Zac Taylor vs Marvin Lewis

[Shake n Blake]

So one of the biggest reasons people gave for defending Marv through the years was that Marv was great at building rosters. Seeing how this team is loaded with talent and pretty much every player we've picked up (be it draft or free agency) has been a home run, do we attribute that to Zac and the current staff?

Or do we credit Tobin for rebuilding this team for a 3rd time (2001-2003, 2010-2013, 2019-2021)?

I ask because if Zac had a major role in shaping this roster, he has a much stronger case for another year, even if we go 0-3 down the stretch. If you think it was mainly Tobin, and the talented roster pretty much carried Zac to where we're at, I'd say the last 3 games should weigh heavily on whether we continue on with Zac.

Thoughts?

[Interceptor]

I'll reserve judgement until after Zac's first playoff game.

[leonardfan40]

Zac, Lou and staff deserve a ton of credit for the good FA signing and drafting. You don’t hit on this many guys this quickly without the coaches being very involved in the selection process, knowing what they want and what they want to do. Duke definitely deserves credit as well and has done a great job adjusting to new coaches with different systems and traits they look for in new players.

Awuzie was bashed in Dallas. Apple was full on bust. Giants gave us Hill for Billy Price. Hendrickson was looked at as a one year wonder, benefiting off the other good linemen he played with. Von Bell has quietly been a great pickup. Reader and Larry have not disappointed. Spain is another steal. Hitting on this many FA’s is not common. Even Billy B misses on more than we have these last few years.

Burrow and Chase have looked like studs since day one (can’t say the same for a lot of first round QB’s). Wilson great value, franchise kicker in McPherson, etc.

Our backup LB’s like Bachie and Bailey look better when forced into action than our starting LB’s have in years.

[*jason*]

(12-22-2021, 08:58 PM)leonardfan40 Wrote: Zac, Lou and staff deserve a ton of credit for the good FA signing and drafting. You don’t hit on this many guys this quickly without the coaches being very involved in the selection process, knowing what they want and what they want to do. Duke definitely deserves credit as well and has done a great job adjusting to new coaches with different systems and traits they look for in new players.

Awuzie was bashed in Dallas. Apple was full on bust. Giants gave us Hill for Billy Price. Hendrickson was looked at as a one year wonder, benefiting off the other good linemen he played with. Von Bell has quietly been a great pickup. Reader and Larry have not disappointed. Spain is another steal. Hitting on this many FA’s is not common. Even Billy B misses on more than we have these last few years.

Burrow and Chase have looked like studs since day one (can’t say the same for a lot of first round QB’s). Wilson great value, franchise kicker in McPherson, etc.

Our backup LB’s like Bachie and Bailey look better when forced into action than our starting LB’s have in years.

Fair enough... But you also don't hit on many FA signings when you only get a coupla over the hill, and bargain bin free agents to work with. No objective observer can claim that Marvin ever got this much help in free agency.

[schroomytunes]

Marvin brought us credability but he was too soft as a coach, no accountability. I like Zac for the most part I give him a B- so far. The owners have opened up their wallets for him, and other than the 2019 draft I think they've drafted very well!!! They are targeting the right players both in the draft and through FA, but I think next year should be no exceptions on playoff wins!!

[basballguy]

(12-22-2021, 08:58 PM)leonardfan40 Wrote: Awuzie was bashed in Dallas. Apple was full on bust. 

Replying just to this but i'm not sure where you saw the Auzie bashing....local sentiment always was "he won't win us games but he won't cost us games".

I think Auzie is playing slightly better than he did in Dallas so far...which is great.  I do believe this was a good signing by the front office.

I think Apple is still bust, but that's just my opinion until he actually starts making plays and tackling correctly.  

[Big_Ern]

(12-22-2021, 08:41 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: So one of the biggest reasons people gave for defending Marv through the years was that Marv was great at building rosters. Seeing how this team is loaded with talent and pretty much every player we've picked up (be it draft or free agency) has been a home run, do we attribute that to Zac and the current staff?

Or do we credit Tobin for rebuilding this team for a 3rd time (2001-2003, 2010-2013, 2019-2021)?

I ask because if Zac had a major role in shaping this roster, he has a much stronger case for another year, even if we go 0-3 down the stretch. If you think it was mainly Tobin, and the talented roster pretty much carried Zac to where we're at, I'd say the last 3 games should weigh heavily on whether we continue on with Zac.

Thoughts?

Marvin did put together some really talented rosters but they always overlooked character for talent. Zac seemed to be pretty specific that they want high character, leader/captain type guys and I think that is starting to pay dividends. Hopefully it translates to more success than Marvin had but we'll see. Agree last 3 games will be a factor but I'm pretty sure Zac will be here either way. 

[Whacked]

(12-22-2021, 09:25 PM)basballguy Wrote: I think Apple is still bust, but that's just my opinion until he actually starts making plays and tackling correctly.  

Yup. Apple is mediocre at best. Dude makes us vulnerable. Can’t believe teams haven’t figured out to pick on him more. lol.

[jfkbengals]

It's always been Tobin, but the structure plays a part as well.

Regardless of who the HC is, he has to relay his needs for the system to Tobin.

Both Taylor and Lewis did a great job of that, which is how those rosters get built.

[leonardfan40]

(12-22-2021, 09:16 PM)jason Wrote: Fair enough... But you also don't hit on many FA signings when you only get a coupla over the hill, and bargain bin free agents to work with. No objective observer can claim that Marvin ever got this much help in free agency.

No he certainly didn’t, but he did have some swings and misses on decent contracts as well (Coles and Bryant off the top of my head). Definitely had some hits as well.

I do think it’s fair to question why Marvin didn’t get more FA’s though. Zac has used FA plenty. Maybe Marvin was part of the reason we never went big in FA because the draft only way was his way too? Maybe he just didn’t push Mike enough on the subject. Either way, Zac came in and used FA and has been very successful so far. A complete 180 from what we had been doing.

Maybe Marvin should have done a better job convincing or demanding FA additions, if he wanted them at all. If he really wanted to use FA why’d he stick around 16 years if his owner wouldn’t let him. Could have left way before and maybe saved his career if he found a better owner.

People can credit this to the Blackburns all they want, but Troy certainly sounded like Mike not too long ago and they are the same family. Mike is still the owner.

[leonardfan40]

(12-22-2021, 09:25 PM)basballguy Wrote: Replying just to this but i'm not sure where you saw the Auzie bashing....local sentiment always was "he won't win us games but he won't cost us games".

I think Auzie is playing slightly better than he did in Dallas so far...which is great.  I do believe this was a good signing by the front office.

I think Apple is still bust, but that's just my opinion until he actually starts making plays and tackling correctly.  

From a couple fans here in Ohio and all over the comments online when we signed him. Actually had someone laugh when they heard we signed him to this contract. Looking back now that contract seems like a steal.

Apple had a rough start here but has been playing much better the last month or 2 as he gets more experience in the system. Certainly playing better right now than his contract costs us. If he keeps it up he’ll be a steal of a signing at years end when his one year deal is up.

[Soonerpeace]

(12-22-2021, 09:46 PM)jfkbengals Wrote: It's always been Tobin, but the structure plays a part as well.

Regardless of who the HC is, he has to relay his needs for the system to Tobin.

Both Taylor and Lewis did a great job of that, which is how those rosters get built.

Actually the scouting department does the initial work. Zac has given specific instructions he wants captains and leaders whether a FA or Draftee. He also wants players from top college teams. Mike Brown is involved in the first couple. It’s a 3 man vote but Zac usually gets the final decision but the other coaches have input as well. But make no mistake Zac had a specific plan in drafting and FA and it’s what helped get him the job. Zac will probably get a raise and extension. If the team goes 0-3 maybe just another year to observe. They see the building of this team as just beginning. Next year I expect a huge emphasis on OL. They know they’ve still got holes. Duke Tobin is great. He works with his coaches and there’s no power struggle like so many other teams. But make no mistake Duke was in charge when this roster tanked. Zac unlike Marvin is more involved


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[Clark W Griswold]

Doesn’t matter what happens over the last 3 games Zac is coming back next year. Like it or not he is not in danger of losing his job. Bengals hate firing coaches and they have finally seen big progress on the field so why would they cut him now and start over next year?
Even the biggest Zac haters have to admit that bringing him back is the right move. If they regress in 2022 then you can let him go but hopefully the hard part is over.

[CarolinaBengalFanGuy]

(12-22-2021, 08:41 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: So one of the biggest reasons people gave for defending Marv through the years was that Marv was great at building rosters. Seeing how this team is loaded with talent and pretty much every player we've picked up (be it draft or free agency) has been a home run, do we attribute that to Zac and the current staff?

Or do we credit Tobin for rebuilding this team for a 3rd time (2001-2003, 2010-2013, 2019-2021)?

I ask because if Zac had a major role in shaping this roster, he has a much stronger case for another year, even if we go 0-3 down the stretch. If you think it was mainly Tobin, and the talented roster pretty much carried Zac to where we're at, I'd say the last 3 games should weigh heavily on whether we continue on with Zac.

Thoughts?

He’s still got another year on his current contract right? I expect an extension if we win the division and/or make the playoffs. I expect him to finish his contract year even if he loses the last 3 games at this point.

Having some actual success and improving in the W/L area on top of the players loving him will give him minimum another season in Cincinnati.

[*jason*]

(12-22-2021, 10:01 PM)leonardfan40 Wrote: No he certainly didn’t, but he did have some swings and misses on decent contracts as well (Coles and Bryant off the top of my head). Definitely had some hits as well.

I do think it’s fair to question why Marvin didn’t get more FA’s though. Zac has used FA plenty. Maybe Marvin was part of the reason we never went big in FA because the draft only way was his way too? Maybe he just didn’t push Mike enough on the subject. Either way, Zac came in and used FA and has been very successful so far. A complete 180 from what we had been doing.

Maybe Marvin should have done a better job convincing or demanding FA additions, if he wanted them at all. If he really wanted to use FA why’d he stick around 16 years if his owner wouldn’t let him. Could have left way before and maybe saved his career if he found a better owner.

People can credit this to the Blackburns all they want, but Troy certainly sounded like Mike not too long ago and they are the same family. Mike is still the owner.

That's the other thing. None of us know who does what, and who calls what shots around the organization. Duke Tobin reminds me a quote from one of the consultants named Bob in the movie Office Space... "What is it?... Ya do here?".

All in all, I don't care. I'm happy they're competitive and entertaining again. I miss playoff football.

[*pally*]

(12-22-2021, 10:49 PM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: He’s still got another year on his current contract right? I expect an extension if we win the division and/or make the playoffs. I expect him to finish his contract year even if he loses the last 3 games at this point.

Having some actual success and improving in the W/L area on top of the players loving him will give him minimum another season in Cincinnati.

No one actually knows for sure when his contract expires.  The length and other details of the contract has never been disclosed

[Bengal Dude]

(12-22-2021, 11:52 PM)jason Wrote: That's the other thing. None of us know who does what, and who calls what shots around the organization. Duke Tobin reminds me a quote from one of the consultants named Bob in the movie Office Space... "What is it?... Ya do here?".

All in all, I don't care. I'm happy they're competitive and entertaining again. I miss playoff football.

I know Duke is the mastermind of the draft day trades. That's been reported since 2004 when we traded down for Perry. 

[Shake n Blake]

(12-22-2021, 11:52 PM)jason Wrote: That's the other thing. None of us know who does what, and who calls what shots around the organization. Duke Tobin reminds me a quote from one of the consultants named Bob in the movie Office Space... "What is it?... Ya do here?".

All in all, I don't care. I'm happy they're competitive and entertaining again. I miss playoff football.

I read a .com article once a few years ago that painted him as the de facto "GM".

It really made it seem like he had a lot of power, and he's the one putting the draft boards together and recommending players with input from coaches.

[J24]

The GM and Coach have to be on the same page for things to work out. So yeah  you have to give significant credit to Zac for this year's turnaround. Also I would sign him to an extension this off-season to keep him around for a couple more years.

[J24]

(12-23-2021, 02:31 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I read a .com article once a few years ago that painted him as the de facto "GM".

It really made it seem like he had a lot of power, and he's the one putting the draft boards together and recommending players with input from coaches.

He has been the defacto GM for a while now according to people in the know. The dudes had a couple of chances to leave the Bengals and he never did. (Detroit was very interested in him in the mid teens)

I'm not sure this as anything to do with this thread but John Sheean from Cincy Jungle talked about how there are way more Scouts in organization than the Bengals website claims. Thought it was interesting nugget since we're talking about the front office.