Is Eli Apple The Starting CB?

[samhain]

Apple gets roasted by a lot of people that aren't fans of the team. He's a league-wide meme generator, mainly because he talks a lot of shit on social media.

I really don't care about that sort of thing. He's effective enough that I don't view him as a major liability, and to be fair, Awuzie got some flak from talking heads outside of Cincinnati.

For what they are paying, Apple is a bargain. He has the physical tools to get the job done if he's healthy and invested.

As others have mentioned, even the best corners will get roasted by top-end receivers in the modern NFL. The rules are set up to let passing offenses thrive. Ramsey is making stupid money and Ja'marr made him look silly. Ramsey would have had a long week in the national media if Burrow had any time to get him the ball on the routes that Ja'marr was abusing him on all night. If I'm building a team and have to decide where to invest big money, corner might be a place that I settle for capable and low-cost over what the league and media considers elite players that will still get destroyed by good receivers every time. The premium for defensive backs just does not offer the kind of return on investment that you'd hope for.

If I'm allocating resources to improve a pass defense, I'm paying and drafting high on the DL. Get guys that can dominate at the line of scrimmage. The secondary's job will be much easier by default if the quarterback is under duress and your defense can get by without expensive talent on the back end.

[basballguy]

(04-08-2022, 02:06 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: You must not have watched a majority of the games last year.

People also tend to forget he's the guy that made the play that got us to the AFC Title game.

How are you gonna accuse someone of not watching every game and then call out a play that happened after a sequence of plays where Eli Apple was arguably in his worst stretch the entire playoffs (as if you didn't see it?)  

Seems like you might be the person not watching the games.  

[basballguy]

(04-10-2022, 10:49 AM)samhain Wrote: Apple gets roasted by a lot of people that aren't fans of the team.  He's a league-wide meme generator, mainly because he talks a lot of shit on social media.  

Ughhhhh

He gets roasted because he is a first round bust.  The twitter shit is just extra.  

Eli Apple played football in the NFL before he came to Cincinnati....I know it's hard for some people to believe.  Eli Apple was probably the worst CB in the NFL in his time with NYG and New Orleans.  He was like Jimmy Smith bad.  

He was definitely better last year than any of his previous years (still bad in my unpopular opinion) but I think Bates and Bell bailed him out a ton.  

Eli Apple does not play smart football.  Eli Apple has tremendous athletic ability and he uses that to compensate for his poor play.  The moment he loses a beat on his speed, he's done in the NFL.  

[samhain]

(04-10-2022, 06:09 PM)basballguy Wrote: Ughhhhh

He gets roasted because he is a first round bust.  The twitter shit is just extra.  

Eli Apple played football in the NFL before he came to Cincinnati....I know it's hard for some people to believe.  Eli Apple was probably the worst CB in the NFL in his time with NYG and New Orleans.  He was like Jimmy Smith bad.  

He was definitely better last year than any of his previous years (still bad in my unpopular opinion) but I think Bates and Bell bailed him out a ton.  

Eli Apple does not play smart football.  Eli Apple has tremendous athletic ability and he uses that to compensate for his poor play.  The moment he loses a beat on his speed, he's done in the NFL.  

I really don't care one iota what he did in New Orleans or New York.  it's pretty irrelevant at this point.  He held things down well enough to keep a very expensive player on the bench last year.

If Bates and Bell are bailing everyone out, then why didn't they bail Sims or Phillips out last year?  

Like it or not, tremendous athletic ability counts for a whole lot in the NFL, and guys like that with length and speed will always get second chances from coaches that think they can fix them.  

He's not a superstar, but for 4 mil, I'l take what he gives them.

[*bengalfan74*]

(04-10-2022, 07:38 PM)samhain Wrote: I really don't care one iota what he did in New Orleans or New York.  it's pretty irrelevant at this point.  He held things down well enough to keep a very expensive player on the bench last year.

If Bates and Bell are bailing everyone out, then why didn't they bail Sims or Phillips out last year?  

Like it or not, tremendous athletic ability counts for a whole lot in the NFL, and guys like that with length and speed will always get second chances from coaches that think they can fix them.  

He's not a superstar, but for 4 mil, I'l take what he gives them.

Yep

Who gives a crap if he kicked over an ant hill when he was 7 ?

[KillerGoose]

(04-10-2022, 06:09 PM)basballguy Wrote: Eli Apple played football in the NFL before he came to Cincinnati....I know it's hard for some people to believe.  Eli Apple was probably the worst CB in the NFL in his time with NYG and New Orleans.  He was like Jimmy Smith bad.  

Man, you are just grossly overrating how bad he was. What the hell do you have against the guy? Lol this is so bizarre. In 2018, he allowed a passer rating of 74 (36th in the league) on passes that came his way. This was on 118 targets. QBs had a completion percentage of 48% when throwing at him. In 2019, that passer rating was 100.9 (173rd out of 263). There is no rating data for 2017 and 2016. 

If you're a PFF fan, from 2016 to 2020 his average grade was 61.74. This past season, he graded out at 60.9. The dude has never been anywhere near the worst CB in the league. Then you say Jimmy Smith is bad? I'm fairly convinced you're just goofing around for jokes. Jimmy Smith is a straight up good corner. Lol. In 2018, Smith allowed a passer rating of 73. In 2019, he allowed a passer rating of 67. In 2020, he allowed a passer rating of 57. Jimmy Smith has been bad in the sense of health. He hasn't played a full season in years. He also hasn't allowed a touchdown pass since 2018. 

[basballguy]

(04-10-2022, 07:52 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Man, you are just grossly overrating how bad he was. What the hell do you have against the guy? Lol this is so bizarre. In 2018, he allowed a passer rating of 74 (36th in the league) on passes that came his way. This was on 118 targets. QBs had a completion percentage of 48% when throwing at him. In 2019, that passer rating was 100.9 (173rd out of 263). There is no rating data for 2017 and 2016. 

If you're a PFF fan, from 2016 to 2020 his average grade was 61.74. This past season, he graded out at 60.9. The dude has never been anywhere near the worst CB in the league. Then you say Jimmy Smith is bad? I'm fairly convinced you're just goofing around for jokes. Jimmy Smith is a straight up good corner. Lol. In 2018, Smith allowed a passer rating of 73. In 2019, he allowed a passer rating of 67. In 2020, he allowed a passer rating of 57. Jimmy Smith has been bad in the sense of health. He hasn't played a full season in years. He also hasn't allowed a touchdown pass since 2018. 

Grossly overrating how bad he was?  He was so bad the Giants traded him barely half way through his rookie contract.  He was so bad the Saints wanted nothing to do with him when his contract expired.  He was so bad the Panthers didn't even want to keep him on the roster in 2020 and cut him early.  Quote all the stats you want, but if he was good he wouldn't be on his 4th team in 6 or 7 years.  

Here's the best way I can describe it.  Eli Apple is a tremendous athlete...there's no dispute there.  However, if there was a stat for bonehead plays, then he'd be in contention for leading the league (my opinion only).  

Yes Eli makes plays every now and then just like every other NFL player.  But his bonehead plays far exceed the plays we praise.  

Nobody wants to talk about the TD Eli gave up before he made that game saving tackle vs the Chiefs. The entire team is in man coverage and Apple is 5 yards deep in the endzone while his man is in motion 10 yards away from him.  Never even had a chance to make a play because he was so far behind him.  Moments like that make me think "WTF Eli?"   

"Eli Apple made that tackle that saved the game!"  Absolutely....he made a wonderful arm tackle on a poorly ran route.  Let's give him a medal for learning from his mistake the previous TD and actually staying with his man in motion this time around.

I know what we get with Eli....we get a budget player that will show flashes of greatness he never achieved but usually play mediocre at best.  His contract last year reflected that.  This year it shows the Bengals are hoping he plays better than mediocre...hopefully he does.  I honestly want him to play great.  I don't expect it though.  

As for Jimmy Smith, I guess you just would've had to watch him play.  Or ask Ravens fans?  He was wonderfully awful when he was a starter.  I don't subscribe to PFF anymore but I suggest (if you do) then go back and look at ratings from like 2010-2015.  Jimmy Smith was a champion at being terrible in PFF ratings...however I think PFF was harder on him than anyone else ever was.  I'm not sure any of the data points you cited now matter since he's not a starter anymore.  

[*rfaulk34*]

(04-10-2022, 09:10 PM)basballguy Wrote: As for Jimmy Smith, I guess you just would've had to watch him play.  Or ask Ravens fans?  He was wonderfully awful when he was a starter.  I don't subscribe to PFF anymore but I suggest (if you do) then go back and look at ratings from like 2010-2015.  Jimmy Smith was a champion at being terrible in PFF ratings...however I think PFF was harder on him than anyone else ever was.  I'm not sure any of the data points you cited now matter since he's not a starter anymore.  

8 out of 11 years he was average to above and never gave up a passer rating against greater than 94.0

He only gave up a passer rating of 90+ in 2 years. His average is 75.2

17 TDs and 15ints. 56.8 comp%.

[basballguy]

(04-10-2022, 09:27 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: 8 out of 11 years he was average to above and never gave up a passer rating against greater than 94.0

He only gave up a passer rating of 90+ in 2 years. His average is 75.2

17 TDs and 15ints. 56.8 comp%.

Maybe my memory is distorted then.  I was highly confident PFF had him rated at literally the very bottom of their DB list for a good several years.  

[Hammerstripes]

(04-10-2022, 06:02 PM)basballguy Wrote: How are you gonna accuse someone of not watching every game and then call out a play that happened after a sequence of plays where Eli Apple was arguably in his worst stretch the entire playoffs (as if you didn't see it?)  

Seems like you might be the person not watching the games.  

Nope, I'll stand by my comment.  The guy said that until Apple is replaced, someone is always open.  That's simply not the case.  Apple played very well here once he got settled in.  He wasn't a liability the 2nd half of the year.

[KillerGoose]

Quote:Quote all the stats you want, but if he was good he wouldn't be on his 4th team in 6 or 7 years.  

Well, there's a reason why I haven't said he was good. Your claim was that he was arguably the worst CB in the league prior to coming to Cincinnati. That is where you're grossly overrating how bad he was. From his Saints tenure on, Apple has been an okay corner. He wasn't great in NY, but he also wasn't as bad as fans would have you believe. He wasn't the worst CB in the league, not even close. 

Quote:Nobody wants to talk about the TD Eli gave up before he made that game saving tackle vs the Chiefs. The entire team is in man coverage and Apple is 5 yards deep in the endzone while his man is in motion 10 yards away from him.  Never even had a chance to make a play because he was so far behind him.  Moments like that make me think "WTF Eli?"   

Yes, he was deep because that is what he was supposed to do. He does the same thing against Hill at the end of the half. When he follows the motion, he follows deep. The Chiefs called a great play to beat it, but Hardman ran a better route than Hill did. He was able to get flatter. Apple followed the call, so if anything, take up beef with Lou. On motion, he has to run around the defense. This forces him deep.

Quote:As for Jimmy Smith, I guess you just would've had to watch him play.  Or ask Ravens fans?  He was wonderfully awful when he was a starter.  I don't subscribe to PFF anymore but I suggest (if you do) then go back and look at ratings from like 2010-2015.  Jimmy Smith was a champion at being terrible in PFF ratings...however I think PFF was harder on him than anyone else ever was.  I'm not sure any of the data points you cited now matter since he's not a starter anymore.  

Yeah, I'm not even sure where to begin with this one. You have no idea what you're talking about, man. Everything you said here is wrong. Jimmy Smith from 2011-2015 (he was drafted in 2011) had an average rating of 67 with a peak of 81.4 in 2013. Ask Ravens fans? Here is a post from the Ravens subreddit where they are voting on whether or not to induct him into the Ring of Honor. I did watch the guy play, I'm a Bengals fan for Christ's sake lol. He was still a starter as of 2020 but is slipping down the depth chart as he ages (33) and injuries pile up. He hasn't played a full season since 2015. 

Your hate boner for Apple is bizarre. You seem like you're just going to bury your head in the sand and refuse to listen to anything else. Eli played good football in 2018. He was pretty bleh in 2019 and didn't play much in 2020. He played fine football here in Cincinnati, and was good over the last half of the season. That's the reality of it all. Not sure what to say, here's to a good 2022 season. Lol.

[*rfaulk34*]

(04-10-2022, 09:32 PM)basballguy Wrote: Maybe my memory is distorted then.  I was highly confident PFF had him rated at literally the very bottom of their DB list for a good several years.  

Oh, you're not alone. It's easy to form an opinion on someone based on a small sample size (say, things you see--or things people say), or to even mis-remember things that you're "sure" of. We are all guilty of it. 

No worries. 

[XenoMorph]

Dont care what Apple did prior to being here.. He played well enough here to be brough back and keep some playing time. And if someone beats him for time on the field we are all the better for it.

[Au165]

(04-10-2022, 09:10 PM)basballguy Wrote: Grossly overrating how bad he was?  He was so bad the Giants traded him barely half way through his rookie contract.  He was so bad the Saints wanted nothing to do with him when his contract expired.  He was so bad the Panthers didn't even want to keep him on the roster in 2020 and cut him early.  Quote all the stats you want, but if he was good he wouldn't be on his 4th team in 6 or 7 years.  

Tyrann Mathieu is also about to be on his 4th team in 6 or 7 years. It is not unusual for guys to bounce around until they find the right schematic fit. Rasul Douglas for example just got a long term extension with the Packers after a great year. The guy was a spot starter for injuries in Philadelphia and Carolina for 5 years before landing in GB and being forced into a starting role yet again by injuries but being really good during that stint.

Quote:Nobody wants to talk about the TD Eli gave up before he made that game saving tackle vs the Chiefs. The entire team is in man coverage and Apple is 5 yards deep in the endzone while his man is in motion 10 yards away from him.  Never even had a chance to make a play because he was so far behind him.  Moments like that make me think "WTF Eli?"   

As Goose explains above, it was simply a case of the speed of Hardman and defense we were in. When you are in man and a WR motions you are supposed to take an over path as you never cross in front of other defenders otherwise you create a pick play for the defense. Usually outside the deep redzone it isn't an issue, but in the deep redzone it is tough because the cushion that is generated by the motion is usually enough to get what you need. There is a reason motion goes up in the redzone, it is also why you see what are called speed returns where a guy motions then motions immediately back across the formation (See OSU vs Bama a couple years ago). In that situation the offense always has the advantage if they have caught you in man and defending it is a plus play by the defense while not defending it is the expected outcome.

[basballguy]

(04-11-2022, 09:23 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: Yes, he was deep because that is what he was supposed to do. He does the same thing against Hill at the end of the half. When he follows the motion, he follows deep. The Chiefs called a great play to beat it, but Hardman ran a better route than Hill did. He was able to get flatter. Apple followed the call, so if anything, take up beef with Lou. On motion, he has to run around the defense. This forces him deep.

Your hate boner for Apple is bizarre. You seem like you're just going to bury your head in the sand and refuse to listen to anything else. Eli played good football in 2018. He was pretty bleh in 2019 and didn't play much in 2020. He played fine football here in Cincinnati, and was good over the last half of the season. That's the reality of it all. Not sure what to say, here's to a good 2022 season. Lol.

Yes, Hardman definitely ran the better route.  But Eli was just slow to track his man in motion.  If you look at the Hill play, Eli (seemingly learning from the TD) was much faster and step for step with Hill.  If Eli moved with that same urgency he MIGHT have had a chance to make a play.  As it stood, he never had a chance.  But I only know what i see from the couch.  I'm not a coach, a scout, or anything else.  You see Eli Apple make a great INT on BB, i see a WR that had his CB burned but ran the wrong route.  

I have two problems which drive this "hate boner".  

1) In my opinion, he's a first round bust.  He has yet to live up to his expectations.  A man with his talent should be much better than he is.  
2) There are many people that would rather ignore his volatility and just praise only the good (as fans i guess should do?).  However, when it comes to Apple it just seems a little ridiculous.  

Eli Apple was supposed to be, at a minimum, pro bowl material.  Last year he was counting his blessings he was even on an NFL roster to start the season.  

Who knows?  Maybe this is the year he finally "gets it".  After all, he did say the Rams ignited a flame or some shit.  I guess he just decided to play the whole year (or last 6 years) without that flame?  

[Au165]

(04-11-2022, 01:43 PM)basballguy Wrote: Yes, Hardman definitely ran the better route.  But Eli was just slow to track his man in motion.  If you look at the Hill play, Eli (seemingly learning from the TD) was much faster and step for step with Hill.  If Eli moved with that same urgency he MIGHT have had a chance to make a play.  As it stood, he never had a chance.  But I only know what i see from the couch.  I'm not a coach, a scout, or anything else.  You see Eli Apple make a great INT on BB, i see a WR that had his CB burned but ran the wrong route.  

I have two problems which drive this "hate boner".  

1) In my opinion, he's a first round bust.  He has yet to live up to his expectations.  A man with his talent should be much better than he is.  
2) There are many people that would rather ignore his volatility and just praise only the good (as fans i guess should do?).  However, when it comes to Apple it just seems a little ridiculous.  

Eli Apple was supposed to be, at a minimum, pro bowl material.  Last year he was counting his blessings he was even on an NFL roster to start the season.  

Who knows?  Maybe this is the year he finally "gets it".  After all, he did say the Rams ignited a flame or some shit.  I guess he just decided to play the whole year (or last 6 years) without that flame?  

I would have to replay the first play versus second one but I think the delay may have been a switch/no switch call as Hardman motioned from outside with a WR inside to the open side (in those cases you can sometimes switch the slot guy to the motion and the outside takes the slot). On the second one Hill came from the open side so there was no call to make so it was simply read and react. 

As for the rest, where someone is taken has nothing to do with anything once they are in the league. If he was an UDFA and he played at this level versus being a 1st rounder it doesn't matter he is simply who he is. His talent is what he is, whatever someone projected it to be is on them but we now have an idea of what he really is so the talent he "should have" is no longer an unknown. 

The volatility really as it has been pointed out is not unique to him. William Jackson III was also very volatile and he was supposed to be our #1 corner, for what Apple is (A mid tier 2) he is no more volatile than any other mid tier 2. You probably don't watch other teams as closely to notice it but heck even mid tier 1's have some crazy swings. Look at Charvarious Ward, he had some pretty wild swings in KC which is why they let him leave this year in FA but he was supposed to be their 1. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-05-2022, 08:04 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Just reading these posts (and most have a sensible, optimistic view of Apple), I think of how many TOP FLIGHT CBs that Ja'Marr Chase absolutely roasted in 2021.  I mean, ROASTED.  Marlon Humphry?  Chase sets an NFL record.  I think Chase put doubt in a lot of guys minds last year.  The more I think about that and how afraid CBs will be this year of getting beat (badly) over the top, the underneath should be there all day for guys like Boyd and Hurst.  I am pretty sure that the new offensive line, an improve run game, and this Brady-esque "eat underneath all day" will make the offense that much more efficient.

I know this thread was about Apple, but a bigger lead provided by the offense allows a pass rush to tee off and DBs to make plays.  It all works together.  

Yes, another post SHRacer where you get me pumped for this year. Gonna be a blast with these weapons and Burrow actually
having some time on Offense. Not even mentioning the running game that should be much improved and help out everything. 

Gonna be a blast on the other side of the ball as well seeing our Defense actually not always put into bad situations cause of 
poor OL play. I expect our play in the postseason to flow into this season on Defense where we are damn good at stopping the
run and putting teams into 3rd and longs where Hendrickson and the Ends can pin their ears back and get after the passer.

With improved LB play with Wilson, Pratt and ADG screens should also no longer be a problem.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-07-2022, 03:50 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Why do you hate him? Twitter? That has nothing to do with his play.

After the bye, he was a decent number 2 corner

Unless you want to ignore that and just solely focus on the first 8 weeks

Nice post Frank spot on.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-05-2022, 07:54 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Dead on, and although this is a good (not great) draft for CBs, it is a staggering statistic of how few CBs drafted past day ONE make it to high heights in the NFL.  I would not be surprised at all if they draft a CB and develop him behind Apple.  Great position to be in and not have to make him a starter from day 1.

As I have been saying on this thread...there is a trend that Apple is ascending and in year 2 of the system with even more pass rush, Fred is right that Apple could be the next Reggie Nelson.  

Could be, Apple is talented being a first round pick. Sure he hasn't had a great NFL career but it seemed to turn around for him in
the consistency department after week 8 last season. He got beat some but it usually wasn't bad after that and every #2 that gets 
targeted a lot gets beat by great WR play, just happens on every NFL team.

The one problem with Eli's play before he got here was just inconsistency. He would make a great play and then make a bad play
and get beaten, this happened over and over in his career before it started to come around for him here under Lou who I think is a
fantastic Secondary coach and finally grown into a pretty damn good DC late last year and in the postseason.

[*SHRacerX*]

(04-13-2022, 12:41 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yes, another post SHRacer where you get me pumped for this year. Gonna be a blast with these weapons and Burrow actually
having some time on Offense. Not even mentioning the running game that should be much improved and help out everything. 

Gonna be a blast on the other side of the ball as well seeing our Defense actually not always put into bad situations cause of 
poor OL play. I expect our play in the postseason to flow into this season on Defense where we are damn good at stopping the
run and putting teams into 3rd and longs where Hendrickson and the Ends can pin their ears back and get after the passer.

With improved LB play with Wilson, Pratt and ADG screens should also no longer be a problem.

Thanks, bud.  And although this is an Eli Apple post, have you seen some of the film of Booth blowing up screens?  It seems like he absolutely lives for destroying them.