Is Jackson Carman "Your" Starting LG

[SunsetBengal]

(04-21-2022, 12:06 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Yep Reiff played 422 pass blocking snaps across 12 games and allowed 4 sacks.
0.00948 sacks per pass blocking snap.

Spain played 611 pass blocking snaps in the regular season across 16 games and allowed 5 sacks.
0.00818 sacks per pass blocking snap.

So on a sacks-per-snap basis, Reiff allowed more than Spain did.

I personally wouldn't think Reiff would be better than Spain at LG. LG is Spain's natural position and he's played for many years. Reiff hasn't really ever started a game at LG in the NFL.

I'll say this about Spain;  For a lower cost stopgap, he played as well as anyone could have expected him to.  However, I also feel like if the team thought that he were part of the solution on the OL, I'm pretty sure that they would have made him a priority re-signing, which they have not. 

[Frank Booth]

(04-21-2022, 01:50 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: I never said good, I said, "fine," ie: it was passable-enough for our offense to run.

the o-line was never fine. Not even once. It was Burrow and the weapons carrying the o-line

[*ochocincos*]

(04-21-2022, 02:41 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I'll say this about Spain;  For a lower cost stopgap, he played as well as anyone could have expected him to.  However, I also feel like if the team thought that he were part of the solution on the OL, I'm pretty sure that they would have made him a priority re-signing, which they have not. 

Yep thats what he needs to be right now.
Cheap veteran who can play multiple spots and compete with the young 2nd year draft pick for starting LG reps.
It's fine to spend $2-3 mill on a stopgap or even versatile depth player.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-21-2022, 02:18 PM)Joelist Wrote: The story of our pass blocking last season is pretty convoluted to be sure.

On the good side we didn't have the plague of rushers coming in unblocked like we did in 2020 and we did have games where the line looked competent. Reiff was a definite improvement over Hart and Spain an enormous improvement over Jordan.

On the other side, the sack count did go up. for one thing we had constant issues with backs and TEs missing their blocking assignments (it was interesting that those plays late in the season and postseason mostly were not called anymore) and yes Burrow by his own statement was holding the ball too long for a while there. Depending on your stat source the backs and TEs gave up 8 sacks and Burrow himself is usually assigned 10-12.

On the line itself things went up and down until Reiff got hurt - that was when the implosion started. Adeniji was already terrible (9 sacks in his limited time including 6 in postseason) and Prince was just overmatched. Add in both Carman and Spain being injured as well as D'Ante Smith losing tons of development time to injury and it was a recipe for disaster.

Things like this are why the Bengals got right out there in Free Agency and landed Cappa and Karras and jumped on Collins when he came open - we have completely retooled the right side of the line.

Great post Joelist. Spot on about everything IMO.

[007BengalsFan]

(04-21-2022, 09:36 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Furthermore, do you know what the word, "record," means? 'cause 55 isn't even in the realm of the sack record for oline.

I do know what a record number of sacks mean.  Obviously, you don't.

https://www.daytondailynews.com/sports/bengals-left-tackle-playoffs-a-clean-slate-for-offensive-line-that-gave-up-team-record-55-sacks-this-season/3MYQ26WBA5ACFFETX5H4AOQLYE/

[fredtoast]

(04-21-2022, 02:18 PM)Joelist Wrote: The story of our pass blocking last season is pretty convoluted to be sure.

On the good side we didn't have the plague of rushers coming in unblocked like we did in 2020

Our O-line was weak this year, but 2020 was possibly the worst in team history.  We started off without much talent and got devastated by injury.  We had 11 different players start on our O-line in 2020 with 3 different players starting at multiple positions.  I don't think we had the same starting 5 for more than 3 games.

In 2020 we did not even really attempt to throw the ball deep.  Our pass blocking was a nightmare.  In 2021 we actually had a slightly higher sack percentage, but Joe was getting the time to throw a lot of deep passes.  We gave up way too many sacks but it still looked a lot better than 2020 when he was getting sacked all the time while just dinking and dunking.

[007BengalsFan]

(04-21-2022, 11:07 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: The Spain haters are as irrational as the Apple haters. Ignoring good play all year because of one or 2 plays, or a couple games against elite talent. Get the hell out

Here's what is boils down to. When you make it to the playoffs you will go up against elite talent.  Thats why most of those teams are in the playoffs and its why they are in the Super Bowl.  If you have a player that's not good enough to resonably handle going against elite talent maybe its time to find someone else who can.  If the Bengals keep making it to the playoffs, you can bet they will have to play against more elite talent.

Here is my problem with Spain, I dont want his 46 playoff PFF and 26 Super Bowl PFF having to go out there to face elite talent.  If the Bengals make it to the Super Bowl again, you can bet the team they go up against will have some very talented players.  It could even be the Rams again. 

What happens if Spain is resigned and we have to play the Rams again in the Super Bowl.  Are you going to make excuses Spain shouldnt play better because he had to play against great talent?  The Oline is the reason we lost the Super Bowl and Spain is a big part of that.  I want to see an Oline with guys better than Spain and his 26 Super Bowl PFF.

[*bengalfan74*]

(04-21-2022, 10:20 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Here's what is boils down to. When you make it to the playoffs you will go up against elite talent.  Thats why most of those teams are in the playoffs and its why they are in the Super Bowl.  If you have a player that's not good enough to resonably handle going against elite talent maybe its time to find someone else who can.  If the Bengals keep making it to the playoffs, you can bet they will have to play against more elite talent.

Here is my problem with Spain, I dont want his 46 playoff PFF and 26 Super Bowl PFF having to go out there to face elite talent.  If the Bengals make it to the Super Bowl again, you can bet the team they go up against will have some very talented players.  It could even be the Rams again. 

What happens if Spain is resigned and we have to play the Rams again in the Super Bowl.  Are you going to make excuses Spain shouldnt play better because he had to play against great talent?  The Oline is the reason we lost the Super Bowl and Spain is a big part of that.  I want to see an Oline with guys better than Spain and his 26 Super Bowl PFF.

Here's something else it boils down to. When Spain is your best or 2nd best Olineman you're in trouble and it matters not what his pff grade is. But if Spain is your 6th best Olineman you're doing decent. 

In other words I believe a lot of posters are wanting Spain back as depth. Because most if not all of our other depth is as bad or worse than Spain. 

Could Carman work out ? Maybe But what if he doesn't ? You want Adeniji back out there ? When Spain is your 5th best you can mask it a good bit.

I'm no Spain fan club member. If they can find a better vet I'm all for it. 

[Frank Booth]

(04-21-2022, 10:41 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Here's something else it boils down to. When Spain is your best or 2nd best Olineman you're in trouble and it matters not what his pff grade is. But if Spain is your 6th best Olineman you're doing decent. 

In other words I believe a lot of posters are wanting Spain back as depth. Because most if not all of our other depth is as bad or worse than Spain. 

Could Carman work out ? Maybe But what if he doesn't ? You want Adeniji back out there ? When Spain is your 5th best you can mask it a good bit.

I'm no Spain fan club member. If they can find a better vet I'm all for it. 

Spain is cheap, and at worse, he's an average/slightly below average guard. 

So if he beats out Carman, our worse o-lineman is Spain or Karras, who are both similarly graded players

or if Carman wins the job over Spain, we have an elite back up at Guard. And Carman does have some back problems. 

[007BengalsFan]

(04-21-2022, 10:41 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Here's something else it boils down to. When Spain is your best or 2nd best Olineman you're in trouble and it matters not what his pff grade is. But if Spain is your 6th best Olineman you're doing decent. 

In other words I believe a lot of posters are wanting Spain back as depth. Because most if not all of our other depth is as bad or worse than Spain. 

Could Carman work out ? Maybe But what if he doesn't ? You want Adeniji back out there ? When Spain is your 5th best you can mask it a good bit.

I'm no Spain fan club member. If they can find a better vet I'm all for it. 

If you resign Spain its either going to be him or Carman and I have serious doubts about Carman being able to stay healthy so I think it would probably end up being Spain.  I just dont want that going into the playoffs again.  We need to do better at LG.  Personally I think the line would be much better signing Tretter instead of Spain and then moving Karras to LG.  That would be a pretty good O-line.

[bengals1969]

(04-21-2022, 10:55 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: If you resign Spain its either going to be him or Carman and I have serious doubts about Carman being able to stay healthy so I think it would probably end up being Spain.  I just dont want that going into the playoffs again.  We need to do better at LG.  Personally I think the line would be much better signing Tretter instead of Spain and then moving Karras to LG.  That would be a pretty good O-line.

I doubt the Bengals will sign Karras and announce he is the starting center then immediately move him to LG. The Bengals need better depth on the line, which the draft could address. I can’t believe the Bengals want to go into the season with Adeniji or Prince as the second string. Unless Carmen has effed up his off-season work, which the coaches will know, he gets a shot at starting LG.

[iowahwky4cincy]

(04-06-2022, 09:03 PM)Emeritus Wrote:

So if any guy of my big 3 is available at 31.
Do you pass for Jackson Carman upside?
Thats the essence of this thread. Would you pass?
To me that tells me quite a bit if one of my three is available and they pass. So what they went to a SB is that enough for you.

If Linderbaum is available at 31, you take him. He's the best center in college football, and will be one of the best in the NFL. I disagree with all the talk about "versatility", especially on the o-line, where a player's worth is determined by his ability to play multiple positions. The old saying that if you're a jack of all trades, you're a master of none comes to mind. I'd rather have an offensive lineman who is elite at one position than one who is an also-ran at multiple positions. If you're ok at many, you're probably only average at a particular one.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-22-2022, 12:56 AM)iowahwky4cincy Wrote: If Linderbaum is available at 31, you take him. He's the best center in college football, and will be one of the best in the NFL. I disagree with all the talk about "versatility", especially on the o-line, where a player's worth is determined by his ability to play multiple positions. The old saying that if you're a jack of all trades, you're a master of none comes to mind. I'd rather have an offensive lineman who is elite at one position than one who is an also-ran at multiple positions. If you're ok at many, you're probably only average at a particular one.

I firmly believe Linderbaum will be great...in the right scheme.
He won't be great for everyone.
He does have physical limitations that can impact certain schemes.

I wouldn't have any hesitation to draft him for a wide zone scheme and shift Karras to LG.

Being versatile is more important for depth guys compared to clear-cut starters.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-21-2022, 10:41 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Here's something else it boils down to. When Spain is your best or 2nd best Olineman you're in trouble and it matters not what his pff grade is. But if Spain is your 6th best Olineman you're doing decent. 

In other words I believe a lot of posters are wanting Spain back as depth. Because most if not all of our other depth is as bad or worse than Spain. 

Could Carman work out ? Maybe But what if he doesn't ? You want Adeniji back out there ? When Spain is your 5th best you can mask it a good bit.

I'm no Spain fan club member. If they can find a better vet I'm all for it. 

Common sense isn't very common, glad you have it Bengalfan74.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-22-2022, 12:56 AM)iowahwky4cincy Wrote: If Linderbaum is available at 31, you take him. He's the best center in college football, and will be one of the best in the NFL. I disagree with all the talk about "versatility", especially on the o-line, where a player's worth is determined by his ability to play multiple positions. The old saying that if you're a jack of all trades, you're a master of none comes to mind. I'd rather have an offensive lineman who is elite at one position than one who is an also-ran at multiple positions. If you're ok at many, you're probably only average at a particular one.

Yes, Linderbaum might be the most ideal player for us besides Elam or one of the other Corners. The thing is it is deep at
Corner. Linderbaum as you say is without a doubt the best player at his position in this Draft. I hope we take him, it will say
a lot if he is there and we pass on him.

(04-22-2022, 12:14 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I firmly believe Linderbaum will be great...in the right scheme.
He won't be great for everyone.
He does have physical limitations that can impact certain schemes.

I wouldn't have any hesitation to draft him for a wide zone scheme and shift Karras to LG.

Being versatile is more important for depth guys compared to clear-cut starters.

That is the thing, he fits our wide zone scheme. To me it is a no brainer unless Pollack and the coaches think his physical 
limitations will hinder him going against the big NT's of the AFC North and the NFL overall. I think he can make up for them
with his quick hands, technique and strength. The Coaches might disagree though.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-22-2022, 12:51 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yes, Linderbaum might be the most ideal player for us besides Elam or one of the other Corners. The thing is it is deep at
Corner. Linderbaum as you say is without a doubt the best player at his position in this Draft. I hope we take him, it will say
a lot if he is there and we pass on him.


That is the thing, he fits our wide zone scheme. To me it is a no brainer unless Pollack and the coaches think his physical 
limitations will hinder him going against the big NT's of the AFC North and the NFL overall. I think he can make up for them
with his quick hands, technique and strength. The Coaches might disagree though.

Linderbaum fits if the Bengals continue with the WZ scheme.
If they shift to a different scheme that requires different skill set, Linderbaum may not fit as well.
Some people think the Bengals might be shifting some with the acquisitions of Karras, Cappa, and Collins.
Those guys are more bullies and (some) are not quite as mobile as what you'd ideally want in a WZ scheme.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-22-2022, 04:03 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Linderbaum fits if the Bengals continue with the WZ scheme.
If they shift to a different scheme that requires different skill set, Linderbaum may not fit as well.
Some people think the Bengals might be shifting some with the acquisitions of Karras, Cappa, and Collins.
Those guys are more bullies and (some) are not quite as mobile as what you'd ideally want in a WZ scheme.

All true, nice post Ocho. Like I said, it will tell a lot of Linderbaum is there and we pass on him.

[NUGDUKWE]

(04-21-2022, 12:06 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Yep Reiff played 422 pass blocking snaps across 12 games and allowed 4 sacks.
0.00948 sacks per pass blocking snap.

Spain played 611 pass blocking snaps in the regular season across 16 games and allowed 5 sacks.
0.00818 sacks per pass blocking snap.

So on a sacks-per-snap basis, Reiff allowed more than Spain did.

I personally wouldn't think Reiff would be better than Spain at LG. LG is Spain's natural position and he's played for many years. Reiff hasn't really ever started a game at LG in the NFL.

There was a sack in the Bears game that was given to Jonah but it should've been given to Spain. Not sure that makes a difference and I'm really not trying to argue that it should. I like Spain and he has been better than what we've had. I certainly wouldn't mind him at depth. But after watching the wk 17 KC game again where Carman came in for Spain I really hope we go online at 31 assuming the right guy is there. Carman struggled and I'd really just like to add more overall talent to the Oline. 

[*ochocincos*]

(04-23-2022, 08:45 AM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: There was a sack in the Bears game that was given to Jonah but it should've been given to Spain. Not sure that makes a difference and I'm really not trying to argue that it should. I like Spain and he has been better than what we've had. I certainly wouldn't mind him at depth. But after watching the wk 17 KC game again where Carman came in for Spain I really hope we go online at 31 assuming the right guy is there. Carman struggled and I'd really just like to add more overall talent to the Oline. 

I'd like 1 mid-round OT to push Prince off the roster and 1 IOL to challenge those interior guys.
But if I had to pick just one, it would be someone who could play OT.
I've just never liked Prince's skill set for the Bengals. He's a run-only guy who has never been good as a pass blocker.

[NUGDUKWE]

(04-23-2022, 10:24 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I'd like 1 mid-round OT to push Prince off the roster and 1 IOL to challenge those interior guys.
But if I had to pick just one, it would be someone who could play OT.
I've just never liked Prince's skill set for the Bengals. He's a run-only guy who has never been good as a pass blocker.

If we trade back and add picks I would like the idea of just adding a couple mid-round guys to compete more. If we stay put I think the value will be at Oline in 1. Most likely we'll be looking at 2nd tier CB's at 31 and we can find a good DT in rds 2-4.