Irv Smith a Bengal

[*ochocincos*]

(03-28-2023, 08:04 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: One season of 500 yards can be had with most tight ends in the league.  Let’s just see how this plays out.  A 500 yard season is not a difference maker and not worthy of a first round pick.

Over the past 5 seasons, only up to 18 TEs each year have 500+ yards.

You made an assumption from my comment that I was saying a 1st rounder had to be spent to have a productive TE, but I never said that.
I was simply just stating a fact.

I am perfectly ok with taking a TE on Day 2.
I was just stating that teams who have spent a 1st round pick on a TE have gotten at least one 500+ yard season out of them.
And that isn't true for TEs taken in the later rounds in that same window.

[Housh]

(03-29-2023, 09:38 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Over the past 5 seasons, only up to 18 TEs each year have 500+ yards.

You made an assumption from my comment that I was saying a 1st rounder had to be spent to have a productive TE, but I never said that.
I was simply just stating a fact.

I am perfectly ok with taking a TE on Day 2.
I was just stating that teams who have spent a 1st round pick on a TE have gotten at least one 500+ yard season out of them.
And that isn't true for TEs taken in the later rounds in that same window.

Honestly I’d be fine with getting a day 3 TE like the UC kid. We really don’t need a monster at that position. Just need a guy that can find open spaces in zone, catch, and will be hard to tackle one on one on 3rd and shorts.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-29-2023, 10:24 AM)Housh Wrote: Honestly I’d be fine with getting a day 3 TE like the UC kid. We really don’t need a monster at that position. Just need a guy that can find open spaces in zone, catch, and will be hard to tackle one on one on 3rd and shorts.

Waiting until Day 3 really comes down to how much confidence people have in Irv Smith being the starter initially.
Personally, with Smith's injuries the past couple years and only being on a 1-year deal, I'd prefer not to wait until Day 3 to get a TE.

[Tomcat]

If Mayer is there at 28 i'm having a hard time passing him up and then look for a CB or Tackle in the 2nd. If we get him we're not hunting next year for a FA TE again

[XenoMorph]

(03-29-2023, 10:31 AM)Tomcat Wrote: If Mayer is there at 28 i'm having a hard time passing him up and then look for a CB or Tackle in the 2nd. If we get him we're not hunting next year for a FA TE again

Same especially since we might lose one or two of our top pass catchers over the next 2 years

[*Synric*]

(03-28-2023, 10:39 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: That’s true but as we saw in the Tyler Boyd TD one game and a Hayden Hurst TD on the goaline they show a play several times then change it up resulting in big plays. That was Oklahoma in there solid run from 2000-2005. The OC most of those years was a good friend of mine. He said the best OC’s weren’t necessarily the best play caller or trickster but one who decisively knew their matchup advantages well and wore it out. Each matchup throughout the lineup and then strategize how to set up big plays later in the game.

They do run some but its pretty significantly less than league average. Teams like the Chiefs and Chargers are always high on the play action not because they need it but because that playaction motion in shotgun will hold the linebackers for half a second allowing the receivers to get just that much deeper into their route. Motions getting guys on the move at the snap is just another type of matchup usually a speed matchup on the edge. 

Although it is funny watching teams react to Ja'Marr Chase in the backfield. He would line up and run a simple RB Curl from the backfield and half the defense would converge on him. 

[*Go Cards*]

(03-29-2023, 10:51 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: Same especially since we might lose one or two of our top pass catchers over the next 2 years

Agree 

those not wanting a early TE are most likely assuming Higgins is a lock to be re-signed and not seek a huge payday in FA. 

Can never have too many good players imo. 

[007BengalsFan]

(03-29-2023, 09:38 AM)ochocincos Wrote: ...I was just stating that teams who have spent a 1st round pick on a TE have gotten at least one 500+ yard season out of them.
And that isn't true for TEs taken in the later rounds in that same window.

The problem with that comparison is that teams investing 1st round draft picks in players are more likely to give their 1st round picks chances they wouldn't give later draft picks.

[*Synric*]

(03-28-2023, 10:16 PM)sandwedge Wrote: Who do you see in this year's class that would be perfect for that?

Alot of the guys you will see me talk about as receivers this year are YAC guys. Joe Burrow is arguably the most accurate QB in the NFL his timing and ball placement are nearly perfect every throw. He does a great job of giving his guys opportunities to make plays with the ball in their hands. While the Bengals were top 10 in YAC for a team the only player that really stands out in that regard is Ja'Marr Chase. (5.0 YAC/R and 10 broken tackles).


As for TEs. Darnell Washington is a very interesting prospect in the YAC department. He don't know how well he will transition to a runner but if you can get him the ball while he's running those long legs are gonna eat up 5 yards a step. 

Dalton Kincaid is a really smooth athlete and shows some shiftiness in space but I don't know how much he is going to shed guys physically in the NFL.

Michael Mayer is a really good solid receiver but he's more Tyler Boyd style middle of the field. Always open Always catches it but not very dynamic.

Luke Musgrave has the size burst and speed to be dangerous after the catch but we don't really know.

Sam LaPorta has some wiggle to him and does that kinda stuff alot at Iowa. Tested well he could actually look better in the NFL but even then I don't ever thing blocking is going to be his thing kinda like Hayden Hurst.

Tucker Kraft shows alot of YAC in the FCS but theres alot of work with Kraft he might not be a guy for a year or two.

Luke Schoonmaker tested very well but you don't see it in pads closer to Mayer but not the route runner. 

Brenton Strange is a YAC guy good burst and guys just bounce off him like they do Washington. He's shorter with a compact frame and a lower center of gravity.





Other YAC Receiving Options not TE.
Jahmyr Gibbs
Tyler Scott
Marvin Mims
Tyjae Spears

[*Synric*]

Speaking of Brenton Strange these are some nice routes quick feet stays low compact presents very little of his frame for defenders then flashes his numbers to the QB. Shows hands too.

Penn State pro day feat. Sean Clifford x Brenton Strange pic.twitter.com/hEnNg6i5Zs

— Onward Sports (@OnwardStSports) March 24, 2023

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-29-2023, 11:18 AM)Synric Wrote: Alot of the guys you will see me talk about as receivers this year are YAC guys. Joe Burrow is arguably the most accurate QB in the NFL his timing and ball placement are nearly perfect every throw. He does a great job of giving his guys opportunities to make plays with the ball in their hands. While the Bengals were top 10 in YAC for a team the only player that really stands out in that regard is Ja'Marr Chase. (5.0 YAC/R and 10 broken tackles).


As for TEs. Darnell Washington is a very interesting prospect in the YAC department. He don't know how well he will transition to a runner but if you can get him the ball while he's running those long legs are gonna eat up 5 yards a step. 

Dalton Kincaid is a really smooth athlete and shows some shiftiness in space but I don't know how much he is going to shed guys physically in the NFL.

Michael Mayer is a really good solid receiver but he's more Tyler Boyd style middle of the field. Always open Always catches it but not very dynamic.

Luke Musgrave has the size burst and speed to be dangerous after the catch but we don't really know.

Sam LaPorta has some wiggle to him and does that kinda stuff alot at Iowa. Tested well he could actually look better in the NFL but even then I don't ever thing blocking is going to be his thing kinda like Hayden Hurst.

Tucker Kraft shows alot of YAC in the FCS but theres alot of work with Kraft he might not be a guy for a year or two.

Luke Schoonmaker tested very well but you don't see it in pads closer to Mayer but not the route runner. 

Brenton Strange is a YAC guy good burst and guys just bounce off him like they do Washington. He's shorter with a compact frame and a lower center of gravity.





Other YAC Receiving Options not TE.
Jahmyr Gibbs
Tyler Scott
Marvin Mims
Tyjae Spears

(03-29-2023, 11:24 AM)Synric Wrote: Speaking of Brenton Strange these are some nice routes quick feet stays low compact presents very little of his frame for defenders then flashes his numbers to the QB. Shows hands too.

Penn State pro day feat. Sean Clifford x Brenton Strange pic.twitter.com/hEnNg6i5Zs

— Onward Sports (@OnwardStSports) March 24, 2023

Great posts on the players we could find that would fit our Offense as mismatches Synric. I know most want a RT like Darnell
Wright, but if he is not there a monster TE like Darnell Washington and a RB like Tyjae Spears sure wouldn't bother me early.

Love how Spears just bounces off of defenders and keeps going, amazing balance, honestly like Ja'Marr Chase in this aspect.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-29-2023, 11:18 AM)Synric Wrote: Alot of the guys you will see me talk about as receivers this year are YAC guys. Joe Burrow is arguably the most accurate QB in the NFL his timing and ball placement are nearly perfect every throw. He does a great job of giving his guys opportunities to make plays with the ball in their hands. While the Bengals were top 10 in YAC for a team the only player that really stands out in that regard is Ja'Marr Chase. (5.0 YAC/R and 10 broken tackles).


As for TEs. Darnell Washington is a very interesting prospect in the YAC department. He don't know how well he will transition to a runner but if you can get him the ball while he's running those long legs are gonna eat up 5 yards a step. 

Dalton Kincaid is a really smooth athlete and shows some shiftiness in space but I don't know how much he is going to shed guys physically in the NFL.

Michael Mayer is a really good solid receiver but he's more Tyler Boyd style middle of the field. Always open Always catches it but not very dynamic.

Luke Musgrave has the size burst and speed to be dangerous after the catch but we don't really know.

Sam LaPorta has some wiggle to him and does that kinda stuff alot at Iowa. Tested well he could actually look better in the NFL but even then I don't ever thing blocking is going to be his thing kinda like Hayden Hurst.

Tucker Kraft shows alot of YAC in the FCS but theres alot of work with Kraft he might not be a guy for a year or two.

Luke Schoonmaker tested very well but you don't see it in pads closer to Mayer but not the route runner. 

Brenton Strange is a YAC guy good burst and guys just bounce off him like they do Washington. He's shorter with a compact frame and a lower center of gravity.





Other YAC Receiving Options not TE.
Jahmyr Gibbs
Tyler Scott
Marvin Mims
Tyjae Spears

This has been pretty much my assessment of the TEs as well.

One thing of note is the Bengals don't deploy their TEs to pass block much at all.
Wilcox - 32 pass block snaps
Hurst - 16 pass block snaps
Asiasi - 16 pass block snaps
Sample - 9 pass block snaps
-------------------
Total - 73

They do quite a bit of run blocking though.
Wilcox - 285 run block snaps
Hurst - 149 run block snaps
Asiasi - 139 run block snaps
Sample - 18 run block snaps
--------------------
Total - 591

So the Bengals definitely depend on a TE being able to run block, but they have their TE go out on routes a majority of the time on passing snaps.
Bengals gotta get a TE who is willing and able to run block that is also not a liability as a pass catcher.

Mayer or Washington are two I feel comfortable getting, for sure.
LaPorta is my 3rd option, but a 2nd rounder only.
From tape I've watched on Kraft, he can block and can get YAC, but as you said he's coming from FCS and needs some development. Might not be ready to be TE1 as a rookie or even sophomore.
Schoonmaker reminds me of someone like Dawson Knox (optimistically) or maybe Tyler Kroft worst case. I think he'll be a solid TE2 with potential to be a solid TE1. But he's someone you take late 3rd or sometime in the 4th.
I see why some like Strange, but his YAC was just too close to Sample's to give me much confidence he'll be a 10+ YPC guy in the NFL. I feel like he'll be more in the 7-9 YPC range. If the Bengals don't mind that though, I think he can be an ok TE for the team. Same with Payne Durham.

[*Synric*]

(03-29-2023, 01:22 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I see why some like Strange, but his YAC was just too close to Sample's to give me much confidence he'll be a 10+ YPC guy in the NFL. I feel like he'll be more in the 7-9 YPC range. If the Bengals don't mind that though, I think he can be an ok TE for the team. Same with Payne Durham.

Strange reminds me of Gerald Everett but his thicker frame is going to lead to more YAC in the NFL than Everett. Strange also gives just that little bit more range as a blocker because I think he can survive as the Y while Everett is a really good blocker he is more H-Back/Slot move blocker type. Like Darnell Washington Strange is just growing as a receiver but was a top 10 run blocker and top 3 pass blocker both in both 2021 and 2022... He also lined up at Y H Slot and Fullback.


If the Bengals want Brenton Strange though they will likely have to take him at 92 because he most likely isn't going to make it to 131. 


Edit: Kyle Crabbs from locked on dolphins is doing in depth TE breakdowns. Crabbs was one of the founders of The Draft Network. So far he's done Strange, Musgrave, and LaPorta. I haven't heard the LaPorta one yet but the first two are good.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/locked-on-dolphins-daily-podcast-on-the-miami-dolphins/id1137170219

[*ochocincos*]

(03-29-2023, 01:40 PM)Synric Wrote: Strange reminds me of Gerald Everett but his thicker frame is going to lead to more YAC in the NFL than Everett. Strange also gives just that little bit more range as a blocker because I think he can survive as the Y while Everett while a really good blocker but is more H-Back/Slot move blocker type. Like Darnell Washington Strange is just growing as a receiver but was a top 10 run blocker and top 3 pass blocker both in both 2021 and 2022... He also lined up at Y H Slot and Fullback.


If the Bengals want Brenton Strange though they will likely have to take him at 92 because he most likely isn't going to make it to 131. 


Edit: Kyle Crabbs from locked on dolphins is doing TE breakdowns. Crabbs was one of the founders of The Draft Network. So far he's done Strange, Musgrave, and LaPorta. I haven't heard the LaPorta one yet but the first two are good.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/locked-on-dolphins-daily-podcast-on-the-miami-dolphins/id1137170219

Everett is a good comparison.
Everett though too is someone who isn't going to be among the Top 10 TEs really.
I don't watch nearly as much game tape as you and some others do, but I just have hesitation on Strange having one of the lower YPCs in college over these other guys. Everett at least had 14.8 YPC in college and multiple seasons with 500+ receiving yards to give more confidence as a pass catcher. Strange doesn't have that production so it's more hoping what you see on film ends up becoming true in the NFL.

[Tomcat]

(03-29-2023, 10:51 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: Same especially since we might lose one or two of our top pass catchers over the next 2 years

Mayer at 28

Avila, Mauch, Bergeron or Tippman at 60.

Brents, Ricks or whoever at 92.

I would be very happy with any of these in the first 3 picks.

[*Synric*]

(03-29-2023, 01:45 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Everett is a good comparison.
Everett though too is someone who isn't going to be among the Top 10 TEs really.
I don't watch nearly as much game tape as you and some others do, but I just have hesitation on Strange having one of the lower YPCs in college over these other guys. Everett at least had 14.8 YPC in college and multiple seasons with 500+ receiving yards to give more confidence as a pass catcher. Strange doesn't have that production so it's more hoping what you see on film ends up becoming true in the NFL.

Everett had that insane amount of broken tackles coming out of college everyone was worried wouldn't translate to the NFL and it never did. 

As for Strange his floor is what has him high on my board for the Bengals. His range/experience as a blocker and a YAC guy as a checkdown make him a good TE2 prospect. He is also an great athlete (One thing Penn State can do is recruit) and raw as a route runner so he has upside as a receiver. If the Bengals didn't get a TE in round 1 or 2 then I really like Strange at 92. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-29-2023, 01:49 PM)Tomcat Wrote: Mayer at 28

Avila, Mauch, Bergeron or Tippman at 60.

Brents, Ricks or whoever at 92.

I would be very happy with any of these in the first 3 picks.

I would put Mclendon RT Georgia in our thoughts at 60 as well. Good stuff Tomcat.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-29-2023, 01:59 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I would put Mclendon RT Georgia in our thoughts at 60 as well. Good stuff Tomcat.

McClendon I feel is so under the radar.
Starting RT for the the two-time National Champions.
All the focus is on Broderick Jones, and rightfully so, but McClendon is pretty sound.
He may not be a dominant guy, but I think he can become a solid RT in the NFL.
Not sure I'd spend a 2nd rounder on him though. Maybe a trade-back from 60 or trade-up from 92.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(03-29-2023, 02:03 PM)ochocincos Wrote: McClendon I feel is so under the radar.
Starting RT for the the two-time National Champions.
All the focus is on Broderick Jones, and rightfully so, but McClendon is pretty sound.
He may not be a dominant guy, but I think he can become a solid RT in the NFL.
Not sure I'd spend a 2nd rounder on him though. Maybe a trade-back from 60 or trade-up from 92.

Agreed. Mclendon even plays the position we have questions about on the OL. At the very least he would be good depth and competition.

All for a trade back from 60 and landing McClendon, would be a great move IMO.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

To me, I view Irv Smith as more of a receiving TE than a blocker. Due mostly to his lack of size and injury history. IDK if we keep 3 or 4 TEs, but if it is 3 (more likely), I cannot imagine 2 of them being catch heavy & blocking light. For this group, I kind of put Kincaid & LaPorta in that category. And guys like Davis Allen or Mallory later on. If we keep 4, then maybe there is room for another guy of that type.

Now, of course being able to do BOTH would be preferable. And maybe I'm selling Smith, Kincaid, and LaPorta short. But I think with Smith in the fold, it makes Mayer/Washington types more likely than smaller pass catchers. Unless we think the pass catcher is gonna be REALLY dynamic.