Players are turning on Zac finally

[KillerGoose]

(10-10-2022, 04:58 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I don’t think it’s a matter of overrating the players. We saw so many of them play at an extremely high level last season, including in the playoffs.

I’d say it’s much more likely the talent was winning in spite of the mediocre coaching, and it’s finally caught up to them.

I agree with you, but seeing them play at a high level last season doesn't mean they are definitively good. Overrating the players is still a possibility. There are historical cases of players performing at a high level for one season and then never replicating that success again. It doesn't occur often, but has still occurred. 

I do not believe that, though. I think it is a coaching deficit. 

[Destro]

(10-10-2022, 04:54 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Yeah. At a simple level, there is only three answers...

1. The roster is awesome but the coaches are holding the team back.
2. We as Bengals fans are overrating how good the players are. 
3. A combination of 1 & 2.
   

Personally, I just don't like most of the O-line and Eli Apple. That's it. Apple will actually prevent himself from being embarrassed from time to time. I have always felt Mixon got far too much hate. ( I think the contract doesn't help ). I do think he is on a downward trend and I hate to see it, but I do. I'm ok with the rest of the team, really. I don't expect 1st team all pros at every position. Defense is otherwise devoid of bums. Offense has studs. 

Is it a team for 17-0? Nope. Should they be losing like this? Absolutely not. Coaching is a major contributing factor. Even with Burrow/mixon/O-line etc, having bad games, you need to scheme around it. Bunch of warehouse workers know our plays but NFL DCs don't. Yea3h, playcalling is god awful. 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-10-2022, 05:04 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I agree with you, but seeing them play at a high level last season doesn't mean they are definitively good. Overrating the players is still a possibility. There are historical cases of players performing at a high level for one season and then never replicating that success again. It doesn't occur often, but has still occurred. 

I do not believe that, though. I think it is a coaching deficit.

Right. I think that’s much more likely when you consider the pedigree of some of these players (Heisman winner & #1OA, top 5 pick & OROY, 2 very good 2nd round WR’s, very good RB, the top OL of a draft, etc).

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-10-2022, 02:40 PM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: I think the frustration comes from a place of Bengals fans knowing this offense could and should be better.

Yes, we are losing some close games and therefor are definitely highly competitive. We are still very much in the race.

Yet the offense has the talent to get at least a field goal on every drive or every drive and a half (and yet we see stretches where the play-calling and execution is terrible). Good OCs maximize the talent at their disposal and find ways to attack the defense's weaknesses. We aren't doing that. We're running a very predictable game plan. At key moments we are coming up with some key drives to keep games close. But too many drives stall before they get started by a couple predictable play calls.

It's an easy fix, they just need to learn (and they're a little slow at this). Zac has a great mindset and is great at motivating the players and assembling a talented team. The jury is still out whether he can develop into an offensive guru/great play caller. So far he's failed to fully utilize the talent at his disposal. Just look at the offense's numbers in the playoffs. Pedestrian, with Joe coming up big late in games. The defense carries this team.

There are coaches that put their players in a great position to succeed with their gameplanning/play calling, and there are those that fail more often then not. Zac is right in the middle kinda like the Andy Dalton spectrum when he was a starter. Just barely good enough to win maybe 65% of the time. Zac has a ways to go to be a top 20 head coach in this league.

Fans are correct to be concerned whether the playcalling and coaching is going to be 'good enough' to win it all. It's common knowledge that when a team rests on talent alone, they fail. Need some brains in the coaching staff to bring out the most of the players.

As Higgy here said, good post. Have to say it again, Zac is young so he can learn to be a better coach. I just don't
think he is a good play caller and that is something I just don't see improving much. He needs to step aside from 
these duties and let Brian call the plays. This Offense is too talented to be this bad and the OL has even really 
improved from the beginning of the season so they are no longer to blame.

(10-10-2022, 03:06 PM)higgy100 Wrote: Good post. In all fairness you're playing teams with pretty damn good defenses in the playoffs and with a below average OL nobody is going to look good. To what extent ZT relies on Callahan I really don't know and if you or anybody else does I'd seriously like to know this.

I'm sure ZT overides and makes the final call but to save face, ZT can still be the play caller but allow far more influence from BC. 

At the very least this. Zac needs to have less influence over the play calling plain and simple.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-10-2022, 03:38 PM)The D.O.Z. Wrote: Zac needs to give up play calling. And we need better than Brian Callahan. I see people calling for him to be more involved. Who’s to say he already isn’t and is part of the problem?

Well then, damn, we are screwed if Brian Callahan is part of the problem.

We aren't bringing in an OC from the outside, not happening.

(10-10-2022, 03:41 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: yep

remember what Hue Jackson was doing with the best weapons in the league in 2015? He was moving people around. Being Creative

Callahan just thinks Jamarr, Tee, and Boyd can just win their matchups regardless of the dfensive looks

(10-10-2022, 03:42 PM)Wyche Wrote: For all of the grief Hue gets, I liked him as OC. 

Wish we could bring back Hue honestly. Not happening though.

Just have to hope Zac and Brian learn is all we can do I guess.

[Sled21]

The total lack of capability for some to handle a little bit of adversity speaks a lot about today's generation. Just about every pundit was favoring the Ravens to run away with the division. Wd just went into their stadium, without Higgins and without Reader, and got beat by a last sexomd field goal. And evidently did it with the worst coaches in the NFL...

[TheFan]

(10-10-2022, 04:58 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I don’t think it’s a matter of overrating the players. We saw so many of them play at an extremely high level last season, including in the playoffs.

I’d say it’s much more likely the talent was winning in spite of the mediocre coaching, and it’s finally caught up to them.

Has our offense really played at a high level though? I think we're kind of misremebering last year due to a short string of good games in the middle of the year. 

We had a 6 game stretch where we scored 30 or more points in 5 games (weeks 6-12). In the other 20 games from last year and this year we only scored over 30 twice. Our offense has been bad for a long time. 

[TheFan]

(10-10-2022, 05:16 PM)Sled21 Wrote: The total lack of capability for some to handle a little bit of adversity speaks a lot about today's generation. Just about every pundit was favoring the Ravens to run away with the division. Wd just went into their stadium, without Higgins and without Reader, and got beat by a last sexomd field goal. And evidently did it with the worst coaches in the NFL...

I think most people are frustrated with an offense that hasn't scored over 30 points in their last 10 games. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(10-10-2022, 04:10 PM)Tony Wrote: Of course it did. He is saying the players can only play with thencards are dealt .. That is directly toward the coaching.. They make all the calls.. What do you think he is referring to if not coaching?

Wait for it...

(10-10-2022, 04:43 PM)Nepa Wrote: I can see where you can draw that conclusion, Tony. Basically, there is a question put to Mixon about whether he would like Zac to put it more on his back and he says, "whatever is called, that's on him. I'm just playing the cards that are dealt." He basically has the same answer in terms of whether you feel they are getting off to a slow start in games and says, "just playing the cards dealt to us."'

But if that is criticism, it is really, really minor. That is not turning on Zac. That's just a mature way of saying, "I have my area of responsibility and my job is to execute in that area." And at some point, he states that quite clearly, in terms of players needing to execute, stating, "when a play was called, we needed to deliver."

Overall, it was a very thoughtful and mature answer to the questions posed.

There ya go. 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-10-2022, 05:16 PM)Sled21 Wrote: The total lack of capability for some to handle a little bit of adversity speaks a lot about today's generation. Just about every pundit was favoring the Ravens to run away with the division. Wd just went into their stadium, without Higgins and without Reader, and got beat by a last sexomd field goal. And evidently did it with the worst coaches in the NFL...

Even the biggest homer should be able to admit this offense is woefully underperforming.

We have two top 5 picks at QB & WR1, two very good 2nd round WR’s, a big money RB, and a rebuilt OL.

Injuries are not an excuse. Baltimore was missing their best WR, and their starting free safety left the game on what was already the 32nd rated pass defense.

[J24]

(10-10-2022, 04:54 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Yeah. At a simple level, there is only three answers...

1. The roster is awesome but the coaches are holding the team back.
2. We as Bengals fans are overrating how good the players are. 
3. A combination of 1 & 2.
   

Teams have adjusted to us + the offensive line is getting  used to each other. Similar thing happened to the Chiefs last season and they ended as the #2 seed.  

[Nicomo Cosca]

(10-10-2022, 05:16 PM)TheFan Wrote: Has our offense really played at a high level though? I think we're kind of misremebering last year due to a short string of good games in the middle of the year. 

We had a 6 game stretch where we scored 30 or more points in 5 games (weeks 6-12). In the other 20 games from last year and this year we only scored over 30 twice. Our offense has been bad for a long time. 

Certain players did. Burrow broke every single season franchise passing record, Chase won OROY and had the best rookie season since Moss, Tee put up 1k yds despite missing a couple games, and Mixon was a Pro Bowler.

But yes, overall they were inconsistent. The talent was on full display though.

[*bfine32*]

(10-10-2022, 04:00 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: lol. That had nothing to do with not supporting his coach. 

IDK, the part where he said "We have to play the cards we are dealt" when he said "we have great coaches and great players" Is code for I'm turning on my HC. 

[THE PISTONS]

(10-10-2022, 05:31 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Even the biggest homer should be able to admit this offense is woefully underperforming.

We have two top 5 picks at QB & WR1, two very good 2nd round WR’s, a big money RB, and a rebuilt OL.

Injuries are not an excuse. Baltimore was missing their best WR, and their starting free safety left the game on what was already the 32nd rated pass defense.

Yep. This isn't just a rough patch. It actually started in the playoffs last year.

It's concerning that they can't adjust to it.

[NUGDUKWE]

(10-10-2022, 03:23 PM)Nepa Wrote: thanks for looking it up. I didn't want to take the time to find the counter to "Zac never takes the blame" comment, but I did remember him doing so in the past. And I actually like his demeanor on the field and at the podium. I'm not crazy about those out-of-control coaches who fly off the handle all the time. 

The amount of venom being heaped on Zac Taylor after building a team that went to the Super Bowl last year, and has been competitive in every game this year, is a little overboard. In the game day thread, someone said he was the worst coach in the history of the NFL. Does anyone watch other games and see some of the plays they call? 

Part of the problem must be expectations among Bengals fans. Vegas had the Bengals 10th in odds, with the Ravens ahead of them, and even the Browns before Watkins suspension was extended. Other authorities do not see the Bengals as this Super Team. 

Yes, we haven't figured out cover 2 as yet, mainly because until last game we couldn't get a running game going. But four new OL takes time to gel. The Bengals will figure it out.

Get out your anger about the loss if you need to. But let's not start leaping to speculation "these-players-look-angry-at-Zac" speculation.

I mean Zac has taken the blame at times but then just turns around and does the exact same thing. We went for it on 4th down 3 games in a row instead of kicking a field goal and didn't get any of them. What's worse is I don't think any of those times really even seemed necessary to go for it and the 3 pts would've been just as valuable.

There has been times the offense is good and but I'd say overall they've underperformed. Last year we lived on the explosive plays and when we got to the playoffs our offense was one of the worst in history to make the superbowl if I'm not mistaken. We hit some Homeruns in free agency on defense and that's the real story of this teams success and that's not gonna last too much longer and then we will really be mediocre.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

Harbaugh said they recognized the blocking scheme on the Bengals shovel pass on fourth down. Said their defense has seen that play a lot in practice because the Ravens offense has been running it.

— Jeff Zrebiec (@jeffzrebiec) October 10, 2022

The TD success rate on all passes inside the five yard line over that same time span is 36%.

So literally unless you are the Chiefs or the Ravens, you are better off calling any other play. Statistically speaking, at least.

— Brett Kollmann (@BrettKollmann) October 10, 2022

[*bfine32*]

(10-10-2022, 05:17 PM)TheFan Wrote: I think most people are frustrated with an offense that hasn't scored over 30 points in their last 10 games. 

Sure folks are frustrated but is it the Chicken or the Egg? Execution or scheme? 

[NUGDUKWE]

(10-10-2022, 05:16 PM)Sled21 Wrote: The total lack of capability for some to handle a little bit of adversity speaks a lot about today's generation. Just about every pundit was favoring the Ravens to run away with the division. Wd just went into their stadium, without Higgins and without Reader, and got beat by a last sexomd field goal. And evidently did it with the worst coaches in the NFL...

I went in to the game knowing we could very well lose by wide margin. What's upsetting is the defense more than did its job and even with the offensive struggles. We probably either win this game or give ourselves a much better chance to win. If our play callers realize Joe Mixon is actually running the ball and we at least attempt to punch it in from the 2yd line on 1st or 2nd down. Then if that still doesn't work you kick a field goal. That's why people are upset because we played good enough to win to only have coaching decisions not give us a chance. Our schedule isn't getting easier it's only gonna get tougher. I'd also say in the 1st 2 games if we just helped the tackles like we have in years past with a TE or RB chipping the end we probably win 1 or both of those games as well. That's why I'm upset is because we've played well enough to be in a very good position this season only to have our coaches throw it away.

[Frank Booth]

(10-10-2022, 06:16 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote:

Harbaugh said they recognized the blocking scheme on the Bengals shovel pass on fourth down. Said their defense has seen that play a lot in practice because the Ravens offense has been running it.

— Jeff Zrebiec (@jeffzrebiec) October 10, 2022

The TD success rate on all passes inside the five yard line over that same time span is 36%.

So literally unless you are the Chiefs or the Ravens, you are better off calling any other play. Statistically speaking, at least.

— Brett Kollmann (@BrettKollmann) October 10, 2022

the shovel pass is a cliche at this point. it's almost as cliche as the philly special

oh wait..

[THE PISTONS]

(10-10-2022, 05:09 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Right. I think that’s much more likely when you consider the pedigree of some of these players (Heisman winner & #1OA, top 5 pick & OROY, 2 very good 2nd round WR’s, very good RB, the top OL of a draft, etc).

And the pedigree of the coaches. Last year was lightning in a bottle.

And we as fans needed that SB...no doubt.

We're not there yet, but at some point if they can't beat Tampa 2...we'll worry about Burrow.