Are we looking at Brady vs Belichick all wrong?

[Shake n Blake]

Most will just look at the fact that Tom won 6 rings in New England, then look at how he won another in his first year in Tampa (while the Pats struggled), and come to the conclusion that "welp...it must've been Brady all along".

That sounds reasonable on the surface...but what if we look a little more deeply at this?

The Patriots obviously had a great coach for all of Brady's time in New England. Not just a great HC, but many coordinators who were promoted to HC jobs elsewhere. Often on the defensive side of the ball.

Despite how some think Brady carried the Pats on his back, the team had an embarrassment of talent over his 20 years there.

Vince Wilfork, Richard Seymour, Asante Samuel, Darrelle Revis, Corey Dillon, Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Teddy Bruschi, Rodney Harrison, Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy, Deion Branch, Willie McGinest, Julian Edelman, Ron Gronkowski, Junior Seau, Adam Vinitieri, etc etc

Because the talent around him always changed through the years, people forget all these players and focus on the 2 constants: Brady and Bill...but all these players contributed heavily to the success.

------------------

Basically, my theory is this: Brady is and always has been an elite QB and an all-time great, but he was also in an all-time great scenario, with outstanding coaching, top 10 (often top 5) defenses for every championship, he always had great skill position players, not to mention 2 of the best and most clutch kickers of all-time.

When that well started to dry up a couple years ago (and Brady was throwing picks on the way to a first round exit), Brady decided to pull a LeBron James. Meaning he left a situation that was starting to fall apart, scoped out a "bad" team that had a lot of talent/assets, but just needed a QB, and bam...wins another ring.

This whole scenario added a lot to the legend of Tom Brady, and in some ways rightfully so...but I can't help but notice that this was a pretty crafty move by Tom. The Bucs were a ready-made team, loaded with talent and a good coach. Add in an elite QB, and it was easy to see they'd be contenders... and of course Tom would be viewed as the sole reason for them winning.

--------------

Now this isn't me hating on Brady. Again, I think he's a legend and an all-time great. Due to his resume, you have to say he's the best ever. But deep down I wonder how many rings Peyton or Rodgers would have with 20 years of Belichick and all that talent. Or 1 year with the receivers and defense in Tampa with Arians.

[BengalsRocker]

Although I believe Brady is one of the best NFL QB's of all time.

Watching them all(Brady/Rogers/Manning/Brees)I feel that Peyton Manning is the best QB I've ever see play the game in real time.

He masterfully ran an offense and read the defense.

A true thing of beauty in his prime.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-03-2021, 02:57 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: Although I believe Brady is one of the best NFL QB's of all time.

Watching them all(Brady/Rogers/Manning/Brees)I feel that Peyton Manning is the best QB I've ever see play the game in real time.

He masterfully ran an offense and read the defense.

A true thing of beauty in his prime.

Same...and I already feel like Peyton is being shoved to afterthought status, probably because Brady's playoff career trounced Peyton's. But again, I wonder how Peyton would've done had he played his entire career in NE.

I'm sure he'd have a fist full of rings. He very rarely if ever had that kind of defense backing him up. Or coaching tbh.

[jfkbengals]

(10-03-2021, 03:02 PM)OShake n Blake Wrote: Same...and I already feel like Peyton is being shoved to afterthought status, probably because Brady's playoff career trounced Peyton's. But again, I wonder how Peyton would've done had he played his entire career in NE.

I'm sure he'd have a fist full of rings. He very rarely if ever had that kind of defense backing him up. Or coaching tbh.

Or been woefully underpaid for his skill set like Brady was.  The Pats first Championship team was probably the least talented he was a part of, but after that they had tons of talent around him.  Once he married a billionaire, he was choosing to be underpaid so the Patriots could have an advantage on assembling quality teams.  What led to the separation between the two was the fact that his discount stopped being used to pay proven highly skilled players or sign top quality free agents, instead relying on draft picks that missed.

[Interceptor]

(10-03-2021, 02:57 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: Although I believe Brady is one of the best NFL QB's of all time.

Watching them all(Brady/Rogers/Manning/Brees)I feel that Peyton Manning is the best QB I've ever see play the game in real time.

He masterfully ran an offense and read the defense.

A true thing of beauty in his prime.

The easiest job in the world was being OC with Peyton your QB.

[J24]

Tom supporting cast in new England was underrated. Especially those defenses in the early 00s. They do not beat Peyton and the Colts without those defenses. Also what isn't said is that the core of the 01 defense also went to a Superbowl in 96 against the Packers.

With that being said Tom is arguably the most unselfish superstar in American Sports and what made him truly remarkable was his ability to manage a game.

[Shake n Blake]

I expected this to be an unpopular take, but so far I'm pleasantly surprised. Btw, the fact that Mac Jones outplayed Brady tonight and the Bucs still won just goes to show that it's not all him in Tampa, either.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-03-2021, 08:33 PM)jfkbengals Wrote: Or been woefully underpaid for his skill set like Brady was.  The Pats first Championship team was probably the least talented he was a part of, but after that they had tons of talent around him.  Once he married a billionaire, he was choosing to be underpaid so the Patriots could have an advantage on assembling quality teams.  What led to the separation between the two was the fact that his discount stopped being used to pay proven highly skilled players or sign top quality free agents, instead relying on draft picks that missed.

Right. Tom's willingness to take substantially less than his market value was low-key a huge reason for their success. Think about it this way. How many times have teams dominated while having a great QB on a rookie deal?

The Seahawks and Russell Wilson. KC and Mahomes. (To a lesser extent) us and Dalton. New England was able to do that for a very long time.

Disclaimer: I am NOT comparing Dalton to the above QB's. Just saying the Bengals had a solid QB on a rookie deal. Any misinterpretation is on you, not me. Side effects of misinterpretation include violent seizures, tremors, keyboard throwing, and chance of death.

[XenoMorph]

(10-03-2021, 02:40 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Most will just look at the fact that Tom won 6 rings in New England, then look at how he won another in his first year in Tampa (while the Pats struggled), and come to the conclusion that "welp...it must've been Brady all along".

That sounds reasonable on the surface...but what if we look a little more deeply at this?

The Patriots obviously had a great coach for all of Brady's time in New England. Not just a great HC, but many coordinators who were promoted to HC jobs elsewhere. Often on the defensive side of the ball.

Despite how some think Brady carried the Pats on his back, the team had an embarrassment of talent over his 20 years there.

Vince Wilfork, Richard Seymour, Asante Samuel, Darrelle Revis, Corey Dillon, Randy Moss, Wes Welker, Teddy Bruschi, Rodney Harrison, Ty Law, Lawyer Milloy, Deion Branch, Willie McGinest, Julian Edelman, Ron Gronkowski, Junior Seau, Adam Vinitieri, etc etc

Because the talent around him always changed through the years, people forget all these players and focus on the 2 constants: Brady and Bill...but all these players contributed heavily to the success.

------------------

Basically, my theory is this: Brady is and always has been an elite QB and an all-time great, but he was also in an all-time great scenario, with outstanding coaching, top 10 (often top 5) defenses for every championship, he always had great skill position players, not to mention 2 of the best and most clutch kickers of all-time.

When that well started to dry up a couple years ago (and Brady was throwing picks on the way to a first round exit), Brady decided to pull a LeBron James. Meaning he left a situation that was starting to fall apart, scoped out a "bad" team that had a lot of talent/assets, but just needed a QB, and bam...wins another ring.

This whole scenario added a lot to the legend of Tom Brady, and in some ways rightfully so...but I can't help but notice that this was a pretty crafty move by Tom. The Bucs were a ready-made team, loaded with talent and a good coach. Add in an elite QB, and it was easy to see they'd be contenders... and of course Tom would be viewed as the sole reason for them winning.

--------------

Now this isn't me hating on Brady. Again, I think he's a legend and an all-time great. Due to his resume, you have to say he's the best ever. But deep down I wonder how many rings Peyton or Rodgers would have with 20 years of Belichick and all that talent. Or 1 year with the receivers and defense in Tampa with Arians.

thing with brady is he isnt the most naturally gifted guy out there... Hes just the hardest working.

[XenoMorph]

(10-04-2021, 01:02 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I expected this to be an unpopular take, but so far I'm pleasantly surprised. Btw, the fact that Mac Jones outplayed Brady tonight and the Bucs still won just goes to show that it's not all him in Tampa, either.

theres 53 players on each team its never just 1 guy

[motoarch]

This is an impossible exercise.

What if Brady had been drafted by Washington? Do we ever hear of him? Does he ever play in a single playoff game?

What if Manning had? Does it really change much of anything related to his career path?

Something about Bradys play and career make me feel like he and Bill coming together were lightning in a bottle.

Brady has obviously taken advantage opportunity and that translated to success without Bill but Im not so sure he really achieves anything without him. At least not early in his career.

Im not so sure a guy like Manning works with Bill though. I think Brady was perfect given his attitude and coming in as an underrated late round pick. I actually feel Manning would have succeeded regardless of who drafted him and who coached him but would not have necessarily been better with Bill.

Theres no way to know and this is purely for fun but thats my 2 cents.

[Shake n Blake]

(10-04-2021, 11:41 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: theres 53 players on each team its never just 1 guy

Tell that to the average Undisputed-watching fanboy.

(10-04-2021, 01:25 PM)motoarch Wrote: This is an impossible exercise.

What if Brady had been drafted by Washington? Do we ever hear of him? Does he ever play in a single playoff game?

What if Manning had? Does it really change much of anything related to his career path?

Something about Bradys play and career make me feel like he and Bill coming together were lightning in a bottle.

Brady has obviously taken advantage opportunity and that translated to success without Bill but Im not so sure he really achieves anything without him. At least not early in his career.

Im not so sure a guy like Manning works with Bill though. I think Brady was perfect given his attitude and coming in as an underrated late round pick. I actually feel Manning would have succeeded regardless of who drafted him and who coached him but would not have necessarily been better with Bill.

Theres no way to know and this is purely for fun but thats my 2 cents.

These are great points. Brady was a guy that Bill was able to take and mold. Back in their first 3 championship runs, Brady was viewed as a game manager. He didn't really post any eye-popping numbers at all.

His progression into best-ever status was very gradual and amazing to watch.

Peyton was more ready-made, and tbh what made him a legend was his ability to be an OC on the field. Not sure how that would've worked in New England, but I do know Peyton would've killed to have some of those defenses.

In summary, my gut just tells me Brady was a top 10 QB in a top 1 situation, with unprecedented longevity, and those 3 things combined led to him having the best resume in NFL history. In a vacuum with all things equal, I don't think he was a better player than Peyton or Rodgers. Maybe not even Montana, who I still view as the most clutch to ever do it.

It's fun to talk about though.