Johnny Wilson - the next Darren Waller?

[*ochocincos*]

Johnny Wilson is a WR at Florida St who is a big dude (6'7", 235 lb).
He is about the exact same size as Darren Waller in college.
While he's not doing a lot of inline blocking like a TE, Florida St TE coach was interviewed talking about that as a possibility.
https://www.tallahassee.com/story/sports/college/fsu/football/2022/08/19/fsu-football-coach-chris-thomsen-talks-tight-ends-johnny-wilson-and-more/10327322002/

Wilson is being talked about as a late 1st or early 2nd rounder right now.
I don't know how fast he ultimately will test, but he looks like he'd be fast among the TEs (probably in the 4.5-4.6 range) and he catches and moves like a bigger WR. He's far more fluid than a lot of TEs are.

With his receiving ability, size, and athleticism along with physical ability to block at least better than most WRs, could he be a good candidate to convert to TE like Darren Waller did?

[SunsetBengal]

Big WR from Fla. St.? I hope the dude turns out to be better than Auden Tate.

[*ochocincos*]

(05-12-2023, 06:21 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Big WR from Fla. St.?  I hope the dude turns out to be better than Auden Tate.

Tate's big issue was he couldn't separate, plus he was 10 lbs lighter than Wilson.
Looking at Tate's agility scores from the Combine back when he was drafted, he still scored poor in the shuttle and 3-cone even when compared to TEs.
Wilson I think has a much higher chance to succeed than Tate did.
Go watch some clips of Wilson and you'll see how much of a natural receiver he looks, as well as his speed and agility for a big guy.

With that said, if you took Tate's 2019 where he put up 575 yards, that'd actually be pretty solid for a TE.
Dude should probably have converted to TE after his first year, if not immediately upon entering the league.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-15-2023, 09:53 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Tate's big issue was he couldn't separate, plus he was 10 lbs lighter than Wilson.
Looking at Tate's agility scores from the Combine back when he was drafted, he still scored poor in the shuttle and 3-cone even when compared to TEs.
Wilson I think has a much higher chance to succeed than Tate did.
Go watch some clips of Wilson and you'll see how much of a natural receiver he looks, as well as his speed and agility for a big guy.

With that said, if you took Tate's 2019 where he put up 575 yards, that'd actually be pretty solid for a TE.
Dude should probably have converted to TE after his first year, if not immediately upon entering the league.

I actually had high hopes for Auden Tate, due to some eye-popping red zone highlights from his Fla. St. days.  I am partial to big bodied WRs because of their ability to win contested catches and draw DPI calls, so I am with you on hoping that Wilson can find his way into the fold with the Bengals offense.

[*ochocincos*]

(05-15-2023, 11:27 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I actually had high hopes for Auden Tate, due to some eye-popping red zone highlights from his Fla. St. days.  I am partial to big bodied WRs because of their ability to win contested catches and draw DPI calls, so I am with you on hoping that Wilson can find his way into the fold with the Bengals offense.

I didn't have overly high hopes for Tate, as he was just too ploddy to be someone who could produce well.
And you can't always rely on contested and/or spectacular catches every time. Ya gotta get separation to consistently produce.
Had he made the move to TE right away and worked on his blocking, he may have stood a chance to become a long-term guy in the league.
Instead, he pretty much fizzled out of the league after his contract ended with CIN after the 2021 season.

[*Synric*]

On some podcast I remember hearing there could be three 6'7 WRs in the 2024 draft class. Hype is already building that its supposed to be better than the last two draft classes but I think that is mostly because it could be a deep QB group.


A early day 3 QB might be on the table in 2024 too. Maybe the kid from Florida State Jordan Travis.

[Whatever]

(05-16-2023, 11:45 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I didn't have overly high hopes for Tate, as he was just too ploddy to be someone who could produce well.
And you can't always rely on contested and/or spectacular catches every time. Ya gotta get separation to consistently produce.
Had he made the move to TE right away and worked on his blocking, he may have stood a chance to become a long-term guy in the league.
Instead, he pretty much fizzled out of the league after his contract ended with CIN after the 2021 season.

Tate would never have cut it as a TE.  He would have probably been running high 4.7's and lost even more of more of his lateral agility and change of direction at 250+.  

[*ochocincos*]

(05-19-2023, 02:32 PM)Whatever Wrote: Tate would never have cut it as a TE.  He would have probably been running high 4.7's and lost even more of more of his lateral agility and change of direction at 250+.  

I think he could have as strictly a chain mover type.
Yes, I agree with you had he packed on even more weight he would have been even slower than he was, but I think he still could have contributed in the passing game.

Remember, Kyle Rudolph ran a 4.83 and had some solid seasons across a 12 year career.
Payne Durham, who many liked this past draft as a blocking guy who could make some catches and act as a TE2-type, ran a 4.87.

[Whatever]

(05-19-2023, 02:40 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I think he could have as strictly a chain mover type.
Yes, I agree with you had he packed on even more weight he would have been even slower than he was, but I think he still could have contributed in the passing game.

Remember, Kyle Rudolph ran a 4.83 and had some solid seasons across a 12 year career.
Payne Durham, who many liked this past draft as a blocking guy who could make some catches and act as a TE2-type, ran a 4.87.

Your chain mover types are also typically plus blockers.  Tate was never going to be a plus blocker, so there was no reason to convert him.  

I got so tired of the comparisons for Tate based on 40 time back when he was a hot topic.  Auden Tate isn't Kyle Rudolph, Anquan Boldin, or Jerry Rice.  He is Auden Tate.  He's a guy that made a few spectacular grabs and managed to hang onto the back end of an NFL roster for 4 years.  And honestly, there's nothing wrong with that.  What he accomplished still puts him in the top .001% of people to ever play football.  But there was no great what if with him.  

[*ochocincos*]

(05-19-2023, 05:17 PM)Whatever Wrote: Your chain mover types are also typically plus blockers.  Tate was never going to be a plus blocker, so there was no reason to convert him.  

I got so tired of the comparisons for Tate based on 40 time back when he was a hot topic.  Auden Tate isn't Kyle Rudolph, Anquan Boldin, or Jerry Rice.  He is Auden Tate.  He's a guy that made a few spectacular grabs and managed to hang onto the back end of an NFL roster for 4 years.  And honestly, there's nothing wrong with that.  What he accomplished still puts him in the top .001% of people to ever play football.  But there was no great what if with him.  

Why do you say he was "never" going to be a plus blocker, even if they tried?

[*Synric*]

(05-19-2023, 05:57 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Why do you say he was "never" going to be a plus blocker, even if they tried?

He was a bad blocker as a WR blocking corners. He was also a finesse WR at his size. He needed to use his hands and body more because he couldnt create separation with his speed or quickness. He's a guy you'd think would be good at back shoulder jump balls but he wasn't because littler corners pushed him around. 

Johnny Wilson is not that guy he is a very physical player. He lives off that back shoulder throw such great body control.

[Whatever]

(05-19-2023, 05:57 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Why do you say he was "never" going to be a plus blocker, even if they tried?

What did you ever see out of him that makes you think he could?  He would already be looking at a massive uphill battle just to be even serviceable needing to gain a ton of weight and strength while learning proper technique.  

[Whatever]

(05-20-2023, 09:05 AM)Synric Wrote: He was a bad blocker as a WR blocking corners. He was also a finesse WR at his size. He needed to use his hands and body more because he couldnt create separation with his speed or quickness. He's a guy you'd think would be good at back shoulder jump balls but he wasn't because littler corners pushed him around. 

Johnny Wilson is not that guy he is a very physical player. He lives off that back shoulder throw such great body control.

I remember looking up Tate's contested catch % back when I had PFF and it was not impressive.  A handful of spectacular grabs fooled a lot of folks into thinking he was some jump ball machine.  Converting him to TE and getting him matched up on LB's that were just going push him around even more would never be the big boon people thought.  

WR's, particularly back half of the roster ones, get constantly misevaluated.  Because of the nature of the position, all he has to do is win 1-2 times a game to be perceived as "good" because most of the reps he loses will go unnoticed.  Drops get over emphasized because it's one of the few losses they can take that's obvious.  It does lead us to the yearly threads about the current Golden Binns winner, which are usually entertaining at least.  

[*ochocincos*]

(05-20-2023, 02:10 PM)Whatever Wrote: What did you ever see out of him that makes you think he could?  He would already be looking at a massive uphill battle just to be even serviceable needing to gain a ton of weight and strength while learning proper technique.  

Frankly I don't remember much about him other than the very rare spectacular catch, but to have sat there and say he "never" could have a chance at succeeding at TE seemed off-base unless we would have actually seen him them try to make him bigger and put at TE.

Tate's a lost cause now anyway, he's out of the league. I just didn't think he'd be in the league long as a WR given how pedestrian he was for that position, so I thought his only hope might have been converting to TE.

Johnny Wilson looks good as a receiver, and I think he could be in the Darren Waller mold. Part of me wanted to say Kyle Pitts, but until I see him test, I dunno if I'd be willing to go that far. Pitts was a pure athletic specimen for a TE.