Mike Brown and Offensive linemen....some random history

[fredtoast]

(09-23-2021, 03:17 PM)bengals67 Wrote: Anyone with half a brain knew that signing one above average aging tackle was not nearly enough- particularly given their decision to take a WR instead of an o lineman in first round of draft.

Anyone with half a brain would know that we replaced 40% of the starters plus the O-line coach since the beginning of last season.

He would also know that the current Bengals O-line is top ten in win rate and that Burrow has had at least 3 seconds to throw the ball on every single sack he has taken.

[samhain]

In terms of recent history, part of the problem is the current state of line play in the college game. The majority of top college programs run wide open offenses predicated on the passing game and skill players. Linemen needed for that style of play are more pass-block oriented than the traditional NFL behemoth that used to be able to be had in middle rounds. The players are more athletic but less dominant at the line of scrimmage. That's going to make for a rude awakening for a lot of players when they get to the league and have to face NFL d-linemen.

I guess what I'm saying is that in the past, there were just a lot more NFL-ready guys on the interior that you could draft without spending a high pick. They could be plugged in and play passable football because they came from run-heavy offenses at the college level. The power game is de-valued until they get to the pros.

Our o-line sucks over the last half-decade or so, but if you look around the league, it seems like a majority of teams have middling to shitty offensive lines. Few have good to elite units out there anymore. I hear lot of talk about teams wanting to get good enough to be average up front, because it's hard as hell to actually be great with the talent pool being so diminished.

The Bengals were double screwed in 2019 when Boling retired, Glenn acted out, and Jonah never made it to the field. They had to scrap together a group of outcasts and raw linemen, and that's a recipe for disaster in this era. Without heavy investment in established free agents, it's going to take a long time to rebuild from that kind of rock-bottom.

[GodFather]

(09-23-2021, 10:32 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Here are some facts about how Mike Brown has dealt with the O-line since '91.

--Over the last 7 drafts the Bengals have selected 5 O-linemen in the first 2 rounds.  In the 24 previous drafts the Bengals only selected 6 O-linemen in the first two rounds. So there was a time when the Bengals refused to use high draft picks on O-line, but that is not true anymore.

--While the Bengals have more than tripled their rate of drafting O-linemen in the first two rounds the difference in quality is staggering.  The 6 prior to '15 were Willie Anderson, Levi Jones, Eric Steinbach, Andrew Whitworth, Andre Smith, and Eric Zeitler. (Some consider Smith a bust, but he was one of the better RTs in the league from '11-'13)  The 5 since '15 were Ogbuehi, Jake Fisher, Billy Price, Jonah Williams, and Jackson Carman. (Jonah is finally playing like a first round pick.  The question is his ability to stay healthy.  I still like Carman's potential a lot, but he has not contributed anything yet).  So the problem is not that the Bengals don't value O-linemen.  Instead the problem has been scouting/development.  

--In 2018, for the first time in team history, the Bengals traded for an established starter on the O-line.  Cordy Glenn was a high second round pick who had started since his rookie season and whose second contract had made him the 8th highest paid OT in the league.  But, like our recent high draft picks, that also failed.  

--This year, again for the first time in team history, the Bengals signed an established top-level starter in free agency.  They made Riley Rieff the 10th highest paid RT in the league.  So far that moves has worked out great.

--The '05 O-line was arguably the best in team history.  They set a team record for fewest sacks allowed while Rudi Johnson set the team single-season rushing record.  Mike Brown realized their value.  The problem was that all five starters were hitting free agency at the same time. There was no way they could keep them all.  Center Rich Braham got a contract extension in '05.  In '06 Levi Jones and Willie Anderson got contract extensions that made them the highest paid OT tandem in the league.  Bobbie Williams was also re-signed in '06.  That made it pretty much impossible to re-sign Eric Steinbach when he as rated as the #1 O-line free agent in '07.  With Andrew Whitworth waiting to step in it would have been ridiculous to pay Steinbach what he got from the Browns.  The $49 million deal made him the second highest paid OG in the league.  Eric was good but not near that good.  He was a ProBowl alternate one time but the Browns released him with two year left on the contract. It is ironic that Steinbach is often cited as proof that Mike Brown is cheap with OGs when at that time Mike Brown was spending the most ever on his O-line.

--The Bengals used to be good at finding free agent value.  It is hard to say if it was scouting or development but the Bengals got a lot of good play from Rich Braham (cut by the Cards), Bobbie Williams (second round pick considered a bust with the Eagles), Evan Mathis (cut by 2 teams in 2 years before signing with Bengals), and UDFA Kyle Cook (grossly underrated, only allowed 4 sacks in his first 48 starts '09-'11 before injury ruined his career).  Also, if you believe in free-market economics then the Bengals also did well developing UDFA Nate Livings, 4th round Pick Stacy Andrews, and 4th round pick Anthony Collins.  

--2009 may have clouded Mike Browns vision on offensive linemen.  That year the Bengals won a division title with an O-line that got 44 combined starts from 3 undrafted free agents an a 4th round pick who came into that season with only 13 total NFL starts.  Many of our recent "low dollar" additions to our O-line have had much more experience than that. John Miller (47 starts with Bills), Bobby Hart (21 starts with Giants), Xavier Su'a-Filo (53 starts with Texans and Cowboys), and Quinton Spain (66 starts with Titans and Bills).

In the famous words of Fred links to this information for accuracy?

[SunsetBengal]

I sort of feel like the quantity of quality OL that the NCAA has been has been producing, has been decreasing steadily for the past 20 years.  It's not just the Bengals who have been picking and missing on top rated OL, it's the NFL in general.  The key to finding the good OL is the same as it always has been, quality scouting.  Don't get caught up in the metrics and measurables, just find the good football players that have solid fundamentals that don't need taught once they reach the professional level.

[PCB Bengal Fan]

(09-23-2021, 10:32 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Here are some facts about how Mike Brown has dealt with the O-line since '91.

--Over the last 7 drafts the Bengals have selected 5 O-linemen in the first 2 rounds.  In the 24 previous drafts the Bengals only selected 6 O-linemen in the first two rounds. So there was a time when the Bengals refused to use high draft picks on O-line, but that is not true anymore.

--While the Bengals have more than tripled their rate of drafting O-linemen in the first two rounds the difference in quality is staggering.  The 6 prior to '15 were Willie Anderson, Levi Jones, Eric Steinbach, Andrew Whitworth, Andre Smith, and Eric Zeitler. (Some consider Smith a bust, but he was one of the better RTs in the league from '11-'13)  The 5 since '15 were Ogbuehi, Jake Fisher, Billy Price, Jonah Williams, and Jackson Carman. (Jonah is finally playing like a first round pick.  The question is his ability to stay healthy.  I still like Carman's potential a lot, but he has not contributed anything yet).  So the problem is not that the Bengals don't value O-linemen.  Instead the problem has been scouting/development.  

--In 2018, for the first time in team history, the Bengals traded for an established starter on the O-line.  Cordy Glenn was a high second round pick who had started since his rookie season and whose second contract had made him the 8th highest paid OT in the league.  But, like our recent high draft picks, that also failed.  

--This year, again for the first time in team history, the Bengals signed an established top-level starter in free agency.  They made Riley Rieff the 10th highest paid RT in the league.  So far that moves has worked out great.

--The '05 O-line was arguably the best in team history.  They set a team record for fewest sacks allowed while Rudi Johnson set the team single-season rushing record.  Mike Brown realized their value.  The problem was that all five starters were hitting free agency at the same time. There was no way they could keep them all.  Center Rich Braham got a contract extension in '05.  In '06 Levi Jones and Willie Anderson got contract extensions that made them the highest paid OT tandem in the league.  Bobbie Williams was also re-signed in '06.  That made it pretty much impossible to re-sign Eric Steinbach when he as rated as the #1 O-line free agent in '07.  With Andrew Whitworth waiting to step in it would have been ridiculous to pay Steinbach what he got from the Browns.  The $49 million deal made him the second highest paid OG in the league.  Eric was good but not near that good.  He was a ProBowl alternate one time but the Browns released him with two year left on the contract. It is ironic that Steinbach is often cited as proof that Mike Brown is cheap with OGs when at that time Mike Brown was spending the most ever on his O-line.

--The Bengals used to be good at finding free agent value.  It is hard to say if it was scouting or development but the Bengals got a lot of good play from Rich Braham (cut by the Cards), Bobbie Williams (second round pick considered a bust with the Eagles), Evan Mathis (cut by 2 teams in 2 years before signing with Bengals), and UDFA Kyle Cook (grossly underrated, only allowed 4 sacks in his first 48 starts '09-'11 before injury ruined his career).  Also, if you believe in free-market economics then the Bengals also did well developing UDFA Nate Livings, 4th round Pick Stacy Andrews, and 4th round pick Anthony Collins.  

--2009 may have clouded Mike Browns vision on offensive linemen.  That year the Bengals won a division title with an O-line that got 44 combined starts from 3 undrafted free agents an a 4th round pick who came into that season with only 13 total NFL starts.  Many of our recent "low dollar" additions to our O-line have had much more experience than that. John Miller (47 starts with Bills), Bobby Hart (21 starts with Giants), Xavier Su'a-Filo (53 starts with Texans and Cowboys), and Quinton Spain (66 starts with Titans and Bills).

I think the best line was 88 & it's not really close IMHO.

[ezekiel23]

Mike Brown is still very involved,and has a lot of input with this team whether you want to believe it or not.He never has impressed me as someone who had an eye for talent.Paul Alexander himself said that Mike Brown called him just prior to the draft to get his opinion on Jackson Carman.Of course Alexander just raved over him,like he did Ogbuehi and Fisher,Bodine,and Price.

I really believe Mike Brown was convinced that he would start week 1,and would be the best lineman since Andrew Whitworth.

[SunsetBengal]

(09-23-2021, 05:15 PM)PCB Bengal Fan Wrote: I think the best line was 88 & it's not really close IMHO.

I'm just guessing, but I took him to mean during the Mike Brown era of ownership and control.  (he didn't specifically say that, but the OP is talking about Mike Brown and his level of of investment into OL)

[fredtoast]

(09-23-2021, 05:15 PM)PCB Bengal Fan Wrote: I think the best line was 88 & it's not really close IMHO.

'88 O-line finished in the bottom half of the league in sack percentage (15th of 28 teams).  '05 ranked 2nd.

LT Munoz was the best ever.  RT Joe Walter not so much.

[bengals67]

(09-23-2021, 03:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Anyone with half a brain would know that we replaced 40% of the starters plus the O-line coach since the beginning of last season.

He would also know that the current Bengals O-line is top ten in win rate and that Burrow has had at least 3 seconds to throw the ball on every single sack he has taken.

First it is really strange for you to go after a less than half brained person such as myself after I gave you kudos for your history. I truly appreciated it and said so.

Second it’s hard for a less than half brained person such as myself to debate full brained people like you.

Third , limited as I am with less than half a brain I stand by my comments.

Regardless of the number of changes in the starting line, being on track to set the record for most sacks of a qb might be an indication of lack of investment in above average free agents and a decision to go cheap on protecting Burrow

Most sincerely from your less than half brained friend!

[Shake n Blake]

(09-23-2021, 06:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: '88 O-line finished in the bottom half of the league in sack percentage (15th of 28 teams).  '05 ranked 2nd.

LT Munoz was the best ever.  RT Joe Walter not so much.

I don't think it's so simple, Fred.

The 1988 Bengals ranked #1 in the league in yards per completion, at 16.0...which is an insane number.

The 2005 Bengals ranked 22nd at only 10.9 yards per completion.

This means the 88 team was taking FAR more deep shots than the 05 team, and the fact that they were still middle of the road in sack % just goes to show how great that line was. There was no dink and dunk going on. We were taking shots regularly, and those need more time to develop.

[fredtoast]

(09-23-2021, 06:52 PM)bengals67 Wrote: First it is really strange for you to go after a less than half brained person such as myself after I gave you kudos for your history. I truly appreciated it and said so.

Second it’s hard for a less than half brained person such as myself to debate full brained people like you.

Third , limited as I am with less than half a brain I stand by my comments.

Regardless of the number of changes in the starting line, being on track to set the record for most sacks of a qb might be an indication of lack of investment in above average free agents and a decision to go cheap on protecting Burrow  

Most sincerely from your less than half brained friend!

If you pay attention to the style of my posts you will see that the language of my replies mirrors the post I am replying to.  The people who use over-the-top arrogant language in their original post will get the same back to me.

I only accused you of having half a brain because you accused me first.

People who use more rational language get more rational replies from me.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

PFF so far:

Sewell 71.0
Jonah 60.1
Reiff 60.7
Spain 66.7
XSF 50.0
Hopkins 46.1 (Week 1 sunk his grade)

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-23-2021, 06:34 PM)fredtoast Wrote: '88 O-line finished in the bottom half of the league in sack percentage (15th of 28 teams).  '05 ranked 2nd.

LT Munoz was the best ever.  RT Joe Walter not so much.

In his prime, before shredding his knee, Joe was very good. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-23-2021, 07:06 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I don't think it's so simple, Fred.

The 1988 Bengals ranked #1 in the league in yards per completion, at 16.0...which is an insane number.

The 2005 Bengals ranked 22nd at only 10.9 yards per completion.

This means the 88 team was taking FAR more deep shots than the 05 team, and the fact that they were still middle of the road in sack % just goes to show how great that line was. There was no dink and dunk going on. We were taking shots regularly, and those need more time to develop.

That's the thing about the '80s. It's when offenses really started opening up and throwing the ball more, and deeper than before. People always say "different time, wrs...qbs...etc" but trends were going towards more wide open offenses then and the win% is going to be lower for them because they held the ball longer and took way more 7 step drops. These days it's all about getting the ball out quick. 

[t3r3e3]

While the Bengals changed 40% of their starters from 20-21, the interior o-line is a bottom 5 NFL unit. XSF can’t stay healthy and he’s not good when he is healthy. Spain is middling, and Hopkins is thoroughly average. No one mistakes this for a decent line. Jonah is decent but injury prone, and Reiff is not a long term answer. Burrow won’t last if the pressures and sacks keep at the current pace. 6 games against quality division pass rushes will tell the tale.

[*PhilHos*]

(09-23-2021, 06:52 PM)bengals67 Wrote: Regardless of the number of changes in the starting line, being on track to set the record for most sacks of a qb might be an indication of lack of investment in above average free agents and a decision to go cheap on protecting Burrow  

Or maybe most of our sacks this year are not the fault of solely the OL. Like RBs and WRs failing to pick up blitzers or a QB who should throw the ball away and doesn't. Not saying our OL is good or anything, but if fred's stats are true (and they usually are), then clearly the issue for the sacks is multi-faceted and cannot be blamed solely at the feet of the OL.

[TJ528]

(09-23-2021, 07:06 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I don't think it's so simple, Fred.

The 1988 Bengals ranked #1 in the league in yards per completion, at 16.0...which is an insane number.

The 2005 Bengals ranked 22nd at only 10.9 yards per completion.

This means the 88 team was taking FAR more deep shots than the 05 team, and the fact that they were still middle of the road in sack % just goes to show how great that line was. There was no dink and dunk going on. We were taking shots regularly, and those need more time to develop.

Personally, i think Coslet and Wyche were the best offensive duo this team has had since Bill Walsh was OC back in the 70's.  

So thats probably why they had a 16 ypc average.  

They were just so innovative.  I loved their offense and wish we'd find a coach with an imagination here in Cincy again. 

[bengalguy71]

Not rocket science GB!

Coaches, staff, and players have all turned over NUMEROUS times since 1991.

MB has been the only constant!

[Bengalstripes9]

They definitely need to draft better. But they also need to manage the players they have better. Ogbue wasn't good enough. They let Whit go anyway. And how many years has Whit had (since he left) playing LT at a damn near elite level? It's been atleast 4 or 5 years since we let him go. We let him go (or lowballed him, however you want to put it) in favor of a player that hadn't proved a damn thing yet. That is poor management.

Besides Whit, we did hit on Boling and Zeitler. One of them we let go. The other was fed up with us and retired. These three lineman, if retained, would have been part of a much better line the past several years.

So in short, the problem isn't just drafting, it's managing what you have.

[fredtoast]

(09-24-2021, 12:43 PM)bengalguy71 Wrote: Not rocket science GB!

Coaches, staff, and players have all turned over NUMEROUS times since 1991.

MB has been the only constant!

I don't understand your point.

Did you read my post.  For the first 24 years of the Mike Brown Era the Bengals almost never took O-linemen in the first two rounds, but over the last 7 drafts they have tripled their rate of drafting O-linemen high.

In the first 24 years they never missed on a O-lineman with a high draft pick, but over the last 7 drafts they have missed more than they have hit.

So how does Mike Brown being "the only constant" explain the dramatic shift?