Either/Or (IOL)

[Gdale_Bengal]

I understand why people want Zion over Tyler because getting either player could make this line elite because both are absolute studs. But is Zion an elite zone blocker? Honest question.

I figure that the FO are over the top happy having Pollack back, and it might be him staying here for a long time. So the outside zone scheme might be the blocking staple moving forward for several years. We know Linderbaum most likely will be elite in this system, and it’s perfectly fine to have a player that fits the system if that system were to stick around for potentially many years and makes him an all pro.

So it might sound like I’m overhyping Tyler, but if they were to take him and move Karras to LG, who is better there than at C from what I’ve read, and make the offense as an entire whole elite (QB/OL/WR and TE/RB…seriously) then I consider Linderbaum a slam dunk at 31 for the scheme and even worth trading up for. That’s my opinion and why I think it’s not close…even though I am still all for Zion Johnson if that makes any sense.

[*Go Cards*]

Wish I could mix the two in a Frankenstein type way per both are different and makes it a difficult call.

Tyler is more explosive off the snap and Zion not so much but more power. Speed and technique vs power and length.

Now Zion is a team captain which fits Zac's culture but don't really think Tyler would fall very far out of that category either.

Both are 22 yrs old so that's a wash but would lean slightly towards Tyler per having a higher ceiling imo.

Although believe Linderbaum also comes with a lower floor than Johnson so its a roll of the dice still. Yet one I would take but only if all the top DB's are gone.

[SunsetBengal]

(04-13-2022, 09:54 AM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: I understand why people want Zion over Tyler because getting either player could make this line elite because both are absolute studs. But is Zion an elite zone blocker? Honest question.

I figure that the FO are over the top happy having Pollack back, and it might be him staying here for a long time. So the outside zone scheme might be the blocking staple moving forward for several years. We know Linderbaum most likely will be elite in this system, and it’s perfectly fine to have a player that fits the system if that system were to stick around for potentially many years and makes him an all pro.

So it might sound like I’m overhyping Tyler, but if they were to take him and move Karras to LG, who is better there than at C from what I’ve read, and make the offense as an entire whole elite (QB/OL/WR and TE/RB…seriously) then I consider Linderbaum a slam dunk at 31 for the scheme and even worth trading up for. That’s my opinion and why I think it’s not close…even though I am still all for Zion Johnson if that makes any sense.

If you watch Linerbaum's highlights, most of them are of him movement.  Either in the running game getting out on a defender or pulling with precision, getting out there on screen passes, drop backs with moving pockets, etc. His highlight reel features very few straight drop back sets, where he must maintain his base against 2 gappers and NTs, like he's going to see all of the time in the NFL.

Whereas with Johnson, the dude is big and powerful, can go one on one with strength against strength, and has the length to keep extreme power at arm's length. 

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

If EITHER is there, I would be thrilled. In my view, bith are ELITE IOL prospects and immediate starters. I'd prefer both over Booth/Elam at CB, or Wyatt/Winfrey/Hall at DT/DE. Or Mafe/Ebiketie at Edge. Or Hill/Cine/Pitre at S/CB.

Due to positional versatility, I'd take Zion. But it is close. Real close. I think our line would be better with Linderbaum at C and Karras at LG than Karras at C and Johnson at LG.

[Gdale_Bengal]

(04-13-2022, 10:43 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: If you watch Linerbaum's highlights, most of them are of him movement.  Either in the running game getting out on a defender or pulling with precision, getting out there on screen passes, drop backs with moving pockets, etc. His highlight reel features very few straight drop back sets, where he must maintain his base against 2 gappers and NTs, like he's going to see all of the time in the NFL.

Whereas with Johnson, the dude is big and powerful, can go one on one with strength against strength, and has the length to keep extreme power at arm's length. 

That was an issue going into his pro day. He’s added 10lbs. And still posted elite numbers. So he knows his problem and is working on it

[Whatever]

(04-13-2022, 10:43 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: If you watch Linerbaum's highlights, most of them are of him movement.  Either in the running game getting out on a defender or pulling with precision, getting out there on screen passes, drop backs with moving pockets, etc. His highlight reel features very few straight drop back sets, where he must maintain his base against 2 gappers and NTs, like he's going to see all of the time in the NFL.

Whereas with Johnson, the dude is big and powerful, can go one on one with strength against strength, and has the length to keep extreme power at arm's length. 

I would say the big question with him in outside zone is can he disengage from crafty NFL NT's who will hold him to keep him from getting to those second level blocks?  

I mentioned awhile back that Iowa runs the ball over 55% of the time and a lot of their passes are screens or play action from under center.  Can he handle the sheer volume of true pass sets he will have in Zac's offense?

Another issue that people are overlooking is the Bengals moving Karras can lead to a number of issues.  Karras obviously believes his best position and his best chance to maximize his value for his next contract is at C.  The Bengals have said he's the starting C.  Now, you want to move him to LG and have him compete with a 2nd round pick you have high hopes for.  Easy to see there being an immediate disconnect between the player/agent and the coaches/FO when literally the first promise you made him was bullshit.  

[SunsetBengal]

(04-13-2022, 12:41 PM)Whatever Wrote: I would say the big question with him in outside zone is can he disengage from crafty NFL NT's who will hold him to keep him from getting to those second level blocks?  

I mentioned awhile back that Iowa runs the ball over 55% of the time and a lot of their passes are screens or play action from under center.  Can he handle the sheer volume of true pass sets he will have in Zac's offense?

Another issue that people are overlooking is the Bengals moving Karras can lead to a number of issues.  Karras obviously believes his best position and his best chance to maximize his value for his next contract is at C.  The Bengals have said he's the starting C.  Now, you want to move him to LG and have him compete with a 2nd round pick you have high hopes for.  Easy to see there being an immediate disconnect between the player/agent and the coaches/FO when literally the first promise you made him was bullshit.  

Similar to what we saw with Billy Price a few years ago.  He was fantastic when not covered by a huge interior OL, and could get out and lay a block on defenders in space.  In close quarters, he didn't have the arm length to keep bigger defenders from getting their hands on him.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-13-2022, 12:41 PM)Whatever Wrote: I would say the big question with him in outside zone is can he disengage from crafty NFL NT's who will hold him to keep him from getting to those second level blocks?  

I mentioned awhile back that Iowa runs the ball over 55% of the time and a lot of their passes are screens or play action from under center.  Can he handle the sheer volume of true pass sets he will have in Zac's offense?

Another issue that people are overlooking is the Bengals moving Karras can lead to a number of issues.  Karras obviously believes his best position and his best chance to maximize his value for his next contract is at C.  The Bengals have said he's the starting C.  Now, you want to move him to LG and have him compete with a 2nd round pick you have high hopes for.  Easy to see there being an immediate disconnect between the player/agent and the coaches/FO when literally the first promise you made him was bullshit.  

Why would he believe that? All we’ve heard is that he’s a better OG than C, and we just paid Cappa (a OG) way more than him.

[*ochocincos*]

Ya know, back when I thought Bengals were going to pick in the 10-15 range midway through the season, I was all about Tyler Linderbaum.
I really think he's a great fit at C for the Bengals.

But once the Bengals made the playoffs, I really felt Linderbaum was out of reach. I started really focusing on Zion Johnson, who I felt (and still feel) is one of the very few IOL that can start from Day 1 and play at least solid. Toss in Zion's versatility to play OG, OT, and even some C (which he played at Senior Bowl), and he became my favorite OL toward the end of Rd 1.

This was all also before FA, so Karras wasn't added yet. But I'm not sure how much it matters if Karras is here since he can play all IOL spots.

I think ultimately I'll have to go with Zion.
His versatility will help a lot in case of injuries, plus I think he's more scheme diverse.

[Nicomo Cosca]

Out of all the mocks I’ve done I’ve only had Zion still be on the board at 31 once. Linderbaum a handful of times. I do think that’s probably at least somewhat predictive of how it will go.

The guy that’s been there the most (as far as OL) is Green.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-13-2022, 01:18 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Out of all the mocks I’ve done I’ve only had Zion still be on the board at 31 once. Linderbaum a handful of times. I do think that’s probably at least somewhat predictive of how it will go.

The guy that’s been there the most (as far as OL) is Green.

Anyone know why Green seems to be falling?
For the longest time, he was consensus OG1.

Maybe it's because of his Combine performance?
I know he had a bad shuttle and didn't do the 3-cone, so I could see teams thinking he's not athletic enough for their scheme.

TDN compares him to Elgton Jenkins, who has been really good for GB.
NFL.com compares him to Richie Incognito, who was one of the best OGs for a long time (despite being a POS).

[Gdale_Bengal]

(04-13-2022, 01:18 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Out of all the mocks I’ve done I’ve only had Zion still be on the board at 31 once. Linderbaum a handful of times. I do think that’s probably at least somewhat predictive of how it will go.

The guy that’s been there the most (as far as OL) is Green.

TDNs board has has Linderbaum and more OL falling to 31 and into day 2. I’ve been picking Linderbaum with Green and Johnson sometimes on the board still. In all those mocks all the DBs are gone.

(04-13-2022, 01:23 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Anyone know why Green seems to be falling?
For the longest time, he was consensus OG1.

Maybe it's because of his Combine performance?
I know he had a bad shuttle and didn't do the 3-cone, so I could see teams thinking he's not athletic enough for their scheme.

TDN compares him to Elgton Jenkins, who has been really good for GB.
NFL.com compares him to Richie Incognito, who was one of the best OGs for a long time (despite being a POS).

His combine numbers were garbage. That’s why I’ve seen him slide to the middle of 2 recently.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-13-2022, 01:38 PM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: TDNs board has has Linderbaum and more OL falling to 31 and into day 2. I’ve been picking Linderbaum with Green and Johnson sometimes on the board still. In all those mocks all the DBs are gone.

His combine numbers were garbage. That’s why I’ve seen him slide to the middle of 2 recently.

What do you mean by their board?
When I hear "board," I think of prospect rankings. TDN's prospect rankings has Linderbaum at 13.
https://thedraftnetwork.com/prospect-rankings

Now if you mean their mocks, that's different.

[Gdale_Bengal]

(04-13-2022, 01:40 PM)ochocincos Wrote: What do you mean by their board?
When I hear "board," I think of prospect rankings. TDN's prospect rankings has Linderbaum at 13.
https://thedraftnetwork.com/prospect-rankings

Now if you mean their mocks, that's different.

Mocks, or the mocks I have done recently at least.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-13-2022, 01:57 PM)Gdale_Bengal Wrote: Mocks, or the mocks I have done recently at least.

Yea the mocks are a different story.
It starts going more into needs/scheme and less about the pure talent of the player.
In that case, I can see Linderbaum falling since not many teams will need a C and also even less of those teams running a zone scheme that fits Linderbaum's skill set.

[BenZoo2]

I personally can’t wait for the draft to be over. Then we can move on to arguing about who they took instead of who they should take


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Yogo]

(04-13-2022, 08:34 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: It’s just something extra that I like about him, so I mentioned it. Jeez…

It’s not like he doesn’t have fantastic tape (and now testing) to go along with it. And I don’t disagree that Zion is safer. He probably is.

I’d be happy with either one, but I’d be more excited about Linderbaum’s potential. Especially after seeing Creed Humphrey come in and dominate the league during his rookie year. If Linderbaum comes anywhere close to that, and we have Karras playing LG - our OL could be a huge strength.

I apologize, Nicomo.  My bad.  I didn't mean to come across as sarcastic or attacking.  Just being my lighthearted joking self that comes across wrong in typing a lot.  But yeah, I like RAS scores a lot too, but physical measurements also must be taken into consideration imho.

[*psychdoctor*]

I went Zion J. Plug and play LG. Some flexibility at other OL positions.

[puddycat]

At this point, position versatility is driving me crazy. Joe Burrow can only play quarterback; Jamaar chase can only play WR. Versatility only matters a) if you aren't good enough to start at your "best" position, 2) management screwed up and didn't get a decent backup at another position or 3) you suck doing what you were drafted to do. If you want to draft a guard for need, draft Zion. If you want to draft BPA and think center is a need, draft Linderbaum. Also, the drop-off at center is much bigger than guard. {Of course, this ignores the guards that will be shoe-horned into center and tackles moved inside to guard.}

[Soonerpeace]

Seth Walder
@SethWalder
Three most likely players to be selected at Pick 31 (Bengals) are all interior offensive linemen, per ESPN's Draft Day Predictor

http://espnsportsanalytics.com/

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2022/4/14/23024739/espn-draft-day-predictor-sees-interior-o-linemen-as-likeliest-1st-round-pick-for-bengals

You can use the ESPN table to insert your player and calculate. We’ve got a shot at Tyler,Zion, and Green. I watched Zion on GMFB just now. Wow he blew me away on his intelligence