Vs Series: Takeo Spikes vs Vontaze Burfict

[Frank Booth]

(04-19-2023, 03:28 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I guess I was confused at the question. 

Is the question who had the better career? Or who was the better player? Like, if I had to start a team today, who would I take? Takeo or Tez? 

I'd take Tez for sure...not really taking into account any of the off the field stuff. 

But yeah, Takeo might have had a bettter Bengals career, I agree. 

Tez's problem was on the field

[WeezyBengal]

(04-19-2023, 03:31 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Tez's problem was on the field

Yeah, the extra circular non football related stuff is what I meant. 

[KillerGoose]

(04-19-2023, 03:28 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I guess I was confused at the question. 

Is the question who had the better career? Or who was the better player? Like, if I had to start a team today, who would I take? Takeo or Tez? 

I'd take Tez for sure...not really taking into account any of the off the field stuff. 

But yeah, Takeo might have had a bettter Bengals career, I agree. 

That's kind of the problem though, right? Vontaze didn't have off-the-field issues - it was all on the field. AFAIK, he was never suspended or fined for anything he did out of football. It was all things he did during a game. He was a penalty machine and often suspended. If he wasn't suspended, he was injured. He was very injury prone. Outside of his two first years, which were phenomenal, he barely played 50% of available games. 

If I was starting a team today, there are several linebackers I would take before I even considered Vontaze to be honest. He was just a negative asset. I think a lot of people adore him because of the "mindset" that he brought but that same mindset didn't fit the era he played in and was detrimental to the team. To be more clear, I think Takeo was the better player and had a better career. If Vontaze was able to play like he did his first two years, it would be no question. He was a force and didn't rack up penalties. That isn't the case, unfortunately. 

[Frank Booth]

(04-19-2023, 03:59 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: That's kind of the problem though, right? Vontaze didn't have off-the-field issues - it was all on the field. AFAIK, he was never suspended or fined for anything he did out of football. It was all things he did during a game. He was a penalty machine and often suspended. If he wasn't suspended, he was injured. He was very injury prone. Outside of his two first years, which were phenomenal, he barely played 50% of available games. 

If I was starting a team today, there are several linebackers I would take before I even considered Vontaze to be honest. He was just a negative asset. I think a lot of people adore him because of the "mindset" that he brought but that same mindset didn't fit the era he played in and was detrimental to the team. To be more clear, I think Takeo was the better player and had a better career. If Vontaze was able to play like he did his first two years, it would be no question. He was a force and didn't rack up penalties. That isn't the case, unfortunately. 

exactly. I'd take 2013 Burfict over Spikes, but that's it

[motoarch]

Burfict was amazing when he wasn't doing something stupid and he did a lot of stupid things.

That 2015 playoff game was a perfect example of his career.

He very nearly single handly won that gave for the team then caused them to lose it.

We can blame Hill for the fumble or porter for coming on to the field but I will always blame burfict for taking and intentional and unnecessary head shot on brown. And for that I can never be a burfict supporter. He may have been in the wrong era but I don't really care. I care that he caused more problems than he's hero plays helped.

And that stuff aside the guy missed like half of every season with injuries it seemed like. How's he helping you of hes not available?

[Housh]

(04-18-2023, 03:53 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Very similar career lengths with the Bengals (70ish games) and similar stats. One was a better QB of the defense, but lacked composure.

Who you got?

Idc how much better Vontaze’s prime was. I’m taking Takeo. Why would i take a guy whose going to miss games every season due to suspension and is a damn idiot who costs you playoff games

[Gdale_Bengal]

I’d take Takeo because of the neck.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(04-18-2023, 04:04 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Being old enough to have watched and remember both of them, I gotta go with Burfict.  If Burfict would have began his career 10 years earlier, he'd likely have been a hall of famer.  He had a passion for the game not often scene, and the ability to 'take over' a game, so long as he could stay on the right side of the officiating.

It's a shame that Vontaze had to play his career in a time when the league was in a serious transition towards player safety, as he would have been lauded as an all-time great back in the days of Lawrence Taylor and other such violent players.  I also feel like he got the short end of the stick when Mike Zimmer went on to become Head Coach of the Vikings.  I sort of feel like Zimmer had a way of communicating with Vontaze that enabled him to keep his emotions in check, and to stay focused on the game.  When Paully G. took over, Burfict was left to his own demons and they eventually got the best of him.

This right here......but, if for nothing else, he gets my vote for simply dishing back to the Stoolers for their years and years of cheap shots.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-18-2023, 08:42 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote: Spikes, he'd keep his cool in a playoff game.

To be fair, it was Adam Jones that lost his composure in the playoff game, not Burfict.
Burfict just made a planned shoulder hit to the chest, but when Brown landed he went down further than expected and it resulted in a head hit. I still to this day do not think the hit specifically to the head was intentional.
Where the play happened was right inside the 35 yard line, which would have given the Steelers a 1st down and close enough for a FG, so allowing Brown to catch and then make the tackle was essentially out of the question.

[KillerGoose]

(04-21-2023, 10:25 AM)ochocincos Wrote: To be fair, it was Adam Jones that lost his composure in the playoff game, not Burfict.
Burfict just made a planned shoulder hit to the chest, but when Brown landed he went down further than expected and it resulted in a head hit. I still to this day do not think the hit specifically to the head was intentional.
Where the play happened was right inside the 35 yard line, which would have given the Steelers a 1st down and close enough for a FG, so allowing Brown to catch and then make the tackle was essentially out of the question.

Yeah, I don't think that Burfict meant to hit Brown in the head specifically. He did intentionally hit him, though, and he was well aware that Brown wasn't catching that ball. It just goes back to him not fitting in the modern era - it was completely unnecessary. 

[*ochocincos*]

(04-21-2023, 11:26 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: Yeah, I don't think that Burfict meant to hit Brown in the head specifically. He did intentionally hit him, though, and he was well aware that Brown wasn't catching that ball. It just goes back to him not fitting in the modern era - it was completely unnecessary. 

True, he did intend to hit him, I just don't think specifically in the head/neck area, as it would have been in Brown's chest had he caught the ball and landed on his feet.
One could argue that Burfict didn't really have much time to abandon the hit because it was just about 1 second after the ball went through Brown's hands.
Had Brown caught that ball, the only way to prevent the first down was jarring the ball away with a hit after the catch was made.
It looks like Burfict had more time to react due to the slow-mo though, so I can see how (some) people may think Burfict intentionally went for the head/neck after the catch went through Brown's hands.

[*jason*]

(04-21-2023, 12:30 PM)ochocincos Wrote: True, he did intend to hit him, I just don't think specifically in the head/neck area, as it would have been in Brown's chest had he caught the ball and landed on his feet.
One could argue that Burfict didn't really have much time to abandon the hit because it was just about 1 second after the ball went through Brown's hands.
Had Brown caught that ball, the only way to prevent the first down was jarring the ball away with a hit after the catch was made.
It looks like Burfict had more time to react due to the slow-mo though, so I can see how (some) people may think Burfict intentionally went for the head/neck after the catch went through Brown's hands.

If you see that play from the reverse angle slowed down you can tell that Burfict hit him in the head intentionally. It's actually pretty amazing body control that he pulled it off.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-21-2023, 05:58 PM)jason Wrote: If you see that play from the reverse angle slowed down you can tell that Burfict hit him in the head intentionally. It's actually pretty amazing body control that he pulled it off.

I've watched the play from multiple angles.
I guess it's your determination of whether it was intentional or not.
Do you have a link for what you are talking about?

From the angles I've seen, I think you could argue Burfict couldn't have gotten completely out of the way due to his momentum and timing, so he brought his arm in to brace himself and try to avoid as best he could.
I guess my question is if someone doesn't make the catch with just 1 second before you come in contact with them and you're running full steam, what are you supposed to do instead?
I know I don't have that fast enough reaction time that I could have avoided contact, especially if I was already coming in with a plan to use my shoulder to hit a dude in the chest had he caught the ball.

[SunsetBengal]

(04-21-2023, 05:58 PM)jason Wrote: If you see that play from the reverse angle slowed down you can tell that Burfict hit him in the head intentionally. It's actually pretty amazing body control that he pulled it off.

Did you pull that quote from the Steelers board, on the night of the game?

[Frank Booth]

(04-21-2023, 07:06 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Did you pull that quote from the Steelers board, on the night of the game?

Lot of bengals fans got brainwashed after all the coverage and narratives

[*jason*]

(04-21-2023, 07:06 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Did you pull that quote from the Steelers board, on the night of the game?

No... I defended the hell outta him when it happened. Then I saw that angle. Again: amazing control of his body.

[*jason*]

(04-21-2023, 06:11 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I've watched the play from multiple angles.
I guess it's your determination of whether it was intentional or not.
Do you have a link for what you are talking about?

From the angles I've seen, I think you could argue Burfict couldn't have gotten completely out of the way due to his momentum and timing, so he brought his arm in to brace himself and try to avoid as best he could.
I guess my question is if someone doesn't make the catch with just 1 second before you come in contact with them and you're running full steam, what are you supposed to do instead?
I know I don't have that fast enough reaction time that I could have avoided contact, especially if I was already coming in with a plan to use my shoulder to hit a dude in the chest had he caught the ball.

I don't have a link... Not 100% positive where I saw it. May very well have been on some YouTube video about him. We definitely don't have the reaction time to pull up. We probably couldn't connect with our shoulder like that either. It sure looks like he lowers it just enough to get him.

[SunsetBengal]

(04-21-2023, 09:11 PM)jason Wrote: No... I defended the hell outta him when it happened.  Then I saw that angle. Again: amazing control of his body.

Breaking things down frame by frame has a way of making it appear that people are doing super human type of amazing things, when in reality they are hurtling through space with very little actual control of small body adjustments.

[*bfine32*]

(04-18-2023, 08:42 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote: Spikes, he'd keep his cool in a playoff game.

(04-21-2023, 10:25 AM)ochocincos Wrote: To be fair, it was Adam Jones that lost his composure in the playoff game, not Burfict.
Burfict just made a planned shoulder hit to the chest, but when Brown landed he went down further than expected and it resulted in a head hit. I still to this day do not think the hit specifically to the head was intentional.
Where the play happened was right inside the 35 yard line, which would have given the Steelers a 1st down and close enough for a FG, so allowing Brown to catch and then make the tackle was essentially out of the question.

To be fairer Spikes never played in a playoff game. His teams always went to the playoffs a year or 2 after he left. 

[TecmoBengals]

(04-23-2023, 10:42 AM)bfine32 Wrote: To be fairer Spikes never played in a playoff game. His teams always went to the playoffs a year or 2 after he left. 

Spikes is on my list of the many Bengals greats from the '90s and early 2000s who never played in a playoff games.