Ben Baby's "Three things to watch for the Bengals this offseason"

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(02-10-2023, 10:19 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: hold on, let me just add the best tight end in the NFC to the bengals

Amazing how you bolded it, yet then completely ignored the word "type" in my post in a successful effort to contribute nothing. The type of TE who is competent in blocking and receiving, the George Kittle type. Not an oversized WR TE, the Travis Kelce type, and not an undersized OL TE, the Drew Sample type.

[Frank Booth]

(02-11-2023, 01:03 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Amazing how you bolded it, yet then completely ignored the word "type" in my post in a successful effort to contribute nothing. The type of TE who is competent in blocking and receiving, the George Kittle type. Not an oversized WR TE, the Travis Kelce type, and not an undersized OL TE, the Drew Sample type.

Let me just bold this whole thing for ya

[lostpoet2]

The Bengals will never get a beat reporter better than Paul Dehner Jr., but fans can make do with the mediocre Ben Baby until he’s able to land a job back home in Dallas.

[Essex Johnson]

I think TE and Tackle are both important but tackles are more risk adverse, so don't reach in 1st round for a Tackle if they are not the fit, draft TE , if the clear Tackle is there then draft them come back with a solid TE in 2nd round.

[BengalsRocker]

(02-10-2023, 06:00 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: eifert was all-pro caliber when healthy. And Gresham was better than Cj. Dont put CJ in the Gresham category

(02-10-2023, 11:35 PM)Housh Wrote: So just f*** pro bowler Tyler Eifert then huh?

Gresham was a bum too?

Kroft is still on rosters

CJ was great for us

Chase Coffman wasn’t that good but he didn’t suck ass

Orson Charles was a bust

Jury still out on Drew Sample




Maybe you can say we’ve never drafted a bonafide superstar but we’ve drafted good TEs. Also factor in Eifert and Sample were the only TEs we took high so honestly i count that as 1 for 2 for drafting good TEs when we’ve done it high. That has to mean something

No shit!

How can anyone forget Eifert.  He had the elite talent but just had injury woes.

Gresham always gets shit upon from some fans.

Go back and watch him in his prime.

The guy was a beast (ironically what some call Hurst, which I like but wouldn't dare compare his play to Gresham).

Gresham was a physical TE as well as a decent pass catcher.

Unfortunately, his routes were not the best designed causing him to not get as many in-stride catches or seam plays.

You can come with stats but if you watch the tape on JG you'll see he was a damn good TE, the problem was there were other really good TEs coming in at that time too.

[Bengalbug]

(02-11-2023, 12:12 AM)MasonDT70 Wrote: Man Gresham gets disrespected too much around here. Everyone here likes Hurst it seems but even accounting for his missed games, Gresham averaged better from 2010-2014. He averaged 55 rec, 540 yards, 5 tds that 5 year stretch.

And tight end wasn’t utilized in cincy like it is in Other offensive schemes.

[*Synric*]

The Bengals saw more cover 2 shells than any other team in the NFL. The Tight End is one of the best weapons vs cover 2 because the mismatch in the middle of the field. A Tight End that can challenge the seams will force teams to vary their coverages more.

[coachmcneil71]

TE class is very deep. I agree that we should get Oline help. A good rookie TE will still be available.

DJ Reader is probably the best run stuffing DT in the league, so there's that to deal with.

Jackson played pretty well in the playoffs, and I think that Wilcox may have a breakout type of season if he re-signs. I don't understand why so many want to just give up on young talent. Dudes that are just now achieving an NFL type of body. The Eagles have been thanking us for the last 10 years for doing stupid shit like that.

[Frank Booth]

(02-11-2023, 03:02 PM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: TE class is very deep. I agree that we should get Oline help. A good rookie TE will still be available.

DJ Reader is probably the best run stuffing DT in the league, so there's that to deal with.

Jackson played pretty well in the playoffs, and I think that Wilcox may have a breakout type of season if he re-signs. I don't understand why so many want to just give up on young talent. Dudes that are just now achieving an NFL type of body. The Eagles have been thanking us for the last 10 years for doing stupid shit like that.

Wilcox? Break out? That guy is somehow even more clumsy than Sample. I really think the guy has 2 left feet. He’s a 3rd stringer for a reason

[*rfaulk34*]

(02-11-2023, 10:27 AM)Synric Wrote: The Bengals saw more cover 2 shells than any other team in the NFL. The Tight End is one of the best weapons vs cover 2 because the mismatch in the middle of the field. A Tight End that can challenge the seams will force teams to vary their coverages more.

I don't see why Hurst couldn't exploit that. Is this more an offensive scheme problem? A QB not taking advantage problem? Or does Hurst not have the short area quickness to do the job?

[*rfaulk34*]

(02-11-2023, 03:25 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Wilcox? Break out? That guy is somehow even more clumsy than Sample. I really think the guy has 2 left feet. He’s a 3rd stringer for a reason

He's not more clumsy than Sample but he's not a noticible upgrade to him. A little better but not much. 

[*michaelsean*]

(02-11-2023, 09:49 AM)BengalsRocker Wrote: No shit!

How can anyone forget Eifert.  He had the elite talent but just had injury woes.

Gresham always gets shit upon from some fans.

Go back and watch him in his prime.

The guy was a beast (ironically what some call Hurst, which I like but wouldn't dare compare his play to Gresham).

Gresham was a physical TE as well as a decent pass catcher.

Unfortunately, his routes were not the best designed causing him to not get as many in-stride catches or seam plays.

You can come with stats but if you watch the tape on JG you'll see he was a damn good TE, the problem was there were other really good TEs coming in at that time too.

People knock on Gresham because he seemed (don’t even know if it’s true statistically)to get a lot of penalties. But there should be no doubting hat he had skills.

[SunsetBengal]

(02-10-2023, 10:12 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Never heard of a player being able to positively in every aspect of your offense spun as a negative thing before. 

There's nothing bad about a guy who can block like a small OL in both the run and pass game, while catching passes like a #2-3 WR, and can be a huge threat in the redzone... and he can do that pass blocking and catching all on the same play. All while being just a massive mismatch problem for defenses. 

If you can add a George Kittle type TE, do it. He will help your offense in every facet imaginable.

And, at what point will the Bengals suddenly change their offensive philosophy to include the TE as an integral part of their offense?

I'm not against having a great TE on the team, I'm just saying find that gem in the middle of the draft and beef up the trenches with the high picks.

[Soonerpeace]

(02-11-2023, 05:57 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: And, at what point will the Bengals suddenly change their offensive philosophy to include the TE as an integral part of their offense?

I'm not against having a great TE on the team, I'm just saying find that gem in the middle of the draft and beef up the trenches with the high picks.

Well Taylor loves the tight end. If you look at Joe he likes 4 wide or even 5 wide. I’m pretty sure because of Hurst’s injury they didn’t get to a lot of stuff

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(02-11-2023, 05:57 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: And, at what point will the Bengals suddenly change their offensive philosophy to include the TE as an integral part of their offense?

I'm not against having a great TE on the team, I'm just saying find that gem in the middle of the draft and beef up the trenches with the high picks.

At the point where they get a good one rather than a mediocre one (Uzomah/Hurst).

If your best TE is your 5th best receiving option, your TE isn't going to put up huge passing numbers. If they're your 3rd best, they're going to put up some good numbers. Are we honestly expecting the Bengals offense to operate as if Wilcox and Asiasi are good? Do we WANT them to get 40 targets each?

I think this whole "TE offensive philosophy" thing is VASTLY overblown. I will point out that before Sample got hurt, the Bengals started 2 TEs in both of their first 2 games in 2022. In 2021, the Bengals started 2 TEs in 7 of the 16 games they played their starters in. 

Heck, Uzomah and Sample combined for 1,261 offensive snaps in 2021. Tee Higgins and Tyler Boyd combined for 1,564. It's less, but it's probably not nearly as much less as many people would assume. In 2019, Eifert was snap limited by them trying to make sure he didn't fall back apart, but they used him and Uzomah both. The Bengals will use TEs. They just haven't had any good ones since Gresham and (when rarely healthy) Eifert.

[WVUHomer]

(02-11-2023, 06:59 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: At the point where they get a good one rather than a mediocre one (Uzomah/Hurst).

If your best TE is your 5th best receiving option, your TE isn't going to put up huge passing numbers. If they're your 3rd best, they're going to put up some good numbers. Are we honestly expecting the Bengals offense to operate as if Wilcox and Asiasi are good? Do we WANT them to get 40 targets each?

I think this whole "TE offensive philosophy" thing is VASTLY overblown. I will point out that before Sample got hurt, the Bengals started 2 TEs in both of their first 2 games in 2022. In 2021, the Bengals started 2 TEs in 7 of the 16 games they played their starters in. 

Heck, Uzomah and Sample combined for 1,261 offensive snaps in 2021. Tee Higgins and Tyler Boyd combined for 1,564. It's less, but it's probably not nearly as much less as many people would assume. In 2019, Eifert was snap limited by them trying to make sure he didn't fall back apart, but they used him and Uzomah both. The Bengals will use TEs. They just haven't had any good ones since Gresham and (when rarely healthy) Eifert.

Considering those were probably our two worst statistical weeks in the past 5 years (don't quote me on that just making an exaggerated point), I don't think that's the right mindset to take with saying we like 2 TE sets. Especially considering how bad our OL was looking even with the TEs out there.

Actually, the fact we had more athletically limited people out there may have hurt our OL by making JB hold it just that much longer rather than spreading 4-5 wide out.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(02-11-2023, 07:26 PM)WVUHomer Wrote: Considering those were probably our two worst statistical weeks in the past 5 years (don't quote me on that just making an exaggerated point), I don't think that's the right mindset to take with saying we like 2 TE sets. Especially considering how bad our OL was looking even with the TEs out there.

Actually, the fact we had more athletically limited people out there may have hurt our OL by making JB hold it just that much longer rather than spreading 4-5 wide out.

Everyone on the offense looked terrible then, but I don't think it had anything to do with formation and everything to do with Zac deciding an OL that had never played a snap with even a single other member of the OL in a game didn't need any playing time in the preseason before going out and trying to go up against arguably two of the three best DLs in the NFL while trying to protect a QB coming off hospitalization.

As I said in my post, the Bengals started 2 TEs in 7 of the 16 games the starters played in 2021. The better the TEs they have, the more they'll use them.

Same way they were 29th in rushing YPC so they were 29th in rushes, In 2021 they were 26th in rushing YPC, and 19th in rushes. If they had a good RB, they'd run more. If they had good TEs, they'd use them more. 

Just because they don't use them when they're bad doesn't mean that there's some inherent inability to do so schematically. The 2nd draft pick ever in the Zac Taylor era, they used a 2nd round pick on a TE. It was a bad TE, but it doesn't change they fact they tried to get another good one despite CJ Uzomah coming off a 43/439/3 season and re-signing Eifert. He still used a 2nd round pick on a 3rd TE.

[*Synric*]

(02-11-2023, 04:39 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I don't see why Hurst couldn't exploit that. Is this more an offensive scheme problem? A QB not taking advantage problem? Or does Hurst not have the short area quickness to do the job?

Hayden Hurst does a great job in those short and intermediate zones. He really doesn't have the speed to win consistently up the seam or in man coverage. He also doesnt have the speed and wiggle to be very dangerous after the catch.

Hurst is a solid option if he doesnt price himself out of Cincy he is choice one. Hurst and Burrow were really developing a connection and you can see how Burrow and a high quality Tight End could be a big time connection. Luke Musgrave is probably the most dynamic TE in this draft class and I wouldnt hate that pick at 28 because I know the offensive skill positions will be going through a turnover the next couple years and a dynamic TE can make that transition easier.

[Southpaw Frerotte]

(02-10-2023, 11:35 PM)Housh Wrote: So just f*** pro bowler Tyler Eifert then huh?

Gresham was a bum too?

Kroft is still on rosters

CJ was great for us

Chase Coffman wasn’t that good but he didn’t suck ass

Orson Charles was a bust

Jury still out on Drew Sample




Maybe you can say we’ve never drafted a bonafide superstar but we’ve drafted good TEs. Also factor in Eifert and Sample were the only TEs we took high so honestly i count that as 1 for 2 for drafting good TEs when we’ve done it high. That has to mean something

Sample is a bum. Lol if the jury is still out on him, why is this even a discussion?

[*rfaulk34*]

(02-11-2023, 08:39 PM)Synric Wrote: Hayden Hurst does a great job in those short and intermediate zones. He really doesn't have the speed to win consistently up the seam or in man coverage. He also doesnt have the speed and wiggle to be very dangerous after the catch.

Hurst is a solid option if he doesnt price himself out of Cincy he is choice one. Hurst and Burrow were really developing a connection and you can see how Burrow and a high quality Tight End could be a big time connection. Luke Musgrave is probably the most dynamic TE in this draft class and I wouldnt hate that pick at 28 because I know the offensive skill positions will be going through a turnover the next couple years and a dynamic TE can make that transition easier.

Up to this point, i still can't talk myself into taking a TE in the first. I was totally on board with adding weapons over blocking when we took Chase. Right now, it just seems superfluous to add another target on the offense when the most important thing they can do is get guys and guys and more guys for the offensive line. 

I think signing Hurst will be pretty easy and we go into next year with the same receiving skill group. I'm all for a Mixon restructure or cut and going cheaper RBBC. I just really really really think they need to focus on the Oline first. I think they shouldn't be thinking of any other position group until the Oline has been addressed and addressed again (speaking in terms of FA and draft). 

Losing Bates and potentially Pratt will be a ding, but they have a couple guys to step in who could fill the shoes admirably. The other guys they should bring back, none of them should break the bank and then they're running it back next year with mostly the same team, with a couple key upgrades.