On criticizing NFL coaches

[fredtoast]

(10-13-2021, 10:18 AM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: I’ll just add that you can’t put drops in coaches unless those coaches put bad talent on the field when you have better talent not on the field running those routes.

Like the great read and throw by Burrow to Higgins late in the game for a first down only to have Higgins drop a first down catch and room to run. That’s a good call by the coaches, adjustment, reading the defense and throw by burrow but the execution at the end failed.

I know Higgins is a good receiver, I know he has good hands to make catches other receivers can’t, but it seems that he is having a slump. I’d like to see him get another ball or 2 thrown his way to try to work him out of it.

Tee had a couple of drops.  Sample and Chase also had drops.  Spain had a huge drive killing penalty that probably cost us points.  In addition to his 2 picks Burrow also had a couple of terrible throws on deep balls that could easily have been intercepted.

Lots of little things you can't blame on coaches.

[*bfine32*]

(10-13-2021, 08:24 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I'm sure all the other NFL teams are not going to worry about Chase (top 10 in receiving yards, TDs, and yds/reception), Burrow (top 10 in passer rating and TDs), or Higgins (1000+ yds in 17 starts) because they are "just kids".

The TDs they score are not worth as many points as the ones scored by "grown ups" in the NFL, right?

If you don't want folks to give their views on your threads, then just say so in the OP. 

[Sled21]

(10-13-2021, 09:39 AM)jj22 Wrote: Am I reading this right? We aren't able to take a coaches overall record when analyzing if he is a good coach or not? We can only use his current years record?

Yep, you're sort of reading that right. New Head Coaches, like players improve over time. You could have a HC go 0-16 his first year, 3-13 his second year, then go to the Super Bowl in his 3rd year, and by your logic he would still be a bad coach because he went 3-29 his first two years, even if he coaches brilliantly in the 3rd year. This league has always been a "what have you done for me lately" league, and what you did last year doesn't mean squat. The only thing I care about is how a coach is doing this year. So far, Taylor is winning. Now let's see if it lasts. 

[fredtoast]

(10-13-2021, 11:08 AM)bfine32 Wrote: If you don't want folks to give their views on your threads, then just say so in the OP. 

If you don't want people criticizing your comments then don't post them on a message board.

I'm still trying to figure out how "college talent" gets a player ranked in the top 10 in the NFL.

[Earendil]

I would love to see Joe run some kind of no-huddle, hurry-up offense. And not just with less than two minutes left in a half. The kid is smart enough to run it, let him loose.

[*bfine32*]

(10-13-2021, 01:28 AM)Whatever Wrote: That's also a very fair point.  We're playing a lot of rookies and 2nd year guys on offense and several of the 2nd year guys have missed significant time with injury.  Lots of learning on the job going on.

(10-13-2021, 08:18 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: While a little harsh (Jonah has been very good, Uzo is solid, Burrow is really, really good) there is a lot of truth to this.   But I see a lot of the same things in LA (Chargers) and their coach is dropping 40 burgers on teams on a weekly basis.  He attacks with his best weapons.  And he varies the pace.  

For the love of God, though, can we come up with a play on 3rd or 4th and 1 or less that doesn't involve Burrow sneaking the ball.  Gets pushed back every time.  I would rather go empty with Mixon taking a direct snap and having one more player defenses have to account for as a true running threat or blocking.  

Above is how adults counter a point

Below is how a child counters a point

(10-13-2021, 08:24 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I'm sure all the other NFL teams are not going to worry about Chase (top 10 in receiving yards, TDs, and yds/reception), Burrow (top 10 in passer rating and TDs), or Higgins (1000+ yds in 17 starts) because they are "just kids".

The TDs they score are not worth as many points as the ones scored by "grown ups" in the NFL, right?

See the difference?

(10-13-2021, 11:46 AM)fredtoast Wrote: If you don't want people criticizing your comments then don't post them on a message board.

I'm still trying to figure out how "college talent" gets a player ranked in the top 10 in the NFL.

I enjoy discussing points/counterpoints and a message board with grown ups. If I want to have a trival conversation with a child; I'll make like Urban Meyers and go "visit the grandkids"

[WeezyBengal]

(10-12-2021, 11:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I get a kick out of a lot of people here who are constantly criticizing NFL coaches play calling and schemes.  95% of these fans could not tell you what type of scheme the opponent was running or how many different ways the Bengals have to block a running play or how many different route combinations the Bengals have in their playbook.

However, at the same time I may not be an engineer, but when I see a bridge falling apart I know something is wrong.

And that is kind of the way I feel about our offense right now.  I am not going to list the things I think the Bengals should change because I don't feel I am qualified.  But we have too much talent and things just never seem to run smoothly.  Our O-line is not great, but it is good enough to get better production than we are.

In another thread I started a while back I discussed how difficult it is to decide how much blame goes to the players and how much to the coaches.  One of the things I mentioned was third-down and red-zone possessions.  So far the Bengals have great in the red zone. Scoring a TD 80% of the time is third best in the league, but a very small sample size (8 of 10).  They are 23rd in third down conversion percentage (37.3), and 31st in third and short (1-2 yds)

Our offense is 28th in "drive success rate" (drive with at least one first down or td).  Way too many "three-and-outs".

Our O-line has not been real good, but pass protection has been decent. If we can't get push on third-and-short then we should just start passing on all those situations.  You don't need pass blocking to complete a 3-4 yard pass.  So far the Bengals have thrown on 43% of their third-and-short plays which is about exactly the same as the league average (41%).  The Steelers currently lead the league by throwing on 75% of their third-and-short plays and they have the league's third highest conversion percentage (83.3).  The Falcons throw on 64% of their third-and-short plays and have the 9th best conversion percentage (71.4).

I may not be able to see the fine details that need fixing, but our offense is underperforming for the talent we have.

Football isn't that complicated - it really isn't. I think there's a TON of guys out there on social media and on the internet (PFF, Joe Goodberry, Kurt Warner's QB videos each week, Tony Pike, etc) that have credibility and do an EXCELLENT job of breaking down film from the games and critique it. 

I lean on those guys, watch their content, and learn to form my own opinion about how our team is playing. Many if not all of them share our same sentiments about how this offense is playing and how the play calling is going. 

[jj22]

(10-13-2021, 11:23 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Yep, you're sort of reading that right. New Head Coaches, like players improve over time. You could have a HC go 0-16 his first year, 3-13 his second year, then go to the Super Bowl in his 3rd year, and by your logic he would still be a bad coach because he went 3-29 his first two years, even if he coaches brilliantly in the 3rd year. This league has always been a "what have you done for me lately" league, and what you did last year doesn't mean squat. The only thing I care about is how a coach is doing this year. So far, Taylor is winning. Now let's see if it lasts. 

I'll just say most coaches don't get to rebound from 2 bad years. If ZT does it'll be a lesson for all Owners (and fanbases, although it's asking a lot of faith from us) on patience and building a program. 

I agree tho, we will forget his rough first 2 years if he improves. I don't think we'll forget this soon tho. Even with a winning record so far this season.

[WeezyBengal]

(10-12-2021, 11:38 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The O has college talent.

We have 3 players that have done anything of merit in the NFL:

Riley Reiff
Tyler Boyd
Joe "I'm hurt" Mixon

The rest are kids or journeymen

College talent? We have a QB who is 6th in passer rating, a wide receiver who is 6th in yards, and another guy who had close to 1,000 yards his rookie year. So you're saying age correlates success? 

Such a bad take. 

[Joelist]

(10-13-2021, 02:57 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Football isn't that complicated - it really isn't. I think there's a TON of guys out there on social media and on the internet (PFF, Joe Goodberry, Kurt Warner's QB videos each week, Tony Pike, etc) that have credibility and do an EXCELLENT job of breaking down film from the games and critique it. 

I lean on those guys, watch their content, and learn to form my own opinion about how our team is playing. Many if not all of them share our same sentiments about how this offense is playing and how the play calling is going. 

And these sources are all saying what some of us here have been saying - the offense has design issues and situational football issues. They all noted how we tend to just line up and expect everyone to win their 1-1 battles or at least not lose them. That we do nothing to burn aggressive pass rushing (and sorry the one example of a jailbreak screen for 5 games is not evidence enough). That we don't use designed rollouts and that Joe tends to drop back to the exact same spot and not move in the pocket a lot. 

Where are the draws, the traps? How about actually practicing screens till they get them right? Drilling our backs on pass blocking as long as it takes for them to start at least being competent (I suspect if we still had Gio probably 5 of the sacks this year don't happen)? Using different looks with the receivers to prevent secondaries from sitting on our routes? What does all this stuff do? It slows down rushes a bit and gets the defense thinking instead of just pinning their ears back and going. 

[*bfine32*]

(10-13-2021, 03:06 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: College talent? We have a QB who is 6th in passer rating, a wide receiver who is 6th in yards, and another guy who had close to 1,000 yards his rookie year. So you're saying age correlates success? 

Such a bad take. 

No, I'm saying experience does. It's been made known that we brought in folks who "know who to win" and the VAST majority of them are on Defense. In the 3 years Zac has been HC we have drafted nothing but Offense in the first 2 rounds.

College talent is not meant to be a slur; it simply used to indicate they have no skins in the NFL yet. You mention Chase and Joe being top 6, do you ever think they'll be top 3? I do and it will come with experience. 

[NUGDUKWE]

(10-12-2021, 11:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I get a kick out of a lot of people here who are constantly criticizing NFL coaches play calling and schemes.  95% of these fans could not tell you what type of scheme the opponent was running or how many different ways the Bengals have to block a running play or how many different route combinations the Bengals have in their playbook.

However, at the same time I may not be an engineer, but when I see a bridge falling apart I know something is wrong.

And that is kind of the way I feel about our offense right now.  I am not going to list the things I think the Bengals should change because I don't feel I am qualified.  But we have too much talent and things just never seem to run smoothly.  Our O-line is not great, but it is good enough to get better production than we are.

In another thread I started a while back I discussed how difficult it is to decide how much blame goes to the players and how much to the coaches.  One of the things I mentioned was third-down and red-zone possessions.  So far the Bengals have great in the red zone. Scoring a TD 80% of the time is third best in the league, but a very small sample size (8 of 10).  They are 23rd in third down conversion percentage (37.3), and 31st in third and short (1-2 yds)

Our offense is 28th in "drive success rate" (drive with at least one first down or td).  Way too many "three-and-outs".

Our O-line has not been real good, but pass protection has been decent. If we can't get push on third-and-short then we should just start passing on all those situations.  You don't need pass blocking to complete a 3-4 yard pass.  So far the Bengals have thrown on 43% of their third-and-short plays which is about exactly the same as the league average (41%).  The Steelers currently lead the league by throwing on 75% of their third-and-short plays and they have the league's third highest conversion percentage (83.3).  The Falcons throw on 64% of their third-and-short plays and have the 9th best conversion percentage (71.4).

I may not be able to see the fine details that need fixing, but our offense is underperforming for the talent we have.

This is a good point. I have blamed play calling in the past and certainly since Taylor took over. I don't really know what the issues are I just know like you said that we just have too much talent to struggle as bad as we do at times and something just seems wrong. I blame Taylor because it seems to be a common theme with his time here he's certainly had his flashes but it just hasn't been anywhere near consistent. 

[Tony]

(10-12-2021, 11:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I get a kick out of a lot of people here who are constantly criticizing NFL coaches play calling and schemes.  95% of these fans could not tell you what type of scheme the opponent was running or how many different ways the Bengals have to block a running play or how many different route combinations the Bengals have in their playbook.

However, at the same time I may not be an engineer, but when I see a bridge falling apart I know something is wrong.

And that is kind of the way I feel about our offense right now.  I am not going to list the things I think the Bengals should change because I don't feel I am qualified.  But we have too much talent and things just never seem to run smoothly.  Our O-line is not great, but it is good enough to get better production than we are.

In another thread I started a while back I discussed how difficult it is to decide how much blame goes to the players and how much to the coaches.  One of the things I mentioned was third-down and red-zone possessions.  So far the Bengals have great in the red zone. Scoring a TD 80% of the time is third best in the league, but a very small sample size (8 of 10).  They are 23rd in third down conversion percentage (37.3), and 31st in third and short (1-2 yds)

Our offense is 28th in "drive success rate" (drive with at least one first down or td).  Way too many "three-and-outs".

Our O-line has not been real good, but pass protection has been decent. If we can't get push on third-and-short then we should just start passing on all those situations.  You don't need pass blocking to complete a 3-4 yard pass.  So far the Bengals have thrown on 43% of their third-and-short plays which is about exactly the same as the league average (41%).  The Steelers currently lead the league by throwing on 75% of their third-and-short plays and they have the league's third highest conversion percentage (83.3).  The Falcons throw on 64% of their third-and-short plays and have the 9th best conversion percentage (71.4).

I may not be able to see the fine details that need fixing, but our offense is underperforming for the talent we have.

Isn't the whole point of the forum to talk about these things? It wouldnt be very fun if we all just said, "I'm not qualified".. What would there be to talk about?

[NUGDUKWE]

(10-12-2021, 11:35 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Situational play calling. Zac is terrible at it right now. Inconsistency; saying "that's how we are going to be", when he goes for it on 4th down on his own 30, then calls a run play on 3rd and 5 to get a couple yards closer for a long FG. 

This is probably the real problem with Zac Taylor. We could easily be 5-0 right now but instead with Zac were 3-2 and should probably be 2-3. We can hope he learns as the season goes but if he doesn't with the way the defense is playing this will truly be a wasted season. This being his 3rd season I'm not optimistic.

[Tony]

(10-13-2021, 07:40 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: This is probably the real problem with Zac Taylor. We could easily be 5-0 right now but instead with Zac were 3-2 and should probably be 2-3. We can hope he learns as the season goes but if he doesn't with the way the defense is playing this will truly be a wasted season. This being his 3rd season I'm not optimistic.

Agree 100%... Without the coaching fails this team is 5-0 easily...

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-13-2021, 07:40 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: This is probably the real problem with Zac Taylor. We could easily be 5-0 right now but instead with Zac were 3-2 and should probably be 2-3. We can hope he learns as the season goes but if he doesn't with the way the defense is playing this will truly be a wasted season. This being his 3rd season I'm not optimistic.

He seems like a smart enough guy, for what that's worth. One thing that's not smart is tuning everyone else out and sticking to your plan (hello Mike Brown). Hopefully, even if it's in private, he reads the stuff that's out there and at least takes it into consideration. 

I'm not talking about facebook or message boards or the such. I mean, people who analyze and have played the game, critiquing the offensive plan. I know he's an analytics guy, so hopefully he does.

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-13-2021, 07:59 PM)Tony Wrote: Agree 100%... Without the coaching fails this team is 5-0 easily...

Yep. With how the defense has played, a better offensive guy could have them at 5-0, as thin as that would be, it's still better than 3-2. 

[BengalsRocker]

Zac, Joe B, O-line, and others not executing.

That's it in a nutshell even if it's simplistic.

Not all on Zac but he's not an impressive OC either.  So mean.

[Destro]

https://stripehype.com/2021/10/12/cincinnati-bengals-zac-taylor-holding-back/

Fire Zac Taylor.

[samhain]

I don't know what it is either. When the season started, I figured the playcalling was janky because they were coddling Burrow after the injury. That's pretty much out the door now with him flinging himself into defenders waiting to slam his head on the turf and following that up with making tackles like a free safety after interceptions. There's zero reason to restrict anything anymore. I'm glad he's full-go, but it's also frustrating. If this is this offense at full power, then it's a letdown. People can peg the lack of premier TE, but I think that's pretty ridiculous. You can't have world beaters at every skill position, and we're fortunate to have as many as we do now. It should be more than enough to establish an identity.

We've seen just one elite offense if you want to call the Packers that. They have an all-time great quarterback and arguably the best WR in the league, but the rest of their receiver depth is pretty weak. They do have a great pair of backs. The bengals are hanging in there with and beating teams that they can hold under 30. I don't like their or anyone else's chances at holding LA or Cleveland, maybe even Baltimore to that total. This team will get it's doors blown off against an offense that's healthy and has it's shit together if they can't figure out a way to put up 30.

The back end of this schedule is really nasty. I hope that what we're seeing now is just working out some bugs. We won't have to worry about Zac's play calling anymore if this season goes the way of 2018, ie into the toilet after a promising start.