The Mahomes Vs. Burrow Debate

[Bengalbug]

(07-01-2023, 02:02 PM)Whatever Wrote: LeBron certainly has the physical tools for any era.  However, he is still mentally weak and that would handcuff him in any era except today's ultra soft NBA where he's made it accepted practice to try and put a super team around him to prop him up after chokes again and again.  Could he play?  Yeah.  Could he be an All Star?  Probably.  Would he be anywhere near the GoaT debate?  No.  His best bet would be getting drafted somewhere where he can be a #2 guy.

The only choke effort by LeBron is 2011 against mavs. See two posts up.

[Bengalbug]

(07-01-2023, 02:27 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: While we are still far apart in our assessment, at least you have become more reasonable with your take. We have gone from "He would get laughed out of the league" to "He would be an All-Star". We are at least moving back into the realm of reality. 

Would have been a HOFr regardless of era.

[SunsetBengal]

(07-01-2023, 03:10 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: The only finals that he lost, and should have won, was Miami against the Mavs.

The 07 Cavs team, outside of LeBron was a joke.  Going up against the #2 def, and potentially 3 HOF players.

In 14, LeBron led scoring in 4/5 games. He scored 51 points more than the second closest player from either team.  He also led his team in rebounds and assists. 28/8/4

In 15, LeBron lost Kyrie and Love.  He should have been finals MVP, in a losing effort, with arguably the best finals performance of all time. 36/13/9
He scored 60 more points than Steph (number 2), 15 more assists than Steph (number 2) and had more rebounds than Tristan Thomson (number 2).  It was legendary.

He then lost to what may be the best team ever assembled (for this era of basketball), the next two.

I used to love LeBron, I’m tired of him, and at some point will be able to look back and reflect on what he accomplished.  But Jordan never even sniffed a finals without pippen.  I still put Jordan one,  but it’s very close.

You know, the only way to settle this is by running a series of sims with Jordan and James playing games of 1 on 1..

[Bengalbug]

(07-01-2023, 03:30 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: You know, the only way to settle this is by running a series of sims with Jordan and James playing games of 1 on 1..

I’m down. But it’s a silly debate, and I am picking up your sarcasm. You just can’t compare different players from different eras, it’s blasphemous. Jordan wouldn’t be jordan in 2022, his outside shot wasn’t what would have needed to be required for todays game. Jordan kickstarted the new era of basketball. Then Steph curry came along. Someone else will be next.

[SunsetBengal]

(07-01-2023, 03:35 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: I’m down.  But it’s a silly debate, and I am picking up your sarcasm.  You just can’t compare different players from different eras, it’s blasphemous.  Jordan wouldn’t be jordan in 2022, his outside shot wasn’t what would have needed to be required for todays game.  Jordan kickstarted the new era of basketball.  Then Steph curry came along.  Someone else will be next.

Exactly, different eras are different.  Back in Jordan era, bball was much more physical.  So just as you say that Jordan wouldn't have had the outside range to compete in today's NBA, maybe James might have had a much shorter career in those days?

[Bengalbug]

(07-01-2023, 03:49 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Exactly, different eras are different.  Back in Jordan era, bball was much more physical.  So just as you say that Jordan wouldn't have had the outside range to compete in today's NBA, maybe James might have had a much shorter career in those days?

Yea, most likely.

[Bengalbug]

Let’s also not ignore the fact that Jordan had some off the court stuff, so much so that he needed to “retire” or he may have got the Pete rose treatment.

Anyway. I don’t think we can compare Mahomes or burrow to two of the top 5 nba players (maybe American sports) all time.

If we are holding some of LeBrons bad teams, and unfortunate injuries against him, then we need to also do the same for burrow, and Mahomes.

[*Synric*]

There is a generation gap here. I remember watching MJ in his prime back when they actually played defense. (The 98 finals was a heartbreaker for me cuz I was a Jazz fan and modeled my game after Stockton as a PG) I can't stand watching basketball now and haven't regularly (march madness mostly) in over a decade.

The 90s and the 2000 teens are are two different sports.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(07-01-2023, 03:13 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: I don’t get this take.  He started flopping so that he started getting calls.  The dude would get murdered in the paint but was able to power through it and would never get a call.  

How is he soft?

I said mentally. Dude is tough as nails. Lebron is not a smart person, simple as that.

All the other greats mentioned are smart. Lebron was more gifted with everything but the smarts than they were IMO.

[Housh]

(07-01-2023, 08:34 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I said mentally. Dude is tough as nails. Lebron is not a smart person, simple as that.

All the other greats mentioned are smart. Lebron was more gifted with everything but the smarts than they were IMO.

You cannot play basketball the way he does and not be smart. Dude very often calls out other teams plays PERSON BY PERSON.

Literally during the play he’s saying “point guard is doing this and that, shooting guard is doing this and that” and etc.

That’s the equivalent of a center knowing all the assignments on a run play even the ones that aren’t his.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(07-01-2023, 08:41 PM)Housh Wrote: You cannot play basketball the way he does and not be smart. Dude very often calls out other teams plays PERSON BY PERSON.

Literally during the play he’s saying “point guard is doing this and that, shooting guard is doing this and that” and etc.

That’s the equivalent of a center knowing all the assignments on a run play even the ones that aren’t his.

I can do that. But I am not the sharpest tool in the shed either.

He is not Michael Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson is all I am saying.

Lebron has a ton of gifts on the court, more than anyone is all I am saying.

These other guys weren't drafted right out of high school to be the greatest of all time like Lebron was.

[Bengalbug]

(07-01-2023, 08:46 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I can do that. But I am not the sharpest tool in the shed either.

He is not Michael Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson is all I am saying.

Lebron has a ton of gifts on the court, more than anyone is all I am saying.

These other guys weren't drafted right out of high school to be the greatest of all time like Lebron was.

Nate, LeBrons basketball IQ may be the highest all time. Are you saying he isn’t basketball smart or real life smart? On the court, few, if any, compare. Jordan was as athletically gifted as Lebron, but played in an era of lesser athletes.

Off the court, everyone you listed had more question marks around their life decision making.

[Housh]

(07-01-2023, 08:46 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I can do that. But I am not the sharpest tool in the shed either.

He is not Michael Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain, Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Oscar Robertson is all I am saying.

Lebron has a ton of gifts on the court, more than anyone is all I am saying.

These other guys weren't drafted right out of high school to be the greatest of all time like Lebron was.

People say he’s lying but Bron does this shit off of seeing plays ran ONCE or twice.

Have you heard the infamous story of LeBron recognizing a play ran against him in 2018 and still remembering it while he was a Laker?

That is high level confidence and play recognition.


Other teams players have said they heard LeBron calling out their plays while they were running the play. ThTs more than just having lucky memory. That’s IQ.

Idk how this LeBron isn’t smart narrative has happened. You cannot get the stats and success he’s gotten without being smart. He’s gotta be top 5 all time in passing IQ too. Only ppl CONSISTENTLY making passes like Bron are Russ, Joker, Paul, and Harden. Probably way more but that’s all i remember


https://youtu.be/eIo01nhXTLg

[Bengalbug]

(07-01-2023, 09:16 PM)Housh Wrote: People say he’s lying but Bron does this shit off of seeing plays ran ONCE or twice.

Have you heard the infamous story of LeBron recognizing a play ran against him in 2018 and still remembering it while he was a Laker?

That is high level confidence and play recognition.


Other teams players have said they heard LeBron calling out their plays while they were running the play. ThTs more than just having lucky memory. That’s IQ.

Idk how this LeBron isn’t smart narrative has happened. You cannot get the stats and success he’s gotten without being smart. He’s gotta be top 5 all time in passing IQ too. Only ppl CONSISTENTLY making passes like Bron are Russ, Joker, Paul, and Harden. Probably way more but that’s all i remember


https://youtu.be/eIo01nhXTLg

Bro, haters. I’m not a Lebron fan by any stretch at this point. To anyone saying he isn’t smart, just Google “Lebron basketball IQ”. One result below.

James’ IQ is so complex, it can not be limited to just numbers and math equations. As a playmaker, there is only one other player I would take in NBA history over LeBron James. His ability to be both a playmaking and scoring threat in the open court is underrated almost just as much as his ability to do it in set offenses. On defense, he has the wherewithal to cover all five positions on the court and make an impact on winning that way. He elevated his teammates’ game among the best floor raisers in NBA history as well as the best ceiling raisers in NBA history. James is many things, and the smartest player in the NBA is certainly one of them.

[KillerGoose]

(07-01-2023, 09:23 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Bro, haters. I’m not a Lebron fan by any stretch at this point. To anyone saying he isn’t smart, just Google “Lebron basketball IQ”. One result below.

James’ IQ is so complex, it can not be limited to just numbers and math equations. As a playmaker, there is only one other player I would take in NBA history over LeBron James. His ability to be both a playmaking and scoring threat in the open court is underrated almost just as much as his ability to do it in set offenses. On defense, he has the wherewithal to cover all five positions on the court and make an impact on winning that way. He elevated his teammates’ game among the best floor raisers in NBA history as well as the best ceiling raisers in NBA history. James is many things, and the smartest player in the NBA is certainly one of them.

I genuinely don’t get the Lebron hate. I’m a Thunder fan, so it’s not like I just love Lebron. In a time where it’s common for athletes/celebrities to be caught up in scandals where they cheat, or they brandish weapons, or whatever else, Lebron has set the standard. He was hyped up to the best ever while he was still in high school, was drafted #1 overall and has achieved what many thought he was capable of. Off the court, he married his high-school sweetheart, has never been caught up in a scandal and seems to have a good relationship with his children.

I can fully understand not thinking he’s the best ever. However, to insinuate that he is stupid, mentally weak, or whatever else is just so strange to me. He’s one of the greatest players of all time and has been a role model while doing so. Under immense pressure at that, I might add.

[Soonerpeace]

(07-01-2023, 10:19 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: I genuinely don’t get the Lebron hate. I’m a Thunder fan, so it’s not like I just love Lebron. In a time where it’s common for athletes/celebrities to be caught up in scandals where they cheat, or they brandish weapons, or whatever else, Lebron has set the standard. He was hyped up to the best ever while he was still in high school, was drafted #1 overall and has achieved what many thought he was capable of. Off the court, he married his high-school sweetheart, has never been caught up in a scandal and seems to have a good relationship with his children.

I can fully understand not thinking he’s the best ever. However, to insinuate that he is stupid, mentally weak, or whatever else is just so strange to me. He’s one of the greatest players of all time and has been a role model while doing so. Under immense pressure at that, I might add.

Buckle up because adding Micic and Holmgren and Cason Wallace to the group is going enhance then. Depending on what they do with Olidapo and Bertrans their bench could be all world. Their Summer League team won’t lose unless they don’t play some guys much.

[Housh]

(07-01-2023, 10:47 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Buckle up because adding Micic and Holmgren and Cason Wallace to the group is going enhance then. Depending on what they do with Olidapo and Bertrans their bench could be all world. Their Summer League team won’t lose unless they don’t play some guys much.

Chet VS Wemby for the 1st time is gonna be must see TV. I think we are gonna see a center game unlike one we’ve ever seen before. Both defend, are mobile and have decent NBA jumpers. Chet may be the last guy i was hyped to just see play. Dude is a monster.

I truly think both will be all stars in year 1.

[Housh]

https://youtu.be/-CJoHqGAXRQ


This is a video showing some of Burrows best sack escapes and it’s just a quick fun watch.

With the added muscle on Burrow these will happen even more frequently imo.
One thing i notice too is Burrow takes shorter, more powerful steps when escaping pressure. There’s one in the video where he does a little hop out of pressure and goes right into a throwing motion and to me that play needs to be on every QBs tape he studies because it’s just beautiful. This video also highlights how Burrow is very deliberate about WHERE he escapes pressure. He understands every route being ran and appears as if he pre plans where he’ll scramble if he needs to. This is him helping his WRs be great. Alot of guys scramble out of desperation and they may end up scrambling away from where their WRs are so their WRs have to run the opposite side of the field to become an option for their QB. Burrow seems to have an insane ability to escape pressure exactly where he wants to.

This is really just a fun video highlighting who Burrow is as a QB

[Housh]

(07-02-2023, 12:39 AM)Housh Wrote: https://youtu.be/-CJoHqGAXRQ


This is a video showing some of Burrows best sack escapes and it’s just a quick fun watch.

With the added muscle on Burrow these will happen even more frequently imo.
One thing i notice too is Burrow takes shorter, more powerful steps when escaping pressure. There’s one in the video where he does a little hop out of pressure and goes right into a throwing motion and to me that play needs to be on every QBs tape he studies because it’s just beautiful. This video also highlights how Burrow is very deliberate about WHERE he escapes pressure. He understands every route being ran and appears as if he pre plans where he’ll scramble if he needs to. This is him helping his WRs be great. Alot of guys scramble out of desperation and they may end up scrambling away from where their WRs are so their WRs have to run the opposite side of the field to become an option for their QB. Burrow seems to have an insane ability to escape pressure exactly where he wants to.

This is really just a fun video highlighting who Burrow is as a QB

Watched a bunch of Burrow highlights cause I’m bored and it’s crazy to see how many times we had routes on the field that would’ve dissected the defense and we just couldn’t throw them because the line. On the play where Burrow gets hit almost at snap, does a spin and finds Tee for a 1st, Boyd was actually WIDE OPEN directly in the hole of the zone Baltimore was playing and Burrow had to ignore him because he had to scramble to his left. Boyd ran his route on the right side and utterly destroyed his man because the corner was so worried about Chase he gave no help on the corner route. If this happens a lot, our offense is gonna change SOOOOO much with a good o line. Upon watching these highlights through the lens of wanting to see if someone was open i realized our passing designs are INSANE. Like they are really
Good. It’s a shame we couldn’t utilize our whole playbook. There were some plays where literally 3-4 guys got wide open but the pressure caused Burrow to hold it which then let the D catch up. One play against Baltimore there were literally 3 guys wide open for an EASY 1st and the literal only reason we didn’t get it off is cause the line. I knew our line was bad but some of these plays really drove it home for me. He’s not even getting time to let routes play out in alot of his highlights. Thank God Chase and Tee are so gifted physically.

[samhain]

(07-01-2023, 08:34 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I said mentally. Dude is tough as nails. Lebron is not a smart person, simple as that.

All the other greats mentioned are smart. Lebron was more gifted with everything but the smarts than they were IMO.

I'm ride or die with team Jordan, but LeBron is far from dumb.  Considering the expectations he's had on his shoulder since grade school, I think he did just fine. He's an excellent father, he's active in the community, and he's undoubtedly one of the best ever to step onto a court.  Lots of young players with that kind of pressure don't manage it nearly as well.  It literally breaks many of them.