Jonah Williams Requests Trade

[SunsetBengal]

(04-21-2023, 04:07 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote:  
If you cannot see the difference between the situation now and before we got Brown

I clearly see the difference in the situation.  The Bengals no longer feel like LT is in a vulnerable position.  With that said, I'd be very comfortable is Darnell Wright was the selection at #28, and feel like it would be tough for the Bengals to pass on him if he is there.

As far as Jackson Carman goes, he's going to have to show it for a season, in order for me to be a believer.  He flashed in the fluke snow game versus a very uninspired Bills defense, and then went against a Chiefs defense that had also played 19 games.  Carman had the fresh legs, of course he "held up" well.  All that I'm saying is that he needs to show it for the duration of a season, before I'm ready to count him as a completely reliable option.  Having Collins, Williams and Ford to fill in should Carman falter offers a bit of reassurance.  However, I don't see many situations where both Williams and Collins are on the team opening day, thus the cheap signing of Ford.

[casear2727]

(04-21-2023, 04:21 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I clearly see the difference in the situation.  The Bengals no longer feel like LT is in a vulnerable position.  With that said, I'd be very comfortable is Darnell Wright was the selection at #28, and feel like it would be tough for the Bengals to pass on him if he is there.

As far as Jackson Carman goes, he's going to have to show it for a season, in order for me to be a believer.  He flashed in the fluke snow game versus a very uninspired Bills defense, and then went against a Chiefs defense that had also played 19 games.  Carman had the fresh legs, of course he "held up" well.  All that I'm saying is that he needs to show it for the duration of a season, before I'm ready to count him as a completely reliable option.  Having Collins, Williams and Ford to fill in should Carman falter offers a bit of reassurance.  However, I don't see many situations where both Williams and Collins are on the team opening day, thus the cheap signing of Ford.

Im not sure why James Rapien and others keep saying this, "I don't see many situations where both Williams and Collins are on the team opening day"?

We wont trade Jonah for little to no value, he wont be cut, and cutting LC doesnt save us much money at all....

What is the concern?

[casear2727]

(04-21-2023, 03:25 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: If that were even close to being true, then the team would not have went out and picked up Orlando Brown Jr.  Perhaps a more accurate statement would be "the Bengals have a lot of bodies that play Tackle".  

Other than Brown at LT, the Bengals have

Jonah Williams- Can't stay healty, and around average for a LT when he is healty.
La'el Collins- Best days are behind him, chronic back problems, now a recovering knee patient.
Cody Ford- Hasn't done anything close to impressive thus far in his career.
Hakeem Adeneji- The guy tries, but he's just not that good.
Jackson Carman- Disappointment from day 1, flashed in fluke snow game versus uninspired Bills team.
D'Ante Smith- Who??  A developmental project that hasn't developed thus far.

Not exactly a murder's row of talent at the Tackle position.  A strong rookie should be able to make the squad, provide quality depth and make Smith, Adeneji, and one of Williams/Collins expendable.

(04-21-2023, 04:00 PM)Joelist Wrote: These are your opinions; they may not be the opinions of the Bengals braintrust. Right now we have 7 OT on active roster, sp we a;ready know three of them are gone. Drafting another means 4 of the current 7 are likely gone. I'm not opining on the merits of the players, just saying that absent a Jonah deal don't look for the Bengals to go OT early. 

His opinions?  Damn Joe those are the most real facts that exist about these guys. Can you dispute any of them?

[casear2727]

(04-21-2023, 04:07 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote:  
If you cannot see the difference between the situation now and before we got Brown, then IDK if further conversation on the subject is merited. Also, Carman was very good in pass pro vs KC in the title game. And reportedly reported in his best ever shape. Even limited last year, Collins was our best run blocker. 

I get not being thrilled with the non-Brown tackle options, but numerically speaking, no other position on the roster is close to this overloaded with bodies. Jonah and Collins both had their worst years last year, and we still won a bunch in a row with them there and got to the AFC title game with Carman, Adeniji, and Scharping starting, and almost won it. If Collins & Williams (or Cappa) are healthy, I think we are talking tickertape. 

Jonah is not gonna sit out & we do not necessarily need the cap space at this point. A top tier rook would be great, but there are only 4 likely to be better than Jonah/Collins this year. If those are gone, I'd rather shop elsewhere where the puckings aren't as slim and we have bigger needs (TE, CB, pass rush, RB). 

I dont understand? Why do you think they care about the number of bodies at a position in which many suck?  They dont.  

If Wright is gone (likely) Im all for a Blake Freeland at 60 and letting him sit a year. Kid has serious longterm potential. 

[bengals1969]

(04-21-2023, 11:34 PM)casear2727 Wrote: I dont understand? Why do you think they care about the number of bodies at a position in which many suck?  They dont.  

If Wright is gone (likely) Im all for a Blake Freeland at 60 and letting him sit a year. Kid has serious longterm potential. 

Collins remains on IR, probably for the season if not a medical settlement. Williams is gone next season so a later round OT is needed as a backup. Adeniji is hopeless. Carman is a reasonable contender at RT as he proved he has quick enough feet to contain good edge rushers as a LT. He certainly has the bulk and nasty streak to handle RT. Between he and Williams they covered this season. Bengals need to overhaul the backups since they’ve cost the team two Super Bowl wins.

[casear2727]

(04-22-2023, 12:36 AM)bengals1969 Wrote: Collins remains on IR, probably for the season if not a medical settlement. Williams is gone next season so a later round OT is needed as a backup. Adeniji is hopeless. Carman is a reasonable contender at RT as he proved he has quick enough feet to contain good edge rushers as a LT.  He certainly has the bulk and nasty streak to handle RT. Between he and Williams they covered this season. Bengals need to overhaul the backups since they’ve cost the team two Super Bowl wins.

My point is, if they can improve the room with better players they will do that, regardless of the numbers.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(04-21-2023, 04:21 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I clearly see the difference in the situation.  The Bengals no longer feel like LT is in a vulnerable position.  With that said, I'd be very comfortable is Darnell Wright was the selection at #28, and feel like it would be tough for the Bengals to pass on him if he is there.

As far as Jackson Carman goes, he's going to have to show it for a season, in order for me to be a believer.  He flashed in the fluke snow game versus a very uninspired Bills defense, and then went against a Chiefs defense that had also played 19 games.  Carman had the fresh legs, of course he "held up" well.  All that I'm saying is that he needs to show it for the duration of a season, before I'm ready to count him as a completely reliable option.  Having Collins, Williams and Ford to fill in should Carman falter offers a bit of reassurance.  However, I don't see many situations where both Williams and Collins are on the team opening day, thus the cheap signing of Ford.

Oh, I am with you on Wright. But I would not reach for a 2nd tier tackle (D. Jones, Mauch, Harrison, Duncan, Bergeron) in round 1. And I  think there is better value AND more pressing needs in rounds 2/3 at TE, CB, RB, DE, and DT. And a more pressing need at IOL and for more WR speed. If tackle does not happen early for me, I am comfortable rolling with what we have.  

As for Carman, Scharping & Adeniji had fresh legs vs KC, how did they look? Held up well, too, no doubt? Agree on doing it more consistently, but 3 PO games and he looked pretty good. More than passable. I think the odds that a Rd2/Rd3 OT we draft comes in and plays better than Carman (or Jonah, or Collins) are pretty slim.  

If Williams is traded, then we need another guy. 

[bengals1969]

(04-22-2023, 01:27 AM)casear2727 Wrote: My point is, if they can improve the room with better players they will do that, regardless of the numbers.

Sure and they are set up going into the draft to do that.  Opportunistic is the way they operate but they will be hamstrung on FA's next season so draft for 2024 and not 2023.  

[Joelist]

The point was with 7 OT on the roster already (no matter what WE think of them they are there) they probably are not looking at OT as a round 1 priority. If there is a Jonah trade and/or a Collins injury settlement obviously that can change. But their priority seems to be more either a RB or TE with more explosion to help them punish teams who sit in 2 high.

[Ell Prez]

(04-22-2023, 12:53 PM)Joelist Wrote: The point was with 7 OT on the roster already (no matter what WE think of them they are there) they probably are not looking at OT as a round 1 priority. If there is a Jonah trade and/or a Collins injury settlement obviously that can change. But their priority seems to be more either a RB or TE with more explosion to help them punish teams who sit in 2 high.

If you heard The OC talk in Locked on Bengals, it sounded like a rb in later rounds who can compliment Mixon. Any receiving threat, including TE would be a nice addition. But he said the most valuable positions are QB, wr, tackles, corners, edge. He said bpa.

My take, adding all that up, I don’t think it’s gonna be TE or RB, unless they are far above any other player on the board at 28.

I think it will most likely be defense. CB or DE.

[casear2727]

(04-23-2023, 12:27 AM)Ell Prez Wrote: If you heard The OC talk in Locked on Bengals, it sounded like a rb in later rounds who can compliment Mixon. Any receiving threat, including TE would be a nice addition. But he said the most valuable positions are QB, wr, tackles, corners, edge. He said bpa.

My take, adding all that up, I don’t think it’s gonna be TE or RB, unless they are far above any other player on the board at 28.

I think it will most likely be defense. CB or DE.

I watched Callahan as well.  It seemed that if he had his way it would Gibbs or Kincaid early.  He defitniely wants a dynamic RB and a TE that can run routes that put pressure on a defense.  Musgrave, LaPorta & Spears, Mitchell types.  Some on this board want Washington, but he did not seem to fit with what BC was saying.

[bengals1969]

(04-21-2023, 11:31 PM)casear2727 Wrote: His opinions?  Damn Joe those are the most real facts that exist about these guys. Can you dispute any of them?

I believe most those guys are gone in the weeks ahead. 6 spots already taken. Carman and Ford stay. So that’s eight and I bet they take a guy by end of draft so that’s 9 spots. If Price can be traded for value so can Jonah. I’m optimistic Carman can earn the RT spot. Who’s the backup LT?

[Ell Prez]

(04-23-2023, 01:03 AM)casear2727 Wrote: I watched Callahan as well.  It seemed that if he had his way it would Gibbs or Kincaid early.  He defitniely wants a dynamic RB and a TE that can run routes that put pressure on a defense.  Musgrave, LaPorta & Spears, Mitchell types.  Some on this board want Washington, but he did not seem to fit with what BC was saying.

That’s funny I didn’t get that sense at all lol. Not saying you’re wrong. It’s all for interpretation because it’s not like he came out and said “we want player X”.

When he talked about rb he said there are so many good players at one thing or another, it’s pick your flavor. And you can get good rb deeper in rounds, and they want someone who compliments Mixon, ie Perine role (3rd down back who can block, but also catch). He also said something like using a 1st round pick has to match positional value which was tackles, wr, cb, dl. To me that didn’t sound like he wanted Gibbs. Sounds like they will pick someone up round 3 or later.

However I don’t doubt they’ll pass on kinkaid if he’s there, he’s most likely bpa, but he didn’t say TE has the same positional value.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-23-2023, 12:27 AM)Ell Prez Wrote: If you heard The OC talk in Locked on Bengals, it sounded like a rb in later rounds who can compliment Mixon. Any receiving threat, including TE would be a nice addition. But he said the most valuable positions are QB, wr, tackles, corners, edge. He said bpa.

My take, adding all that up, I don’t think it’s gonna be TE or RB, unless they are far above any other player on the board at 28.

I think it will most likely be defense. CB or DE.

While I think that's fair, I won't put the possibility of a TE at 28 off the table since they've drafted Gresham and Eifert at 21.
Sure, that wasn't Taylor's coaching staff, but Tobin was there for those guys, so I think it's possible.

In a traditional sense though, it does typically favor QB and outside guys over inside guys for Rd 1 selections.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-23-2023, 01:03 AM)casear2727 Wrote: I watched Callahan as well.  It seemed that if he had his way it would Gibbs or Kincaid early.  He defitniely wants a dynamic RB and a TE that can run routes that put pressure on a defense.  Musgrave, LaPorta & Spears, Mitchell types.  Some on this board want Washington, but he did not seem to fit with what BC was saying.

That would be an interesting shift to how they've ran things the previous 4 years, although I've always wanted a TE to be more featured in the passing game, so I'm on board if it happens.

If they can get good enough blocking from their OL (I'll believe it when I see it) where they don't have to have their RB pass block as often, I'd love to see a more dynamic RB.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(04-21-2023, 11:34 PM)casear2727 Wrote: I dont understand? Why do you think they care about the number of bodies at a position in which many suck?  They dont.  

If Wright is gone (likely) Im all for a Blake Freeland at 60 and letting him sit a year. Kid has serious longterm potential. 

I don't get why this is hard to grasp. We only carry 4 OTs. We have 3 OTs on the roster with a LOT of starting experience in the NFL, and multiple good years (Brown, Williams, and Collins). Plus Carman, who flashed pretty well in the POs at his natural position. Plus, 2 more guys with good amounts NFL experience (Fird & Adeniji). That is 6 plus Smith. 

I get that Collins & Williams both had the worst years of their careers last year. And that is concerning. But I think injuries played a part for both. Jonah should be goid to go and Collins still could be. Let's look objectively at what we have and what the FO has done at OL..

 Brown is a 4 time Pro-Bowler who has not allowed a sack in 4 of the 5 PO runs he's been a part of. He us thexstarting LT. Period. One spot taken. 

Carman had some maturity issues the first year and did not transition to guard well. He played well vs KC and more than passably vs Buffalo & Baltimore back at tackle. And flashed a mean streak. At worst, he is a competent backup LT. At best, he continues to improve and challenges/takes over RT. Anyway, he is going nowhere. Two spots taken. 

Williams had a bad year last year playing on one leg after week 5, but 2021 & 2020 were league average at LT. Maybe even a smidge higher. 2021 surely. Yes, he was bad prior to week 5. So was Burrow. He was still good enough at LT for us to win 8 in a row, including vs KC, even on one leg. We picked up his 5th year option. Before Brown fell in our laps, all signs were the FO was good with starting him at LT next year. We did not pursue high level OTs in FA, even after Bates & Bell & Hurst bolted. After, we were good with him starting at RT. We gain nothing by cutting him, cap wise. But the bottom line is, all evidence points to the fact that the FO was comfortable with him being the starter prior to the trade request/Brown signing. Absent the request, 3 OT spots would be locked in. Absent an actual trade, 3 are. He is not gonna sit out. He'd lose $12.6 mil & still be under team control AND he'd be blackballed (I think those last two are true). 

That leaves one spot. Collins had had a nice career in Dallas albeit with some injury concerns. We were rightly excited to get him. He underperformed expectations. The offense (line AND Burrow) were terrible early. Still, he was our best run blocker AND we were good enough to be rolling into the POs with Collins at RT. Our line problems last year were not that the starters sucked, it was that 3 of them got hurt & 2 backups underperformed vs KC/Balt. 

I am more optimistic than most on Collins' recovery. When he initially got hurt, he thought he might be able to play next week. The scans revealed more damage. But he says the recovery is on schedule, less restrictive than the hip, and he is still shooting for opening day. If Collins is healthy, he is miles better than Ford, Adeniji, or Smith. He'd have an iron grip on the last OT spot. But he isn't. 

Even assuming he starts on IR/PUP, I would not cut him. His contract is structured (so I hear) so that if he is not on the 53, the cap hit is lower. And he is signed for two more years. He played guard early on. We need depth there. I think the chances he misses the entire year are low. How he looks is an open question we cannot answer yet. Until I get a definite NO I am not cutting him. And even if I get a no on this year, the cost is fairly low & he is quality RT (and maybe even G) depth in 2024. I like the idea of a fresh Collins bolstering us late in the year. Even if it is just jumbo sets, I think he can help situationally. 

Anywho, without a Jonah trade, 1 spot is open. The #4 OT spot. We have 3 candidates. We brought Ford in and specifically told him he could compete at RT. He has some exp at guard and coukd servexas OT4/OG4 until Collins is back or we draft more IOL help. He has a zero dead cap. Adeniji was is still here, and was decent save for the Balt/KC games. He has minimal dead cap. Smith is a total project who has shown nothing. $600k dead cap. Not great options. But as a possibly temporary #4 OT, I can live with it. 2 are likely gone unless Ford is #4 OG as well. 

Yes, we can get off all 3 pretry cheaply. But until Jonah gets traded, a draft pick is competing for the #4 OT spot. And #5 if Collins gets back. Likely not playing. Upgrading the #4 OT spot (if Collins is not ready) is not a huge flasing light of 8mmediate need. We have 4 candidates. The likelihood a rookie is better than the top 3 is slim. Once you get past Wright, real slim. Maybe D. Jones or Bergeron. Bergeron would be switching sides.  

We have other spots with more immediate needs. And/or worse depth.  I'd argue everything save LB, PK, and LS. 

TE1 needs filling and Sample/Asiasi suck worse than Carman/Collins/Ford. 

RB2 is open & Evans is iffy at RB4. 

QB2 is open. 

CB. Chido is also coming off injury, in his last year, and Jones/George/Davis ain't exactly proven CB depth.

At DL, Reader is in his last year and there is no replacement on roster.  BJ Hill makes $10 mil a year, and we don't get a ton of pass rush from him or DJ, nor Carter/Tupou/Tufele. We usually carry 5 DEs, and while Trey and Sam are good, and I like Ossai's growth and Sample's run D, more pass rusg is needed. If Gunter/Basham turned into Murphy, I'd do backflips.

Speaking of, Boyd is in his last year, and Irwin/Taylor/Morgan are like March of the Penguins when it comes to getting separation. Some non-Chase speed could do wonders. A big WR and a slot are needed, in my view. At least upgrade Morgan. 

IOL is more of a need. I like Carnan/Collins (by PO time) a lot more as depth than Schaping + nobody (or Ford/Adeniji) at guard or Hill at C. 

I like our S room more than most, but Hill has barely played, Anderson not at all, and Scott has started for 1 year. Thomas can mentor them for a year, but if he has to play a lot, we are in trouble. 

 Reserve DL play all the time, as does RB2, TE2, and CB4 in nickel. 

I know many disagree, but I just think unless it is a plug and play kind of guy (Wright), and Jonah stays, OT#4 is not a huge priority. Even when Jonah leaves next year, we still have Brown + Carman + Collins. 

Don't get me wrong, I see the long term issue at RT. If Wright falls in our lap at #28 I jump for joy & I trade Jonah for an extra Day 2 pick. And see what that $12.6 can do this year (though most good FAs are gone). If not, I am strongly inclined to keep him, land a  compensatory 3rd next year, and use the picks this year on guys who are likely to play more at TE, CB, DE, DT, and RB. Or upgrade the depth more at WR, or IOL. 

The draft class next year is likely gonna be better at OL and WR, we'll have a better shot then. And that's assuming Carman does not blossom. We don't need the $$$ at present.

Sorry for the treatise on the subject. It is the last I will say on it. Absent a Jonah trade, we are talking OT4 at best, and we have more urgent needs.

[Big_Ern]

(04-23-2023, 06:29 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: I don't get why this is hard to grasp. We only carry 4 OTs. We have 3 OTs on the roster with a LOT of starting experience in the NFL, and multiple good years (Brown, Williams, and Collins). Plus Carman, who flashed pretty well in the POs at his natural position. Plus, 2 more guys with good amounts NFL experience (Fird & Adeniji). That is 6 plus Smith. 

I get that Collins & Williams both had the worst years of their careers last year. And that is concerning. But I think injuries played a part for both. Jonah should be goid to go and Collins still could be. Let's look objectively at what we have and what the FO has done at OL..

 Brown is a 4 time Pro-Bowler who has not allowed a sack in 4 of the 5 PO runs he's been a part of. He us thexstarting LT. Period. One spot taken. 

Carman had some maturity issues the first year and did not transition to guard well. He played well vs KC and more than passably vs Buffalo & Baltimore back at tackle. And flashed a mean streak. At worst, he is a competent backup LT. At best, he continues to improve and challenges/takes over RT. Anyway, he is going nowhere. Two spots taken. 

Williams had a bad year last year playing on one leg after week 5, but 2021 & 2020 were league average at LT. Maybe even a smidge higher. 2021 surely. Yes, he was bad prior to week 5. So was Burrow. He was still good enough at LT for us to win 8 in a row, including vs KC, even on one leg. We picked up his 5th year option. Before Brown fell in our laps, all signs were the FO was good with starting him at LT next year. We did not pursue high level OTs in FA, even after Bates & Bell & Hurst bolted. After, we were good with him starting at RT. We gain nothing by cutting him, cap wise. But the bottom line is, all evidence points to the fact that the FO was comfortable with him being the starter prior to the trade request/Brown signing. Absent the request, 3 OT spots would be locked in. Absent an actual trade, 3 are. He is not gonna sit out. He'd lose $12.6 mil & still be under team control AND he'd be blackballed (I think those last two are true). 

That leaves one spot. Collins had had a nice career in Dallas albeit with some injury concerns. We were rightly excited to get him. He underperformed expectations. The offense (line AND Burrow) were terrible early. Still, he was our best run blocker AND we were good enough to be rolling into the POs with Collins at RT. Our line problems last year were not that the starters sucked, it was that 3 of them got hurt & 2 backups underperformed vs KC/Balt. 

I am more optimistic than most on Collins' recovery. When he initially got hurt, he thought he might be able to play next week. The scans revealed more damage. But he says the recovery is on schedule, less restrictive than the hip, and he is still shooting for opening day. If Collins is healthy, he is miles better than Ford, Adeniji, or Smith. He'd have an iron grip on the last OT spot. But he isn't. 

Even assuming he starts on IR/PUP, I would not cut him. His contract is structured (so I hear) so that if he is not on the 53, the cap hit is lower. And he is signed for two more years. He played guard early on. We need depth there. I think the chances he misses the entire year are low. How he looks is an open question we cannot answer yet. Until I get a definite NO I am not cutting him. And even if I get a no on this year, the cost is fairly low & he is quality RT (and maybe even G) depth in 2024. I like the idea of a fresh Collins bolstering us late in the year. Even if it is just jumbo sets, I think he can help situationally. 

Anywho, without a Jonah trade, 1 spot is open. The #4 OT spot. We have 3 candidates. We brought Ford in and specifically told him he could compete at RT. He has some exp at guard and coukd servexas OT4/OG4 until Collins is back or we draft more IOL help. He has a zero dead cap. Adeniji was is still here, and was decent save for the Balt/KC games. He has minimal dead cap. Smith is a total project who has shown nothing. $600k dead cap. Not great options. But as a possibly temporary #4 OT, I can live with it. 2 are likely gone unless Ford is #4 OG as well. 

Yes, we can get off all 3 pretry cheaply. But until Jonah gets traded, a draft pick is competing for the #4 OT spot. And #5 if Collins gets back. Likely not playing. Upgrading the #4 OT spot (if Collins is not ready) is not a huge flasing light of 8mmediate need. We have 4 candidates. The likelihood a rookie is better than the top 3 is slim. Once you get past Wright, real slim. Maybe D. Jones or Bergeron. Bergeron would be switching sides.  

We have other spots with more immediate needs. And/or worse depth.  I'd argue everything save LB, PK, and LS. 

TE1 needs filling and Sample/Asiasi suck worse than Carman/Collins/Ford. 

RB2 is open & Evans is iffy at RB4. 

QB2 is open. 

CB. Chido is also coming off injury, in his last year, and Jones/George/Davis ain't exactly proven CB depth.

At DL, Reader is in his last year and there is no replacement on roster.  BJ Hill makes $10 mil a year, and we don't get a ton of pass rush from him or DJ, nor Carter/Tupou/Tufele. We usually carry 5 DEs, and while Trey and Sam are good, and I like Ossai's growth and Sample's run D, more pass rusg is needed. If Gunter/Basham turned into Murphy, I'd do backflips.

Speaking of, Boyd is in his last year, and Irwin/Taylor/Morgan are like March of the Penguins when it comes to getting separation. Some non-Chase speed could do wonders. A big WR and a slot are needed, in my view. At least upgrade Morgan. 

IOL is more of a need. I like Carnan/Collins (by PO time) a lot more as depth than Schaping + nobody (or Ford/Adeniji) at guard or Hill at C. 

I like our S room more than most, but Hill has barely played, Anderson not at all, and Scott has started for 1 year. Thomas can mentor them for a year, but if he has to play a lot, we are in trouble. 

 Reserve DL play all the time, as does RB2, TE2, and CB4 in nickel. 

I know many disagree, but I just think unless it is a plug and play kind of guy (Wright), and Jonah stays, OT#4 is not a huge priority. Even when Jonah leaves next year, we still have Brown + Carman + Collins. 

Don't get me wrong, I see the long term issue at RT. If Wright falls in our lap at #28 I jump for joy & I trade Jonah for an extra Day 2 pick. And see what that $12.6 can do this year (though most good FAs are gone). If not, I am strongly inclined to keep him, land a  compensatory 3rd next year, and use the picks this year on guys who are likely to play more at TE, CB, DE, DT, and RB. Or upgrade the depth more at WR, or IOL. 

The draft class next year is likely gonna be better at OL and WR, we'll have a better shot then. And that's assuming Carman does not blossom. We don't need the $$$ at present.

Sorry for the treatise on the subject. It is the last I will say on it. Absent a Jonah trade, we are talking OT4 at best, and we have more urgent needs.

Good post. Maybe they find out in all of this Jonah is a guard. Like they found out Jackson is a tackle. 

[bengals1969]

(04-23-2023, 07:20 PM)Big_Ern Wrote: Good post. Maybe they find out in all of this Jonah is a guard. Like they found out Jackson is a tackle. 

The starters are set. RT is either Carman or Williams. We lost at LA and KC due to poor right side backup OL play. Adeniji was a turnstile at RT. No way the Bengals go into Sept with Adeniji, Smith. If they address OL next week, I bet it’s after first three picks. As you say someone high on the bengals board might drop and they jump sooner. Who knows. Drafting to beat Mahomes has to be a big factor in picks.

[casear2727]

(04-23-2023, 06:29 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: I don't get why this is hard to grasp. We only carry 4 OTs. We have 3 OTs on the roster with a LOT of starting experience in the NFL, and multiple good years (Brown, Williams, and Collins). Plus Carman, who flashed pretty well in the POs at his natural position. Plus, 2 more guys with good amounts NFL experience (Fird & Adeniji). That is 6 plus Smith. 

I get that Collins & Williams both had the worst years of their careers last year. And that is concerning. But I think injuries played a part for both. Jonah should be goid to go and Collins still could be. Let's look objectively at what we have and what the FO has done at OL..

 Brown is a 4 time Pro-Bowler who has not allowed a sack in 4 of the 5 PO runs he's been a part of. He us thexstarting LT. Period. One spot taken. 

Carman had some maturity issues the first year and did not transition to guard well. He played well vs KC and more than passably vs Buffalo & Baltimore back at tackle. And flashed a mean streak. At worst, he is a competent backup LT. At best, he continues to improve and challenges/takes over RT. Anyway, he is going nowhere. Two spots taken. 

Williams had a bad year last year playing on one leg after week 5, but 2021 & 2020 were league average at LT. Maybe even a smidge higher. 2021 surely. Yes, he was bad prior to week 5. So was Burrow. He was still good enough at LT for us to win 8 in a row, including vs KC, even on one leg. We picked up his 5th year option. Before Brown fell in our laps, all signs were the FO was good with starting him at LT next year. We did not pursue high level OTs in FA, even after Bates & Bell & Hurst bolted. After, we were good with him starting at RT. We gain nothing by cutting him, cap wise. But the bottom line is, all evidence points to the fact that the FO was comfortable with him being the starter prior to the trade request/Brown signing. Absent the request, 3 OT spots would be locked in. Absent an actual trade, 3 are. He is not gonna sit out. He'd lose $12.6 mil & still be under team control AND he'd be blackballed (I think those last two are true). 

That leaves one spot. Collins had had a nice career in Dallas albeit with some injury concerns. We were rightly excited to get him. He underperformed expectations. The offense (line AND Burrow) were terrible early. Still, he was our best run blocker AND we were good enough to be rolling into the POs with Collins at RT. Our line problems last year were not that the starters sucked, it was that 3 of them got hurt & 2 backups underperformed vs KC/Balt. 

I am more optimistic than most on Collins' recovery. When he initially got hurt, he thought he might be able to play next week. The scans revealed more damage. But he says the recovery is on schedule, less restrictive than the hip, and he is still shooting for opening day. If Collins is healthy, he is miles better than Ford, Adeniji, or Smith. He'd have an iron grip on the last OT spot. But he isn't. 

Even assuming he starts on IR/PUP, I would not cut him. His contract is structured (so I hear) so that if he is not on the 53, the cap hit is lower. And he is signed for two more years. He played guard early on. We need depth there. I think the chances he misses the entire year are low. How he looks is an open question we cannot answer yet. Until I get a definite NO I am not cutting him. And even if I get a no on this year, the cost is fairly low & he is quality RT (and maybe even G) depth in 2024. I like the idea of a fresh Collins bolstering us late in the year. Even if it is just jumbo sets, I think he can help situationally. 

Anywho, without a Jonah trade, 1 spot is open. The #4 OT spot. We have 3 candidates. We brought Ford in and specifically told him he could compete at RT. He has some exp at guard and coukd servexas OT4/OG4 until Collins is back or we draft more IOL help. He has a zero dead cap. Adeniji was is still here, and was decent save for the Balt/KC games. He has minimal dead cap. Smith is a total project who has shown nothing. $600k dead cap. Not great options. But as a possibly temporary #4 OT, I can live with it. 2 are likely gone unless Ford is #4 OG as well. 

Yes, we can get off all 3 pretry cheaply. But until Jonah gets traded, a draft pick is competing for the #4 OT spot. And #5 if Collins gets back. Likely not playing. Upgrading the #4 OT spot (if Collins is not ready) is not a huge flasing light of 8mmediate need. We have 4 candidates. The likelihood a rookie is better than the top 3 is slim. Once you get past Wright, real slim. Maybe D. Jones or Bergeron. Bergeron would be switching sides.  

We have other spots with more immediate needs. And/or worse depth.  I'd argue everything save LB, PK, and LS. 

TE1 needs filling and Sample/Asiasi suck worse than Carman/Collins/Ford. 

RB2 is open & Evans is iffy at RB4. 

QB2 is open. 

CB. Chido is also coming off injury, in his last year, and Jones/George/Davis ain't exactly proven CB depth.

At DL, Reader is in his last year and there is no replacement on roster.  BJ Hill makes $10 mil a year, and we don't get a ton of pass rush from him or DJ, nor Carter/Tupou/Tufele. We usually carry 5 DEs, and while Trey and Sam are good, and I like Ossai's growth and Sample's run D, more pass rusg is needed. If Gunter/Basham turned into Murphy, I'd do backflips.

Speaking of, Boyd is in his last year, and Irwin/Taylor/Morgan are like March of the Penguins when it comes to getting separation. Some non-Chase speed could do wonders. A big WR and a slot are needed, in my view. At least upgrade Morgan. 

IOL is more of a need. I like Carnan/Collins (by PO time) a lot more as depth than Schaping + nobody (or Ford/Adeniji) at guard or Hill at C. 

I like our S room more than most, but Hill has barely played, Anderson not at all, and Scott has started for 1 year. Thomas can mentor them for a year, but if he has to play a lot, we are in trouble. 

 Reserve DL play all the time, as does RB2, TE2, and CB4 in nickel. 

I know many disagree, but I just think unless it is a plug and play kind of guy (Wright), and Jonah stays, OT#4 is not a huge priority. Even when Jonah leaves next year, we still have Brown + Carman + Collins. 

Don't get me wrong, I see the long term issue at RT. If Wright falls in our lap at #28 I jump for joy & I trade Jonah for an extra Day 2 pick. And see what that $12.6 can do this year (though most good FAs are gone). If not, I am strongly inclined to keep him, land a  compensatory 3rd next year, and use the picks this year on guys who are likely to play more at TE, CB, DE, DT, and RB. Or upgrade the depth more at WR, or IOL. 

The draft class next year is likely gonna be better at OL and WR, we'll have a better shot then. And that's assuming Carman does not blossom. We don't need the $$$ at present.

Sorry for the treatise on the subject. It is the last I will say on it. Absent a Jonah trade, we are talking OT4 at best, and we have more urgent needs.

Because we need a long term solution to RT.  If Wright isnt available it likely wont be in this draft.  If he is there at 28 they could probably care less about who he replaces, outside of OBjr & Jonah.

[Big_Ern]

(04-23-2023, 08:29 PM)bengals1969 Wrote: The starters are set. RT is either Carman or Williams. We lost at LA and KC due to poor right side backup OL play. Adeniji was a turnstile at RT. No way the Bengals go into Sept with Adeniji, Smith. If they address OL next week, I bet it’s after first three picks. As you say someone high on the bengals board might drop and they jump sooner. Who knows. Drafting to beat Mahomes has to be a big factor in picks.

Oh ok, sorry coach. I had no idea you've already declared the starters. Yeah rg had nothing to do with the loss.