The Mahomes Vs. Burrow Debate

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(06-22-2023, 07:59 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: But I have no doubt in my mind if Burrow was given the situation that Mahomes was given he would have achieved more.

Brady is the only QB who has won more than 2 SBs in the salary cap era and Mahomes has reached 2 in 5 years of starting. You are vastly underrating how historically good and successful Mahomes has been to think that someone can just be pasted in his place and do not just equal to what he's accomplished, but better.

[Nepa]

(06-22-2023, 07:33 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: There's a fine line between confidence and arrogance and the Bengals sure seem to love abusing that line in the media. I would rather not us be the team of heels who talk shit without ever winning anything. The Burrowhead stuff followed by losing was already bad enough without saying "Pat who?" about the reigning SB Champ and reigning MVP who knocked you out of the playoffs.

I'll call Burrow as the leading candidate for #2 in the NFL and hands down #2 if Rodgers is washed, but I don't care HOW favorable your situation is... if you've been a starter for 5 years and had the 1st, 5th, 6th, 4th, and 1st scoring offenses, you've hosted the AFC Championship game 5 times, been to the Super Bowl 3 times, been the league MVP 2 times, and won the Super Bowl 2 times? Yeah, you're the best.

Yeah, I don't like the the players showing disrespect, with Burrowhead and "Pat Who?" But at least the author noted that "Chase intended it tongue in cheek," and that Burrow had called Mahomes "the best quarterback in the league" and that Burrow added he doesn't "think there's any argument right now." Those kind of comments fly in the face of any fake outrage the Chiefs' fans may express.

[SladeX]

I’ve noticed the Chiefs and some of their fans look for any little thing to get outraged about. Like kelce trying to say no one favored the Chiefs to win or even be in the SB. What, 15 out of 20 picks you to win it all and you’re outraged about the 5? Getting comical…

[Nicomo Cosca]

I just want Burrow to get that 1st ring so we can truly call these 2 this generation’s Brady vs Peyton.

[Brownshoe]

(06-22-2023, 08:51 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Brady is the only QB who has won more than 2 SBs in the salary cap era and Mahomes has reached 2 in 5 years of starting. You are vastly underrating how historically good and successful Mahomes has been to think that someone can just be pasted in his place and do not just equal to what he's accomplished, but better.

Mahomes has had 6 years of being in the league. Big Ben won 2 in his first 5 years. And I do think if Burrow and Mahomes switched spots he would have won more, especially when there was a couple of years where the AFC wasn't even close the being as stacked as it is now. Burrow had a crap team with a new HC when he came in the league, Mahomes had a constant contender with Andy Reid as a HC. He was set up for success while Burrow was set up for failure, and yet he didn't. He broke "curses" and won with a team that looked pitiful the years prior.

[*bengalfan74*]

(06-23-2023, 09:15 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: Mahomes has had 6 years of being in the league. Big Ben won 2 in his first 5 years. And I do think if Burrow and Mahomes switched spots he would have won more, especially when there was a couple of years where the AFC wasn't even close the being as stacked as it is now. Burrow had a crap team with a new HC when he came in the league, Mahomes had a constant contender with Andy Reid as a HC. He was set up for success while Burrow was set up for failure, and yet he didn't. He broke "curses" and won with a team that looked pitiful the years prior.

Yep

Remember all the Burrow should opt-out if Cincinnati drafts him talk? And it wasn't just a couple shock jocks talking, it was basically everybody.

That hasn't aged well huh?

[Housh]

Burrow is better from minute 1 to minute 40 but Mahommes becomes another guy in clutch moments and that can’t be measured statistically.


Imo with no bias i don’t see how you can take Burrow over Mahommes right now. The main talking point id use in a Burrow defense is that Mahommes still has a tendency to throw up a BS pass if he’s pressured. Burrow essentially erased that from his game last year. So Burrow is more careful turnover wise but Mahommes is just better right now.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

I'll tell what Joe Burrow can never do that Patrick Mahomes has accomplished.

Joe Burrow can't get drafted by a team that went 12-4 with Alex Smith at QB and then still sit for a year when they went 10-6.

Do any of those Chiefs fans really think that Mahomes would have led the Bears to three Super Bowls if they took him instead of drafting Mitch Trubisky? Well, Joe Burrow went to a team worse than those shitty Bears and after having his knee shredded his first season, he beat little Patty Cake to take the previously 2-14 and then 4-11-1 Bengals to the Super Bowl.

The only time Mahomes beat Burrow was behind three Pro Bowl linemen and he still needed some help from the refs(not calling obvious holds and the block in the back on the punt return, not complaining about the call on Ossai). Also Mike Hilton playing his worst game as a Bengal didn't help either.

Do I think Patrick Mahomes is the greatest QB? Kind of. He's the greatest QB to ever run Andy Reid's offense and this comes from a guy that respects pretty much everything about Donovan McNabb. Mahomes amazing escape ability and improvising impresses people far more than his pocket passing. Now that he's played five of his six seasons as a pro, his pocket passing is finally above average, but it wasn't that way at all his first few years.

Joe Burrow's pre-seasons and end of seasons
2020 - None/Covid - knee injury after mid-season
2021 - Two handoffs and a dropped screen pass/Recovering from knee surgery - Lost in Super Bowl
2022 - None/Appendectomy - Lost in AFCCG
2023 - ?

[Whatever]

(06-23-2023, 09:40 AM)Housh Wrote: Burrow is better from minute 1 to minute 40 but Mahommes becomes another guy in clutch moments and that can’t be measured statistically.


Imo with no bias i don’t see how you can take Burrow over Mahommes right now. The main talking point id use in a Burrow defense is that Mahommes still has a tendency to throw up a BS pass if he’s pressured. Burrow essentially erased that from his game last year. So Burrow is more careful turnover wise but Mahommes is just better right now.

Eh, I remember Mahomes choking hard and throwing a pick into double coverage in OT in the AFCCG.  I also remember Mahomes doing basically nothing in the clutch in the AFCCG this past year and getting bailed out by a massive punt return, a no call on a block in the back on said punt return, and a late hit out of bounds.  Even 13 seconds was more Hill than Mahomes.

To me, the argument revolves around Aggressiveness % from NFL Next Gen Stats. It's a star that measures throws to receivers with defenders within one yard.   Last year, Mahomes was 2nd lowest st at 10.2%..  Joe was at 15.3%, meaning he's making a lot more tight window throws.  If you look at Completion % vs Expected, Mahomes was actually -.1 while Joe was +2.2%.  In '21, Mahomes had only an 8.7% Aggressiveness % and a -2.1% Completion % Versus Expected, compared to a staggering 19% and +6% for our boy.  Mahomes is great, but Andy Reid is also a genius and his offense affords Mahomes a lot of easy throws which Pat doesn't quite deliver break even production on.  Now, to his credit, he functions extremely well within the system and doesn't get his team in trouble by trying to do too much, but Burrow is a better tight window thrower with greater ability to drop a dime to a covered receiver.

[PDub80]

(06-22-2023, 04:32 PM)jj22 Wrote: Quiefs have gone all in on their attack on Chase.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2023/06/22/travis-kelce-to-jamarr-chase-dont-you-ever-disrespect-patrick-mahomes/

(06-22-2023, 05:09 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I though Travis was giving props to JC. Both are just standing up for their QBs.

WTS, Travis Kelce is quickly turning into a Class A Tool. 

He was being super cool about it.

I watched him say these things on his podcast in a youtube short and it was all in fun and not at all incendiary.

In private, though, yeah, these dudes are probably fired up and will hold onto this. As they should. The Bengals players  have crap to hold onto that the Chiefs say or do (if they wish).

Oddly, I think the Chiefs and Chiefs fans are much more worried about the Bengals than the other way around. I don't think it's at all close. I follow ZERO Chiefs social media (I pulled up the Kelce video to get the context of his voice - whcih matters), yet I see Chiefs fans all over Bengals articles. I don't think the Chiefs are in the Bengals heads (the Bengals know what really happened in the AFCCG). It's definitely the other way around.

[Soonerpeace]

Burrow also makes ~ $15M/year from endorsements.

They include:
• Nike
• Nerf
• Bose
• Kroger
• Lowe’s
• Fanatics
• Cashapp
• Buffalo Wild Wings

It's reported that Burrow ONLY spends his endorsement money, never his NFL cash. pic.twitter.com/DamCsHpyQU

— Andrew Petcash (@AndrewPetcash) January 29, 2023

[J24]

Burrows is better in the pocket and Mahomes is better at improvising outside the pocket. It's much close than people realize but Mahomes still has a major advantage!

[Soonerpeace]

(06-24-2023, 03:21 PM)J24 Wrote: Burrows is better in the pocket and Mahomes is better at improvising outside the pocket. It's much close than people realize but Mahomes still has a major advantage!

In deference to Prigozhin “ nyet” on the major advantage part. Burrow is 3-1 head up. He’s also more accurate. But Mahomes has the hardware.

[Housh]

(06-24-2023, 03:21 PM)J24 Wrote: Burrows is better in the pocket and Mahomes is better at improvising outside the pocket. It's much close than people realize but Mahomes still has a major advantage!

I’m taking Burrow in a clean pocket 10/10 days. Im taking Mahommes if my line sucks.


I think Mahommes would’ve won that Super Bowl against the Rams.


But on the Flip side i think 2022 Burrow would’ve beaten Tom Brady’s Bucks that Pat lost to so it’s a wash for me honestly.

[Brownshoe]

(06-25-2023, 01:24 AM)Housh Wrote: I’m taking Burrow in a clean pocket 10/10 days. Im taking Mahommes if my line sucks.


I think Mahommes would’ve won that Super Bowl against the Rams.


But on the Flip side i think 2022 Burrow would’ve beaten Tom Brady’s Bucks that Pat lost to so it’s a wash for me honestly.

Mahomes has never had a bad offensive line. Hell the last few years he's had one of the best OLs in the league. I would even take Burrow over Mahomes if the line sucks.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(06-25-2023, 01:24 AM)Housh Wrote: But on the Flip side i think 2022 Burrow would’ve beaten Tom Brady’s Bucks that Pat lost to so it’s a wash for me honestly.

That 2020 Chiefs OL was not good. They ended up replacing their entire starting 5 from that year in the offseason. It was why they traded for Orlando, signed Thuney, and had 3 rookies starting in 2021.

I find it interesting we're only talking OL and not the fact that we proudly (and rightfully) that we have the best WR trio in the NFL meanwhile Mahomes' best WR last year would be our 4th best WR. Juju, Valdes-Scantling, and Justin Watson aren't exactly an unstoppable force. He does have Kelce who is basically a WR, but still, we have Chase, Higgins, and Boyd who are a WHOLE lot better collectively and people on here are worried that not paying Higgins would derail the offense.

[*bfine32*]

(06-25-2023, 01:37 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: That 2020 Chiefs OL was not good. They ended up replacing their entire starting 5 from that year in the offseason. It was why they traded for Orlando, signed Thuney, and had 3 rookies starting in 2021.

I find it interesting we're only talking OL and not the fact that we proudly (and rightfully) that we have the best WR trio in the NFL meanwhile Mahomes' best WR last year would be our 4th best WR. Juju, Valdes-Scantling, and Justin Watson aren't exactly an unstoppable force. He does have Kelce who is basically a WR, but still, we have Chase, Higgins, and Boyd who are a WHOLE lot better collectively and people on here are worried that not paying Higgins would derail the offense.

IDK if I'd say the KC OL was not good. PFF had them ranked #11 in the NFL. Now it was the last good year for players such as Reiter, Fisher, and Schwartz/Remmers, but it was easily a top half of the league oline.

I think the KC oline was revamped more due to age and injury than it was due to poor performance in 2020. 

[TecmoBengals]

Burrow on the urgency meter: https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-urgency-meter-bills-headline-10-teams-facing-greatest-burden-of-expectation-

Quote:We all love us some Joe Burrow. That dude is the real deal. Talent, charisma, leadership, a sense of the moment, swag for days -- he's everything you want from a franchise quarterback. So, while it's easy to nod your head in appreciation when Burrow tells reporters the Bengals' Super Bowl window is "my whole career," it's also smart to temper that gusto with some reality. Dan Marino probably thought the same way Burrow does, and he never returned to the Super Bowl after his second season.

I'm more interested in Burrow winning just one Super Bowl than comparing him to Mahomes or other QBs. I just need him to be the best Bengals QB ever and the first to win a Super Bowl.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(06-22-2023, 12:15 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I am sure some of you are tired of this, and Ja'Marr;s recent "Pat Who?" only threw more gas on the fire.  However, I think there is one angle that is not discussed in the comparison.

Before I begin, I know that Mahomes has won two Super Bowls and Burrow has none to date.  I get that.  But how about comparing how they did in a similar situation?

In 2022, the Cheifs lost some key pieces on their offensive line to injury before the Super Bowl.  Their line was pretty good before then.  Here is Mahomes stat line from that game:

26/49 for 270 yards, 0 TDs, 2 INTs.  

He was facing an elite defense in Tampa Bay with a beat up offensive line.  

Here is how Burrow fared in his Super Bowl loss to the Rams:

22/33 for 263, 1 TD, 0 INTS

In fairness, Burrow was sacked an astonishing 7 times for 43 yards.  Mahomes was sacked 3 times for 27 yards.

There was a stat (couldn't find it exactly) about the difference between Mahomes and Burrow in last year's AFC title game in terms of time to throw before pressure.  Mahomes had something like 1.5 more seconds per drop back.

Why stir up this tired debate?  Because I think the Bengals have MORE weapons now, and have MORE depth now (including better starters) on the offensive line.  I can't wait to see how Burrow fares with a normal offseason, these new weapons, and a better, deeper line.

Mahomes gets (rightfully) praised for his two Super Bowl victories, but he doesn't seem to take any criticism for how he fared when he didn't have a great (or at least one of the best) offensive lines.

Yes, the Super Bowl victories will come for Burrow I am sure of it. Starting in February of 2024....

Mahomes is damn good, but I like Burrow better on and off the field and feel Burrow is a better leader and has even more of a killer 
instinct. Love Burrow's accuracy throwing out of the pocket and his timing, I feel he does this better than any QB. All of his other assets
are just toppers, smarts #1, his leadership, his pocket awareness, his underrated athleticism and his touch are all of immense quality.

Competitiveness is also second to none. He wants to be the best at everything he does. It is why he doesn't play Golf, he said it himself, 
he would have to dedicate all his time to be the best there and that takes time away from football. No sir. I bet after football Joe will be a
great golfer, wouldn't surprise me. Actually, would surprise me if he wasn't a top golfer after football.

[Soonerpeace]

The Bengals and Chiefs have played 4 games the last 2 years and for all practical purposes a wash. Forget who has what. Tge games have been dead even. Thr Chiefs have had a better OL and the Bengals mostly better receivers. The Chiefs had tgey been missing 3 OL starters we win the AFC Championship and likely SB. Everybody stop the KC adoration. Sure the last 5 years they’ve got us but the last 2 years even.