 100% totally bombproof effective, but anything less than an n95 mask is almost a complete waste of time from what I've seen. Everyone I know who did have covid wore a cloth mask all the time everywhere they went. Used sanitizer, washed hands, etc. Didnt stop it regardless. 

And for the record, the older more ex-hippy liberals that I know are more anti-vax than any Trump supporter I know and its not even close. Just an observation. The younger liberal friends of mine are more open to the vaccines, and some of them think if people dont get it they are murderers, which is utterly insane. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-31-2021, 03:34 PM)bengaloo Wrote: He is basing it on the government data collected from a country who has a large vaccinated population with the Pfizer vaccine, and the raw data collected from the hospitals show those percentages which lead to Pfizer making  booster shot. If you really consume as much science as you can, you would know this. My degree is in science as well, and I'm not a young lad anymore. 

I am also the MPOA and caretaker of my 98 year old grandpa who was infected by a home healthcare worker who was wearing brand new clean gloves and not one, but 2 masks, an n95 mask and a cloth mask under it. The day after she was here, the health department called me and said we were exposed and to keep him in quarantine 10 days and if he develops symptoms to call his doctor. Well he did and I called. Got him tested, he had covid. His flu like symptoms were not extreme but the weakness and fatigue were pretty bad. When his fever reached 103.2 I called the doctor back and they sent and ambulance to pick him up. He was in the hospital for a week and then transferred to a rehab facility for 30 days. I never got tested but during that time I felt like I had a stomach bug for 2-3 days and was really tired. I stayed away from everyone 14 days total, and still social distanced a lot after that. Despite the fact that I am aware that natural immunity is a real legit part of science and has been happening since the beginning of time (or else we wouldnt even exist now), I still elected to get him vaccinated even though his own doctor would not and could not say if it was the right thing to do. I took the chance and he did OK with the vaccine, sort of. A little sick after the second dose. Since then however, he is basically gone in his mind and he is on blood thinners for the first time in his life. He can no longer walk, which he could before he was vaccinated, and he is now in hospice in a total state of dementia while his kidneys are shutting down. He is not expected to live much longer. 

I talked to his 2 doctors at length, his family clinic doc, and his VA doc (he's a WW2 hero and retired fireman btw), and both of them said clear and concise "we dont know yet if natural antibodies will be better than the vaccines, there is not enough data yet". So I asked my GP, and he said the exact same thing. "We dont know yet, but history is on our side with natural immunity". Those were my very experienced doctor's exact words. I asked him "should I get the vaccine even though I probably already had covid?" He said, its up to me, but if I had covid, I have antibodies which no doubt offer at least some protection, maybe better protection, but they just dont know the real answers yet. H said its a personal decision. 

Since my grandpa has been in hospice, everyone in the facility, staff and patients have all been 100% vaccinated, yet every week since then they call me and have at least 1 breakthrough case, causing hard times on any kind of visitation. In fact they called me again this morning with another breakthrough case from someone who has been vaccinated -the 3rd in the last 5 days. In their nursing home, they have only had a few deaths caused by covid according to his nurse. Most of the patients have recovered, even before the vaccines. This is real life, not the news, not Fauci, and not an internet covid hero. 

So there is no way any one can say one way or the other at this point in time. In fact the more time that passes, it seems like the more crap we were led to believe a year ago is proven wrong. Keeping an open mind is what scientist are trained to do, but it seems lost on a lot of the scientific community over this. But when politics and money gets involved, all bets are off. Keep and open mind or you are not a good scientist at all in any field of science. 

I stand my ground that the best way to prevent spread is "social distancing". Masks dont work well enough imo, even the n95 masks arent 100% totally bombproof effective, but anything less than an n95 mask is almost a complete waste of time from what I've seen. Everyone I know who did have covid wore a cloth mask all the time everywhere they went. Used sanitizer, washed hands, etc. Didnt stop it regardless. 

And for the record, the older more ex-hippy liberals that I know are more anti-vax than any Trump supporter I know and its not even close. Just an observation. The younger liberal friends of mine are more open to the vaccines, and some of them think if people dont get it they are murderers, which is utterly insane. 

How effective was the “natural “acquired immunity from getting Covid you speak of at preventing your grandfather from getting Covid?

It was 0% effective because you only get that type of immunity after you get Covid the first time.

Even your anecdotal evidence undermines your argument.

[bengaloo]

(08-31-2021, 04:13 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: How effective was the “natural “acquired immunity from getting Covid you speak of at preventing your grandfather from getting Covid?

It was 0% effective because you only get that type of immunity after you get Covid the first time.

Even your anecdotal evidence undermines your argument.

My grandpa got covid before the vaccines were available. When the vaccines became available to elderly, he got it per my deicision to be as safe as I can be with him. He hasnt had covid since. He is not a breakthrough case. I didnt undermine anything. Your post has nothing valid about it other than being obvious that you didnt read mine vey well.

But I will say this jimbreech. I read all your posts, and I would not want you near any of my loved ones considering how bad you are doing mentally through this to the point that you have to take more antidepressants to cope, which is obvious. Sounds to me like you need a really good long break, for the sake of yourself, your loved ones and others. I hope you get well again. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-31-2021, 04:19 PM)bengaloo Wrote: My grandpa got covid before the vaccines were available. When the vaccines became available to elderly, he got it per my deicision to be as safe as I can be with him. He hasnt had covid since. He is not a breakthrough case. I didnt undermine anything. Your post has nothing valid about it other than being obvious that you didnt read mine vey well.

But I will say this jimbreech. I read all your posts, and I would not want you near any of my loved ones considering how bad you are doing mentally through this to the point that you have to take more antidepressants to cope, which is obvious. Sounds to me like you need a really good long break, for the sake of yourself, your loved ones and others. I hope you get well again. 

Answer one question, how effective would his “natural” acquired immunity from getting his first case of Covid be at preventing his first case of Covid?

Edit: Mods, the insults don’t bother me. Please don’t delete them. I want him to answer the question.

[bengaloo]

(08-31-2021, 04:41 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Answer one question, how effective would his “natural” acquired immunity from getting his first case of Covid be at preventing his first case of Covid?

Edit: Mods, the insults don’t bother me. Please don’t delete them. I want him to answer the question.

My answer is that being his first case of covid, he had no natural immunity because he didnt have covid until he got covid the first time. You have to survive the disease for your body to achieve any amount of immunity. You have no immunity until you are infected with its antibodies. I've never disputed that, ever. But for those who survived covid, which thankfully is over 99% of the people who have got it, that is when they have covid antibodies in their system, and whether its 1 week or 20 years, those natural antibodies have a good chance at protecting them from future infection of the same disease. We just dont know how long and to what extent and to say otherwise is a lie. 

And I wasnt insulting you my friend. More like being concerned based on one of the posts you made about yourself and how badly this is affecting you. I didnt make that post, you did, and it seems a bit concerning for your overall well being is all. My suggestion for you to take a break is no insult. Its caring for my fellow man. That is all. I have nothing against you and value your opinion, but its still just an opinion, and we just simply have not been into the covid thing long enough to know most of the stuff people are claiming including you or myself. That is why I think its good to keep an open mind, as more data comes out. Its early in the game with this man. We both know that. 

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-31-2021, 05:17 PM)bengaloo Wrote: My answer is that being his first case of covid, he had no natural immunity because he didnt have covid until he got covid the first time. You have to survive the disease for your body to achieve any amount of immunity.

What about his innate immunity?

You’re using imprecise terms like natural immunity and trying to create confusion with innate and acquired immunity.

So tell me, if there is natural immunity; what’s unnatural immunity?

Quote:You have no immunity until you are infected with its antibodies.

You don’t get infected with antibodies. Your immune system creates antibodies in response to an antigen.

Quote:I've never disputed that, ever.

You have repeatedly implied “natural immunity” is superior to vaccinations. Despite your own source stating otherwise. First, you are referring to acquired immunity from PRIOR infection. Another type of acquired immunity is from vaccinations that provides immunity without getting the disease. Second, your grandfather did have innate immunity, but he did not have acquired immunity from previous infection.

So this so called “natural” immunity you keep pimping does nothing to prevent your first case of Covid. As evidenced by your grandfather.

But, there is something people who have never had Covid can do to prevent getting their first case of Covid. It rhymes with “vaccination.”

Quote:But for those who survived covid, which thankfully is over 99% of the people who have got it,

The case fatality rate varies greatly by demographics.

Quote:that is when they have covid antibodies in their system, and whether its 1 week or 20 years, those natural antibodies have a good chance at protecting them from future infection of the same disease. We just dont know how long and to what extent and to say otherwise is a lie.

We routinely check antibody levels for new hires because a acquired immunity due to past infection (and even vaccines) wanes with time. That’s the basis for every childhood and adult immunization booster.

Quote:And I wasnt insulting you my friend. More like being concerned based on one of the posts you made about yourself and how badly this is affecting you. I didnt make that post, you did, and it seems a bit concerning for your overall well being is all. My suggestion for you to take a break is no insult. Its caring for my fellow man. That is all. I have nothing against you and value your opinion, but its still just an opinion, and we just simply have not been into the covid thing long enough to know most of the stuff people are claiming including you or myself. That is why I think its good to keep an open mind, as more data comes out. Its early in the game with this man. We both know that. 

Oh, so now I can’t even be sure when someone is insulting me?

That’s pretty funny coming from someone who doesn’t know the difference between an antibody and an antigen, but is handing out misinformation on immunity and vaccines.

[bengaloo]

(08-31-2021, 06:20 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: What about his innate immunity?

You’re using imprecise terms like natural immunity and trying to create confusion with innate and acquired immunity.

So tell me, if there is natural immunity; what’s unnatural immunity?


You don’t get infected with antibodies. Your immune system creates antibodies in response to an antigen.



You have repeatedly implied “natural immunity” is superior to vaccinations. Despite your own source stating otherwise.  First, you are referring to acquired immunity from PRIOR infection. Another type of acquired immunity is from vaccinations that provides immunity without getting the disease. Second, your grandfather did have innate immunity, but he did not have acquired immunity from previous infection.

So this so called “natural” immunity you keep pimping does nothing to prevent your first case of Covid. As evidenced by your grandfather.

But, there is something people who have never had Covid can do to prevent getting their first case of Covid. It rhymes with “vaccination.”


The case fatality rate varies greatly by demographics.


We routinely check antibody levels for new hires because a acquired immunity due to past infection (and even vaccines) wanes with time. That’s the basis for every childhood and adult immunization booster.


Oh, so now I can’t even be sure when someone is insulting me?

That’s pretty funny coming from someone who doesn’t know the difference between an antibody and an antigen, but is handing out misinformation on immunity and vaccines.

Lol. I love you too   

Well I dont recall ever suggesting immunity from anyone who wasnt infected previously. That wouldnt even make sense. I'm only specifically talking about people who have had covid already and recovered, and how they should have antibodies and protection from another infection based on history. I didnt make any of this stuff up myself though, it actually comes from me being concerned about covid, and delta, and paying attention to what people around the world are discovering with zero bias. There is new data and statistics coming out every single day as this unfolds. I will post a few links and you can tell these doctors what they are pimpin, because I'm only pimpin keeping an open mind, and of course hoping things get better. Honestly if it turns out that natural immunity for the previously infected is better than the vaccines for the previously infected, than this is really super good news and everyone should be very happy about it! Right?   

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/dr-makary-says-natural-immunity-is-more-effective-then-vaccine-immunity/ar-AAMX3sM

https://news.yahoo.com/study-says-natural-immunity-may-033228548.html

A raw study of natural immunity vs vaccine induced immunity data included:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1.full.pdf

Oh and how is Sweden fairing through Delta? They didnt lock down, mask mandate or anything and took the "herd immunity" approach from the start of the entire pandemic.
https://www.the-sun.com/news/3405414/mask-free-sweden-zero-daily-covid-deaths-delta/


So I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but I'm not handing out any misinformation on immunity and vaccines. I'm simply stating that we dont really know yet and should keep an open mind on all sides as this unfolds. And of course that there is evidence coming out around the globe of natural immunity for the previously infected. We can do this all day long, but I can tell that you are very emotional about all this. So respectfully, I will bow out now and give you the moral victory. You are the champ, and I lose!  

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

(08-31-2021, 06:45 PM)bengaloo Wrote: Lol. I love you too   

Well I dont recall ever suggesting immunity from anyone who wasnt infected previously. That wouldnt even make sense. I'm only specifically talking about people who have had covid already and recovered, and how they should have antibodies and protection from another infection based on history. I didnt make any of this stuff up myself though, it actually comes from me being concerned about covid, and delta, and paying attention to what people around the world are discovering with zero bias. There is new data and statistics coming out every single day as this unfolds. I will post a few links and you can tell these doctors what they are pimpin, because I'm only pimpin keeping an open mind, and of course hoping things get better. Honestly if it turns out that natural immunity for the previously infected is better than the vaccines for the previously infected, than this is really super good news and everyone should be very happy about it! Right?   

Which means you’re comparing re-infections to first infections.

And what about the people who didn’t recover? How’s their protection for re-infection? What about their protection against hospitalizations?

One thing is for certain, 100% of the re-infection group had Covid at least one time more than the vaccine group 100% of the time.

Quote:https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/dr-makary-says-natural-immunity-is-more-effective-then-vaccine-immunity/ar-AAMX3sM

Compares re-infections to first infections.

Your source even tweeted, “Same take-home message though: If you're not immune, get immune by getting vaxed.” Meaning if you haven’t already had Covid get vaccinated so hopefully you won’t get it the first time.

Quote:https://news.yahoo.com/study-says-natural-immunity-may-033228548.html

That compares re-infections to first infections.

Quote:A raw study of natural immunity vs vaccine induced immunity data included:
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1.full.pdf

Compares re-infections to first infections. Your source also stated, “Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta variant.” A finding you have repeatedly disputed, yet all your sources contradict your statements.

Which means if you have two groups who have both previously had Covid and you vaccinate one group; the vaccine group has better immunity.

Just like if you had two groups who had never had Covid and you vaccinate one group, the vaccine group has better immunity.

Quote:Oh and how is Sweden fairing through Delta? They didnt lock down, mask mandate or anything and took the "herd immunity" approach from the start of the entire pandemic.
https://www.the-sun.com/news/3405414/mask-free-sweden-zero-daily-covid-deaths-delta/

Let’s check your source: “So far, Denmark has recorded 2,550, Finland 982, Norway 799 - a far cry from Sweden's 14,620 recorded deaths.”

Sweden has had percent increase of 473% more Covid deaths than Denmark, 1,389% more deaths than Finland, and 1,730% than Norway.

How does that sound to you? It sounds like Sweden is doing almost as badly as you.

Quote:So I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but I'm not handing out any misinformation on immunity and vaccines. I'm simply stating that we dont really know yet and should keep an open mind on all sides as this unfolds. And of course that there is evidence coming out around the globe of natural immunity for the previously infected. We can do this all day long, but I can tell that you are very emotional about all this. So respectfully, I will bow out now and give you the moral victory. You are the champ, and I lose!  

You are comparing the chance of getting Covid a second time to getting Covid a first time which is exactly the type of misinformation I would expect from someone who doesn’t know the difference between an antibody and an antigen. You don’t even know enough to know better.