Were the pre-Joe Bengals as bad as most think?

[TheCincinnatiKid]

No I don't think we were as bad pre-Burrow as people would make out, but there were a few stigma points used as a stick to beat us with.

- The 90s. About as laughable a decade as any NFL team could ever have. Takes some success to remove that stigma. We never really had that success until Burrow came in.
- The Playoff Drought. Any team that takes 3 decades to win a single playoff game isn't going to be respected. We managed to compound this even further, by make the playoffs in 6 straight years and going 0-6.
- If there's a way to lose a game, the Bengals will find it. The Wild Card game with the Steelers will have absolutely hammered home perceptions about us. Even something like the Palmer/Henry injury in our first playoff appearance in forever... people would just look at crap like that and wonder what kind of luck the Bengals will ever have. Bad luck teams = bad teams, in terms of perception.

Fortunately we seem to be moving past this now, but even just talking about the pre-Burrow Bengals, there were a few teams who also weren't very good. We were an absolute joke, and then Marvin Lewis came in and made us pretty competitive most years. He did it during a time the Steelers and Ravens were really good for a long period of time too. I think he deserves a bit more credit than he gets, though clearly he had limitations as well.

[WiregrassBenGal]

My votes for the most miserable franchises of the NFL are (in no particular order): Arizona (should be called the Coyotes or Roadrunners) Cardinals, Detroit Lions, Cleveland Browns after 1999, New York Jets, Washington Commanders, Miami Dolphins, and Chicago Bears.

Yes, the Bengals completely stunk up the 90s but even then there were some fun moments such as the Jeff Blake aerial show, Boomer returning for a swan song, and some fun upsets. Akili Smith and David Klingler both show up on "worst NFL quarterbacks of all time" lists. Since about 2004, it has overall been pretty fun to be a Bengal's fan.

Of those miserable franchises, the Bears and Dolphins are forever reliving their glory days of '84 and '72 respectively, the Cardinals were only fun in the mid '70s and maybe when Kurt Warner was there, the Browns are just stupid, the Jets perenially disappoint, and the Commanders suffer from having terrible ownership. The Lions might get good.

[HarleyDog]

(01-31-2023, 10:44 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Maybe it's also partly Mike Brown and his lack of charisma?

The organization has a history of being cheap. Specially in the early days of Mike Brown. Players who played here were open about how cheap the team was and when you don't spend money, it's easily perceived as a team that doesn't want to win. I seem to remember Houshmandzadeh saying they had used jockstraps, no bottled water or Gatorade in the locker room. They had a water fountain. I doubt the peoples view of the FO was reminiscent of the Charlestown Chiefs in the movie Slap Shot, but sure it has something to do with how we are perceived today. Add to that, Mike Brown voting no on basically everything the NFL wants to do/change.

[Ravage]

(01-31-2023, 09:57 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: So why didn't the media try to talk Herbert, Allen, Lawrence or Mahomes out of signing with those teams? Why does it feel like the Bengals get dismissed more than any of these teams?

How is the Chiefs getting Reid and Mahomes any different than us getting Zac and Burrow? Neither franchise had a great history prior to getting them.

Interesting numbers, nice work!

Why don't the media crap on the other teams as much? Well, they kind of do, we just don't notice it as much because we're not sensitive to it unless it's about the Bengals. Allow me to demonstrate:

- No one in the media that I can recall blasted either Barry Sanders or Calvin Johnson for retiring early to get away from the Lions. Some weren't happy, but even they had a aura of "I don't like it, but I completely understand".
- Everyone makes fun of the Jets & Browns...perpetually.
- No one in the media outside of San Diego really batted an eye or complained when Eli Manning refused to play there and forced the draft day trade to the Giants. Hell, there wasn't even THAT much of an uproar nationally when they moved back to L.A. 
- When Kurt Warner took the Cardinals to the Super Bowl it was treated as the rare, reality shattering event that it was, much like the Bengals trip last year. Remember "THEY ARE WHO WE THOUGHT THEY WERE!!!!"? The story was Dennis Green's epic blowup, not that the Cardinals melted down. The Cardinals melting down was just expected.
- The media is constantly bringing up the endless list of Vikings failures in the playoffs, or questioning if they'll be able to do anything when they get there. Gary Anderson's perfect 1998 regular season ending in a FG miss in the NFC Championship comes immediately to mind.
- 28-3...
- The Urban Meyer Experience 2021...
- Remember Marty Schottenheimer? Remember how he just couldn't win a playoff game? He was the OG Marvin Lewis, and the Chiefs got plenty of mocking back in the 90's. They seem to get a pass because they always SEEM to be on the cusp of something even when they're not. So they rarely actually bottom out and wind up in the top 5 of the draft. That's my guess as to why they get a pass. That and all the old clips of Hank Stram NFL Films loves to replay endlessly ("Matriculate the ball down the field!")

Now, for some reason the media for all my life at least just loves the Bills. Early 90's? Media was slobbering all over them. Before the Music City Miracle sent the Bills home, the media was intoxicated with Flutie Mania (Flutie didn't start that game though). For some reason the media remains convinced that the Bills are a super-team despite not making it out of the divisional round the last two years and not making a Super Bowl since they got annihilated by the Cowboys 52-17 in 1993. That obsession by the media I cannot explain.

The Texans are still young-ish as a franchise, they've had success when they get to the playoffs, and they have had a truly Nation-wide superstar in J.J. Watt. That buys a bit of a cushion from the media.

The Titans/Oilers aren't a young franchise, and they're more known for their playoff failures (Frank Reich's comeback, 1 yard short) than they are for their successes (Music City Miracle). However, they keep finding major superstars and the media seems to value that higher than they de-value the team for squandering most of their careers (Earl Campbell, Warren Moon, Steve McNair, Eddie George, Jevon Kearse, Chris Johnson, Derrick Henry).

The Panthers have had multiple Super Bowl runs, including one REALLY early in their existence. As such, the loser label just never stuck as a media narrative.

I think that covers all of them. The media are crap to most everyone, we just notice it when it's aimed at our team. It doesn't help that Mike Brown rarely does any media availability, as opposed to owners like Jerry Jones, Jim Irsay & Bob Kraft who seem to always be in the news or getting interviewed. When you're friendly with the media, the media is friendly to you. Mike hasn't done himself or his team many favors in that regard, but who cares what the media think anyway?

[*bengalfan74*]

(01-31-2023, 09:57 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The media seems to paint the Bengals as an abysmal franchise. Tbh, I don't think they down any other team quite like the Bengals. I'm under no delusion that the Bengals were one of the better teams by any stretch, but were we the worst? Or even bottom 5?

So why didn't the media try to talk Herbert, Allen, Lawrence or Mahomes out of signing with those teams? Why does it feel like the Bengals get dismissed more than any of these teams?

How is the Chiefs getting Reid and Mahomes any different than us getting Zac and Burrow? Neither franchise had a great history prior to getting them.

Good post Shake

I haven't read the entire thread, however. We didn't really get blasted near as much nationally back in the 70's and 80's. Of course we didn't have the internet and social media then either. IMHO the Bengals suck narrative got started with the arrival of the MB era. No shocker huh? Most of those 90's teams were just so very bad. The highlight tape of oh hell what QB was that? throwing the 5 yards backwards pass kinda summed up those years and it became so easy to pile on.

And Mike himself didn't help anything with his supreme stubbornness and lack of oh Charissma on camera. His monotone interviews with the excitement of a tree sloth just added fuel to the fire.

Then the ML era started and he along with Palmer and Chad (mostly Chad) brought some respect to the Bengals 04-06 time. But then it fairly quickly fell back into "well it's still the same old Bengals haha" Then the Palmer leaving thing.

At the beginning of the Dalton era we started to gain a bit of respect. But then the 1 and dones kinda just made it worse. "Oh look the Bengals made the playoffs again LOL, who's gonna knock em out in the first round again LOAO". 

I believe for several reasons we just became the NFL media whipping boy. And we're only now getting out of it,kinda. I still believe we have to win it all to truly get the national media to let up.

[Ravage]

(01-31-2023, 10:00 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: 31 years was one of the most embarrassing droughts in all of sports. Thankfully it’s the Lions problem now.

The Cardinals went from 1947 to 1998 between playoff wins. 51 years, 4 different cities (Chicago, St. Louis, Phoenix, Glendale) between playoff wins. I'd argue that's a bit more embarrassing.

[XenoMorph]

(01-31-2023, 09:57 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The media seems to paint the Bengals as an abysmal franchise. Tbh, I don't think they down any other team quite like the Bengals. I'm under no delusion that the Bengals were one of the better teams by any stretch, but were we the worst? Or even bottom 5?

12 teams have never won a Super Bowl. Among those teams, the Bengals are one of 4 with multiple appearances.

From 1968 (the year the Bengals were founded) to 2019 (our last year without Joe), here is each non-champion's % of seasons making the playoffs:

Vikings - 57.7% (amazing that they haven't won one)
Titans - 36.5%
Texans - 33.3%
Panthers - 32.0%
Bills - 28.8%
Jags - 28.0%
Bengals - 26.9%
Falcons - 26.9%
Chargers - 26.9%
Browns - 26.5%
Lions - 23.1%
Cardinals - 15.4%

Now here's the % of seasons these teams won their division:

Vikings - 40.4%
Texans - 33.3%
Panthers - 24.0%
Bengals - 19.2%
Chargers - 19.2%
Browns - 16.3%
Jags - 16.0%
Cardinals - 15.4%
Bills - 13.5%
Falcons - 13.5%
Titans - 13.5%
Lions - 5.8%

Then you have some teams like the Jets that won 1 title (in the first year of the Bengals' existence), but they only have one SB appearance and 6 fewer division titles. Are they on a different level than the Bengals?

Also, I looked at the Chiefs for fun (and also bc I know they were nothing special prior to Reid and Mahomes), and they would be middle of the above pack in playoff appearances (14) and division titles (7) prior to Reid and Mahomes. They did win one SB way back in 1969 with Len Dawson.

So why didn't the media try to talk Herbert, Allen, Lawrence or Mahomes out of signing with those teams? Why does it feel like the Bengals get dismissed more than any of these teams?

How is the Chiefs getting Reid and Mahomes any different than us getting Zac and Burrow? Neither franchise had a great history prior to getting them.

ZT without Joe was really Really bad even with joe that first year wasnt that great... but its been better since

[WiregrassBenGal]

(02-01-2023, 10:53 AM)Ravage Wrote: The Cardinals went from 1947 to 1998 between playoff wins. 51 years, 4 different cities (Chicago, St. Louis, Phoenix, Glendale) between playoff wins. I'd argue that's a bit more embarrassing.

And that's another reason why they're on my list of miserable franchises. I forgot that for all the firepower they had in the mid-70s (they were fun to watch) they did one-and-dones in two seasons and missed out in 1976 with a 10-4 record just like the Bengals did that same year. 

[PCB Bengal Fan]

(01-31-2023, 10:56 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Mahommes was a project who was compared to Jay Cutler, pre draft:

Overview
Mahomes is a big, confident quarterback who brings a variety of physical tools to the party, but he's developed some bad habits and doesn't have a very repeatable process as a passer. Mahomes' ability to improvise and extend plays can lead to big plays for his offense, but he will have to prove he can operate with better anticipation and be willing to take what the defense gives him in order to win from the pocket. Mahomes will be a work in progress, but he's a high ceiling, low floor prospect.


So you had a player with issues, but massive upside and he was taken by the Chiefs who planned to sit him behind a veteran QB in Alex Smith where he could be developed by a QB guru in Andy Reid.

As for the franchise of the Chiefs, well I mean they at least brought people in and out.  The knock against the Bengals was that they had a 30 years playoff drought that involved a lot of "staying the course."  When we drafted Burrow we were a 2-14 team with a HC who looked to be in completely over his head and we hadn't won a playoff game since 1990 and we had the same stagnant/stubborn front office and owner running the show and saying stuff at press conferences that made Bengals fans groan.

It's hard to take Reid out of the Chiefs picture, because when he drafted Mahommes all 4 of his seasons as the HC in KC were winning seasons, with 3 playoff berths and a playoff win in there.  If the Chiefs had drafted Mahommes with Romeo Crenel going 2-14, then I think they're have gotten more grief, for sure.

This is why I think Mahomes is the most overrated QB in the league, the Chiefs won 10,11,12 games the 3 seasons before Pat took over. Joe took over a 2 win team without an Oline & made the SB in his second year. Coming off a devasting knee injury. I guess I don't buy into the running QB league, it's just a matter of time before Mahomes, Allen, Hurts, Watson, Jackson get seriously hurt.

[Roland]

(02-01-2023, 08:55 AM)WiregrassBenGal Wrote: My votes for the most miserable franchises of the NFL are (in no particular order): Arizona (should be called the Coyotes or Roadrunners) Cardinals, Detroit Lions, Cleveland Browns after 1999, New York Jets, Washington Commanders, Miami Dolphins, and Chicago Bears.

Yes, the Bengals completely stunk up the 90s but even then there were some fun moments such as the Jeff Blake aerial show, Boomer returning for a swan song, and some fun upsets. Akili Smith and David Klingler both show up on "worst NFL quarterbacks of all time" lists. Since about 2004, it has overall been pretty fun to be a Bengal's fan.

Of those miserable franchises, the Bears and Dolphins are forever reliving their glory days of '84 and '72 respectively, the Cardinals were only fun in the mid '70s and maybe when Kurt Warner was there, the Browns are just stupid, the Jets perenially disappoint, and the Commanders suffer from having terrible ownership. The Lions might get good.

Agreed, there were some fun times for those of us who love football in spite of all the gloom.  Some of Corey Dillon's epic performances come to mind.  Most of the Lewis era was pretty good if you could just forget about playoff losses until the post-season.

[*Nately120*]

(02-01-2023, 05:53 PM)PCB Bengal Fan Wrote: I guess I don't buy into the running QB league, it's just a matter of time before Mahomes, Allen, Hurts, Watson, Jackson get seriously hurt.

Well, Burrow was our leading rusher against KC and the guy even has the occasional designed run play.  

[Nicomo Cosca]

(02-01-2023, 05:53 PM)PCB Bengal Fan Wrote: This is why I think Mahomes is the most overrated QB in the league, the Chiefs won 10,11,12 games the 3 seasons before Pat took over. Joe took over a 2 win team without an Oline & made the SB in his second year. Coming off a devasting knee injury. I guess I don't buy into the running QB league, it's just a matter of time before Mahomes, Allen, Hurts, Watson, Jackson get seriously hurt.

Mahomes is not a “running QB.” He’s elusive and makes plays off script. Big difference.

[*Awful Llama*]

People keep bringing up the Cards and Lions, and while it's true that the Cards once possessed the longest playoff win drought, they not only broke that streak but were NFC Champs in 2008. The Lions? Well, the Lions went 33 seasons without a playoff win (1958-1990), won a divisional round playoff game in '91, then promptly strung together another 31 season-and-counting playoff win drought from 1992-2022. If you're a Lions fan and you remember witnessing two playoff wins in your lifetime, then you're at least in your seventies. Definitely puts our past failures in perspective.

[Shake n Blake]

(02-01-2023, 02:53 AM)pally Wrote: The dark years of the 90s set a narrative they have never escaped from. Bad teams, dysfunctional teams, no fans, fans with bags over their heads, CHEAP OWNER, etc. The narrative was expanded upon during the Marvin years to include out of control, thugs, criminals, and chokers on the big stage. Most reporters are too lazy to check out the reality and most shock jock sports talking heads don’t care if it’s changed. They will continue to bring up 30 year old narratives.

Some of that is changing with Joey and Zac. Though to put more behind them winning that big diamond ring would be a great next step

Signing JoeyB to a long term contract paying him millions of dollars is important too in changing outsiders tunes.

Great post. I think a big part of it is that we've never won a SB to rid the stench of the 90s.

(02-01-2023, 08:55 AM)WiregrassBenGal Wrote: My votes for the most miserable franchises of the NFL are (in no particular order): Arizona (should be called the Coyotes or Roadrunners) Cardinals, Detroit Lions, Cleveland Browns after 1999, New York Jets, Washington Commanders, Miami Dolphins, and Chicago Bears.

Yes, the Bengals completely stunk up the 90s but even then there were some fun moments such as the Jeff Blake aerial show, Boomer returning for a swan song, and some fun upsets. Akili Smith and David Klingler both show up on "worst NFL quarterbacks of all time" lists. Since about 2004, it has overall been pretty fun to be a Bengal's fan.

Of those miserable franchises, the Bears and Dolphins are forever reliving their glory days of '84 and '72 respectively, the Cardinals were only fun in the mid '70s and maybe when Kurt Warner was there, the Browns are just stupid, the Jets perenially disappoint, and the Commanders suffer from having terrible ownership. The Lions might get good.

I'm with ya. I definitely think there are several teams with histories that are definitely worse than ours, and based on our playoff appearances, division titles and SB runs (pre-Burrow), I would put us right on par with teams like the Chargers and Falcons.

But we get lumped at the bottom with the Lions. At least it seems that way.

(02-01-2023, 10:42 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: The organization has a history of being cheap. Specially in the early days of Mike Brown. Players who played here were open about how cheap the team was and when you don't spend money, it's easily perceived as a team that doesn't want to win. I seem to remember Houshmandzadeh saying they had used jockstraps, no bottled water or Gatorade in the locker room. They had a water fountain. I doubt the peoples view of the FO was reminiscent of the Charlestown Chiefs in the movie Slap Shot, but sure it has something to do with how we are perceived today. Add to that, Mike Brown voting no on basically everything the NFL wants to do/change.

Mike Brown is probably a huge factor, agreed. Old stigmas die hard.

(02-01-2023, 08:55 PM)Awful Llama Wrote: People keep bringing up the Cards and Lions, and while it's true that the Cards once possessed the longest playoff win drought, they not only broke that streak but were NFC Champs in 2008. The Lions? Well, the Lions went 33 seasons without a playoff win (1958-1990), won a divisional round playoff game in '91, then promptly strung together another 31 season-and-counting playoff win drought from 1992-2022. If you're a Lions fan and you remember witnessing two playoff wins in your lifetime, then you're at least in your seventies. Definitely puts our past failures in perspective.

The 2 streaks that jumped out the most when I was researching all this crap was the Lions' playoff droughts, the Cardinals playoff drought (and overall lack of success sans Kurt Warner) and the 34 year division title drought by the Browns that Essex mentioned.

Stuff like this is why I look at the Marvin years and our SB runs in the 80s and question whether we should really be lumped in with such teams. I bashed Marv as much as anyone, but he did have an overall winning record in 16 years. 131-122-3.

[Ravage]

(02-01-2023, 01:47 PM)WiregrassBenGal Wrote: And that's another reason why they're on my list of miserable franchises. I forgot that for all the firepower they had in the mid-70s (they were fun to watch) they did one-and-dones in two seasons and missed out in 1976 with a 10-4 record just like the Bengals did that same year. 

The 70's were just brutal until the 2nd wild card got brought in for the last two years of the decade. Plus the lack of free agency just created seemingly endless dynasties within each division.

70's playoff appearance totals:
Division: 

AFC E: BAL 4, MIA 5, NE 1
AFC C: CIN 2, CLE 1, PIT 7
AFC W: OAK 6,KC 1,DEN 2,SD 1
NFC E: DAL 7, WAS 1, STL 2
NFC C: MIN 8, GB 1, TB 1
NFC W: SF 3, LAR 7

Wild Card: 
AFC E (5): MIA 2, BAL, BUF, NE 
AFC C (5): CLE, PIT, CIN, HOU 2*
AFC W (2): OAK, DEN*
NFC E (8): WAS 4, DAL 2, PHI 2*
NFC C (3): DET, CHI 2*
NFC W (1): ATL 


Total appearances:
9 - Dallas 
8 - Minnesota, Pittsburgh
7 - LA Rams, Miami, Oakland
5 - Baltimore, Washington
3 - SF, Cincinnati, Denver*
2 - Cleveland, New England, St Louis Cardinals, Houston*, Philadelphia*, Chicago*
1 - Green Bay, Tampa Bay, Buffalo, KC, San Diego, Detroit, Atlanta.

* denotes that the team captured the 2nd WC spot in either 78-79/79-80 playoffs that didn't exist the rest of the decade.