Establish the Run

[NATI BENGALS]

Rainy terrible conditions for an aerial attack last week. Plus a QB playing at less than 100%. And Burrow had 31 pass attempts.
Perfect conditions to run the ball last week. Healthy full strength OL and RB. And our RBs had 17 carries.

Come on man.?

I'm sure he is progressing health wise but we should still help Burrow out. Establish the run. Let our OL set the tone. Keep Lamar off the field and control the time of possession.

Not just this week though. We need to do it all season.

[Doin the Shuffle]

Let me tell you how it is:

When the rock is slippery,
They shouldn't try to throw the rock.

Rather give the rock to the strong fast guy to hold tight and muscle his way forward.

When the rock is dry though,
Then they should throw it to each other.

Whoever throws the rock best,
Should be the one who throws most.

Some guys shouldn't run or throw the rock.
Those guys should fight each other.

And whichever team is best, wins the game.

[*Go Cards*]

Containing Lamar in the pocket and making him beat the Bengals with his arm is the key to this game imho.

Luckily Hubbard is great at this, but it is Flowers that has me worried. If Bengals allow them to hit Flowers over and over again fo 8 yard gains like they did last week it will set Lamar up to get loose running the ball.

Yet I do think our CB's are good enough to slow Flowers enough to keep up the containment on Lamar.

As far as running the ball ? I always would like to establish the run just to open the passing game up even more for Burrow and Co.

Well balance offenses are best in my book.

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-16-2023, 03:52 AM)Doin the Shuffle Wrote: Let me tell you how it is:

When the rock is slippery,
They shouldn't try to throw the rock.

Rather give the rock to the strong fast guy to hold tight and muscle his way forward.

When the rock is dry though,
Then they should throw it to each other.

Whoever throws the rock best,
Should be the one who throws most.

Some guys shouldn't run or throw the rock.
Those guys should fight each other.

And whichever team is best, wins the game.

4 stars (out of 5). Would read again.

[Essex Johnson]

(09-16-2023, 02:12 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Rainy terrible conditions for an aerial attack last week. Plus a QB playing at less than 100%. And Burrow had 31 pass attempts.
Perfect conditions to run the ball last week. Healthy full strength OL and RB. And our RBs had 17 carries.

 Come on man.?

I'm sure he is progressing health wise but we should still help Burrow out. Establish the run. Let our OL set the tone. Keep Lamar off the field and control the time of possession.

Not just this week though. We need to do it all season.

It is not like we abandoned the run in the 1st half, we just were not effective or because of sacks , pressures, penalties we were forced into throwing the ball.  Outside of one series we ran the ball 1 to 2 times in every other series but over 1/2 our runs (6) went for 3 yards or less. It is hard to get carries and 1st downs when 50% of your runs especially on 1st and 2nd downs are going for less than 3 yards a carry.   Maybe we could have run a bit more but again it is less about carries and more about the effectiveness of those carries. We really had 3 carries out of 10 or 11 in first half that were effective so that is around a 30% effective rate, that is going to hinder your offense and running.
Also in 1st quarter, early 2nd quarter the rain was not that bad... Plus Burrow is not shown signs in his career when he was shown ineffective on a avg. basis in bad weather, look what he did to Buffalo, very had to just limit Burrow to 1 throw a series more often than not early in a game.
So lets run the ball but be effective in our runs and lets play a cleaner game to not be behind the chains and have bad 3rd down efficiency.. that is a winning formula for tomorrow

[Essex Johnson]

(09-16-2023, 08:24 AM)Go Cards Wrote: Containing Lamar in the pocket and making him beat the Bengals with his arm is the key to this game imho.

Luckily Hubbard is great at this, but it is Flowers that has me worried. If Bengals allow them to hit Flowers over and over again  fo 8 yard gains like they did last week it will set Lamar up to get loose running the ball.

Yet I do think our CB's are good enough to slow Flowers enough to keep up the containment on Lamar.

As far as running the ball ? I always would like to establish the run just to open the passing game up even more for Burrow and Co.

Well balance offenses are best in my book.

To establish the run, you have to be effective at running which last week we were not for a majority of our runs in 1st half.. so that also forced use to throw more in 2nd half, ive preached balance also under ZT and Burrow reign but it is also hard to take it out of Burrows hands too much with how he has performed in his NFL career.. the key to balance is less penalties, less sacks/pressures and 4 yards a carry on a majority of a  teams runs.. we were 0-3 in those areas last week...

[NUGDUKWE]

(09-16-2023, 10:51 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: To establish the run, you have to be effective at running which last week we were not for a majority of our runs in 1st half.. so that also forced use to throw more in 2nd half, ive preached balance also under ZT and Burrow reign but it is also hard to take it out of Burrows hands too much with how he has performed in his NFL career.. the key to balance is less penalties, less sacks/pressures and 4 yards a carry on a majority of a  teams runs.. we were 0-3 in those areas last week...

I actually don't think we were that bad at running the ball specifically in the 1st half. I actually think we would've had a decent chance at winning the game if we would've had more of a emphasis to make that a run heavy game. Then add in the weather i think it was what we really needed. Burrow was a lot closer to a record than I would've like with 31 attempts for 80 whatever yards. Not saying a run heavy approach is what we should do this week or even most weeks but when it's called for we need to be able stick with it. Even if it's ugly at times.

[KillerGoose]

The running game doesn't need to be established. It either works or it doesn't. The idea behind "establishing the run" is typically something like "run to soften up the defense" but that's not how it works. Each down is a resource, and if you use those resources trying to "establish" your run game when you're getting meager returns, then you're just wasting your downs and making the game harder on yourself. If the run game is working, then continue using it. Last week would have been a good opportunity to continue running the ball, especially given the weather conditions.

However, if Cincinnati comes out and really struggles to run the ball, continuing to run for the sake of "establishing" it is going to only make the game harder than it should be. We saw plenty of examples of this early on last season. The running game sucked, but they kept sticking to it and it resulted in early season struggles.

[Essex Johnson]

(09-16-2023, 11:12 AM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: I actually don't think we were that bad at running the ball specifically in the 1st half. I actually think we would've had a decent chance at winning the game if we would've had more of a emphasis to make that a run heavy game. Then add in the weather i think it was what we really needed. Burrow was a lot closer to a record than I would've like with 31 attempts for 80 whatever yards. Not saying a run heavy approach is what we should do this week or even most weeks but when it's called for we need to be able stick with it. Even if it's ugly at times.

We had one series that put together 2 1st down good runs, he had ove half our runs in 1st half go for 3 yards or less, that was not a way to sustain drives in 1st half so hence not many carries and 1st downs. On the flip side probably half Browns run were over 5 yards a carry which helped continue drives.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

Mixon had 2 good runs on the same series and every other series he rushed 11 times for 22 yards.

Establish the run is a fun thing to say during the week, and then game time rolls around and they run it twice for 5 yards every series, go 3-and-out, and keep punting.

It's like saying "Start every drive at 2nd and 8."

[Housh]

It’s not gonna matter. Teams are ok with us having a successful run game because they know well always go away from it and teams are so afraid of Burrow that they probably don’t care if we get even 150 yards on the ground.

Teams are banking on rushing Burrow and getting pressures. No one is going to let us pass on them just because we’re going hard on the ground. I had this theory last year and Iv seen a couple analysts discuss this as well.


If I’m Baltimore i think i can win even if Mixon has 150 yards. The easiest way to lose as the Raven is to get down early to Burrows passing. So i don’t think teams are gonna care about our run game unless it gets REALLY REALLY good.

This is a bigger issue than we are discussing here and it’s kinda similar to the Chiefs. Teams just don’t care if Pachecho goes off because it means Mahommes isn’t killing them.

[NUGDUKWE]

(09-16-2023, 06:03 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: We had one series that put together 2  1st down good runs, he had ove half our runs in 1st half go for 3 yards or less, that was not a way to sustain drives in 1st half so hence not many carries and 1st downs. On the flip side probably half Browns run were over  5 yards a carry which helped continue drives.

Not saying we didn't have bad runs but so did the Browns. Not saying our run game is as good as the Browns. We had more success with the run than just one drive. But on that one drive we had 4 runs for 41 yds. Then had a 3rd and 3 on the Browns 38 with a long incomplete pass to Higgins causing 4th down. So I don't think it was we weren't good enough to lean on the run although the coaches mightve thought so. But they also thought having Burrow throw it 31 times with a lower average than our run game was a good idea. So I think it's safe to say looking back at that game leaning on the run was the direction we should've gone.

[Bengalstripes9]

I agree they should have run the ball more last week with the conditions and the Browns strength being pass D.
Overall the gameplan was not good and they should have designed a more specific attack based on the way the Browns play defense.

But this week... Ravens are much more susceptible through the air and their run D is very good.

[sandwedge]

(09-16-2023, 12:10 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: The running game doesn't need to be established. It either works or it doesn't. The idea behind "establishing the run" is typically something like "run to soften up the defense" but that's not how it works. Each down is a resource, and if you use those resources trying to "establish" your run game when you're getting meager returns, then you're just wasting your downs and making the game harder on yourself. If the run game is working, then continue using it. Last week would have been a good opportunity to continue running the ball, especially given the weather conditions.

However, if Cincinnati comes out and really struggles to run the ball, continuing to run for the sake of "establishing" it is going to only make the game harder than it should be. We saw plenty of examples of this early on last season. The running game sucked, but they kept sticking to it and it resulted in early season struggles.

Well said!

[Essex Johnson]

(09-16-2023, 07:20 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: Not saying we didn't have bad runs but so did the Browns. Not saying our run game is as good as the Browns. We had more success with the run than just one drive. But on that one drive we had 4 runs for 41 yds. Then had a 3rd and 3 on the Browns 38 with a long incomplete pass to Higgins causing 4th down. So I don't think it was we weren't good enough to lean on the run although the coaches mightve thought so. But they also thought having Burrow throw it 31 times with a lower average than our run game was a good idea. So I think it's safe to say looking back at that game leaning on the run was the direction we should've gone.

Sorry again have to disagree , you can't have over 1/2 runs   go for 3 and less and be effective . The Browns had many more 5 yards and over than we did in comparison, plus Watson dropped back just as much as Burrow. we ran the ball  1 to 2 times about every series . , so we were not pass happy ,  i think it is save to say our offense  was in effective and did not matter if we ran more , the result was going  to be the same.

[Essex Johnson]

(09-16-2023, 06:12 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Mixon had 2 good runs on the same series and every other series he rushed 11 times for 22 yards.

Establish the run is a fun thing to say during the week, and then game time rolls around and they run it twice for 5 yards every series, go 3-and-out, and keep punting.

It's like saying "Start every drive at 2nd and 8."

Agree, tape does not lie...we had too few runs that were effective 

[NUGDUKWE]

(09-16-2023, 06:12 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Mixon had 2 good runs on the same series and every other series he rushed 11 times for 22 yards.

Establish the run is a fun thing to say during the week, and then game time rolls around and they run it twice for 5 yards every series, go 3-and-out, and keep punting.

It's like saying "Start every drive at 2nd and 8."

Yeah almost all weeks I wouldn't be screaming to run the ball. But going to Cleveland in a bad weather game against a Browns defense that at least on paper is meant to stop the pass not to mention Burrow missing so much time. That game should of been a run game. Taylor likes to throw the ball and I get it we have Burrow but that was just not a good game for it.