Breakdown: Why the Offense is Struggling

[jj22]

(10-04-2023, 12:23 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Just warnin' ya, you're not going to like it. Dude is claiming Burrow's issues stem from his calf injury not form the beatings he's taken the last 2 and a half seasons.

I get it. No reason to beat a dead horse. No one was concerned about Burrow taken beatings continuously for 4 years and how eventually it would catch up to him. 

What I take from what you guys are saying is he had a solid pocket and no reason why he couldn't get to his 2nd and 3rd read. Which brings me to the only other point I've made. His accuracy may be off, but that has nothing to do with his bad reads.

[Tomkat]

(10-04-2023, 12:17 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: The bigger issue with Burrow to me is his inability to get outside the pocket and extend plays and avoid pressure.

I just finished watching Kyle Kasys gamae film review and there were so many plays where Joe could have bounced outside the pocket to bye time and and extend plays and he just didn't even attempt it....leading to a sack.

Here's that video if youre interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3655&v=LDDQEE4Pot4&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2F&source_ve_path=MzY4NDIsMzY4NDIsMzY4NDIsMjg2NjY&feature=emb_logo

Man, that is painful to watch... nauseating even.

[Housh]

(10-04-2023, 12:17 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: The bigger issue with Burrow to me is his inability to get outside the pocket and extend plays and avoid pressure.

I just finished watching Kyle Kasys gamae film review and there were so many plays where Joe could have bounced outside the pocket to bye time and and extend plays and he just didn't even attempt it....leading to a sack.

Here's that video if youre interested:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3655&v=LDDQEE4Pot4&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2F&source_ve_path=MzY4NDIsMzY4NDIsMzY4NDIsMjg2NjY&feature=emb_logo

This has been a huge issue and why i cannot grade the o line yet

It’s impossible to block for a statue

[SunsetBengal]

(10-04-2023, 12:12 PM)Tomkat Wrote: Does this look like a QB who is pushing/driving off his back foot?

We don't know, he hasn't even started bringing his arm forward yet.

[Tomkat]

(10-04-2023, 12:55 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: We don't know, he hasn't even started bringing his arm forward yet.

OK, fair enough...
I went back and tried to screenshot him at equal points in his delivery (can see the ball released... almost directly above his head)
I realize the camera angles aren't exactly the same, but I can only work with what's given.


#1


In this first example, you can see how much further FORWARD he has driven himself.  His front leg is "posted" (straightened) and his heel is firmly on the ground.  Contrast that with THIS...

#2


Here, his front leg is BENT, he's not driven forward, and he's ON HIS TOES as a result.

It doesn't get any more obvious than this.

[*PhilHos*]

(10-04-2023, 12:39 PM)jj22 Wrote: I get it. No reason to beat a dead horse. No one was concerned about Burrow taken beatings continuously for 4 years and how eventually it would catch up to him. 

IT'S NOT THE BEATINGS!!! IT'S THE CALF!!! 

Yes, there's a reason to beat the dead horse: it's you not understanding the Joe's issues stem from his calf. 

[jj22]

(10-04-2023, 01:49 PM)PhilHos Wrote: IT'S NOT THE BEATINGS!!! IT'S THE CALF!!! 

Yes, there's a reason to beat the dead horse: it's you not understanding the Joe's issues stem from his calf. 

The issue is y’all using the calf as a crutch for all the woes we see with the team. It’s lazy. If anything the calf is proof Burrows body is breaking down and that is likely from the 4 years of beatings it’s taken. It should be alarming his body at 26 can’t heal in 6 weeks leading up to the season. And the reason is equally likely as it being the number of beatings he’s took. Ask luck. Anyone remember what his injury was when he retired the one his body just struggled to recover from? It wasn’t anything that should have ended his career. I just have a big picture view.

[Frank Booth]

(10-04-2023, 01:54 PM)jj22 Wrote: The issue is y’all using the calf as a crutch for all the woes we see with the team. It’s lazy. If anything the calf is proof Burrows body is breaking down and that is likely from the 4 years of beatings it’s taken. It should be alarming his body at 26 can’t heal in 6 weeks leading up to the season. And the reason is equally likely as it being the number of beatings he’s took. Ask luck. Anyone remember what his injury was when he retired the one his body just struggled to recover from? It wasn’t anything that should have ended his career. I just have a big picture view.

so his first 2 years he got beat up so bad that it has negatively affected his 4th year? That's what you're saying?

[jj22]

(10-04-2023, 02:00 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: so his first 2 years he got beat up so bad that it has negatively affected his 4th year? That's what you're saying?

Burrow is in his 4th year. One person said 2.5 years and now he’s only been taken a beating for 2 years. What next. It’s only been a year of beatings? What I’m saying is Lucks body broke down after awhile and it struggled to recover from injuries that shouldn’t have taken as long to recover from.

I believe he shouldn’t be this bad off still given the injury took place in July. He is and it’s equally likely that his body is beat down and slow to recover as anything else.

It’s a legit and factual opinion as it relates to the toll injuries take on a body. But folks is defensive and I get it.

[*PhilHos*]

(10-04-2023, 01:54 PM)jj22 Wrote: The issue is y’all using the calf as a crutch for all the woes we see with the team. It’s lazy. 

It's not lazy. It's the truth. Everything stems from Joe's calf. Zac and co have tried adjusting their scheme (limiting the playbook, doing everything from shotgun etc.) and it hasn't worked. But it's because of Joe's limitations stemming from his calf that they've done so.

(10-04-2023, 01:54 PM)jj22 Wrote: If anything the calf is proof Burrows body is breaking down and that is likely from the 4 years of beatings it’s taken. It should be alarming his body at 26 can’t heal in 6 weeks leading up to the season. And the reason is equally likely as it being the number of beatings he’s took. 

Oh dear Lord, you clearly do not have an even elementary-level grasp of basic human anatomy if you believe this.

(10-04-2023, 01:54 PM)jj22 Wrote: Ask luck. Anyone remember what his injury was when he retired the one his body just struggled to recover from? It wasn’t anything that should have ended his career. I just have a big picture view.

Luck didn't retire from an injury. He retired because he was tired of dealing with ALL the injuries he had dealt with at that point which were torn cartilage in 2 ribs, partially torn abdomen, a lacerated kidney, at least 1 concussion, a torn labrum in his throwing shoulder and an ankle injury. Granted, those aren't nearly as horrible as an ACL, appendicitis, and a calf injury (he said sarcastically). 

[WeezyBengal]

(10-04-2023, 02:08 PM)jj22 Wrote: Burrow is in his 4th year. One person said 2.5 years and now he’s only been taken a beating for 2 years. What next. It’s only been a year of beatings? What I’m saying is Lucks body broke down after awhile and it struggled to recover from injuries that shouldn’t have taken as long to recover from.

I believe he shouldn’t be this bad off still given the injury took place in July. He is and it’s equally likely that his body is beat down and slow to recover as anything else.

It’s a legit and factual opinion as it relates to the toll injuries take on a body. But folks is defensive and I get it.

Meh, Im not buying this. Guy looked fine at the end of last year and in training camp before he injured the calf. 

[*PhilHos*]

(10-04-2023, 02:08 PM)jj22 Wrote: Burrow is in his 4th year. One person said 2.5 years and now he’s only been taken a beating for 2 years. What next. It’s only been a year of beatings? What I’m saying is Lucks body broke down after awhile and it struggled to recover from injuries that shouldn’t have taken as long to recover from.

No it didn't. Luck had a variety of injuries but he quit because he was tired of dealing with cycle of injury, pain, rehab, injury, pain, rehab, etc. His body wasn't broken down at the time of retirement. 

(10-04-2023, 02:08 PM)jj22 Wrote: I believe he shouldn’t be this bad off still given the injury took place in July. He is and it’s equally likely that his body is beat down and slow to recover as anything else.

It’s a legit and factual opinion as it relates to the toll injuries take on a body. But folks is defensive and I get it.

Something is either factual or opinion, not both. 

Yes, it's true injuries take a toll on a body, but I highly doubt an ACL tear, an appendicitis and a calf injury have "ruined" Joe as a QB - especially when 2 of those 3 did not even occur on a football field. Then consider that he has since played at a high level after 2 of those "injuries" and it makes your point even more ridiculous.

[Destro]

SBNation went in on the Bengals. Yikes!
https://www.sbnation.com/nfl/2023/10/3/23900972/joe-burrow-bengals-calf-injury-jamarr-chase-nfl

[jj22]

(10-04-2023, 02:25 PM)PhilHos Wrote:  Granted, those aren't nearly as horrible as an ACL, appendicitis, and a calf injury (he said sarcastically). 

And he never played as horrible as Burrow, so that is that. 

[jj22]

(10-04-2023, 02:26 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Meh, Im not buying this. Guy looked fine at the end of last year and in training camp before he injured the calf. 

Rodgers was nearly 40 when he struggled to recover from the calf. Burrow should be young enough to bounce back still given he had 6 weeks before he even practiced.

I'm no doctor granted, but Burrow has been injured yearly since 2016 or so and that does add up over time. Burrow due to injuries could have the body of a 35 year old. Clearly he's recovering like a 35 year old would. That's my theory, and why I say the beatings have added up. I know there are different levels of calf injuries, but this training staff did get a 330 pounder and a 270 pounder back right in less than 4 weeks, and they had more to worry about then sliding to the left or right. They were bracing for other 330 pounders to pounce on them with all their weight and had to hold their ground, move them etc. 

[jj22]

(10-04-2023, 02:33 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Yes, it's true injuries take a toll on a body, but I highly doubt an ACL tear, an appendicitis and a calf injury have "ruined" Joe as a QB - especially when 2 of those 3 did not even occur on a football field. Then consider that he has since played at a high level after 2 of those "injuries" and it makes your point even more ridiculous.

Burrow has battled injuries yearly for a long time now. it isn't just those, and there are probably more nagging ones we don't know about. I know he is Superman, but we've seen the beatings he's taken. 

[*Go Cards*]

For the life of me, just can't imagine Burrow having a calf injury and going into the first game against Cleveland on a wet slick field and the decision was to play him. Would not doubt if the injury was made worse on that damp dreary day.

Just insanity imo and reeks of MB.

[*Synric*]

A little bit of revisionist history there. They started running Duo in the second half of 2020 to complement the wide zone. The Rams loved that idea and also adapted it in 2021. In 2021 the Bengals started running heavy shotgun duo and inside zones in the second half of the season. They still did some wide zone in short yardage but they were predominantly a shotgun run team. In 2022 they tried the wide zone again after coming off a superbowl with their shotgun run team it didn't work so they simplified it back down to shotgun duo and inside zones.

Honestly the offense the coaches install every year hasn't really worked and had to be simplified and adjusted mid-season to get results. Thr offensive staff has a very hard time marrying a consistent running offense with their passing offense.

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-05-2023, 08:40 AM)Synric Wrote: A little bit of revisionist history there. They started running Duo in the second half of 2020 to complement the wide zone. The Rams loved that idea and also adapted it in 2021. In 2021 the Bengals started running heavy shotgun duo and inside zones in the second half of the season. They still did some wide zone in short yardage but they were predominantly a shotgun run team. In 2022 they tried the wide zone again after coming off a superbowl with their shotgun run team it didn't work so they simplified it back down to shotgun duo and inside zones.

Honestly the offense the coaches install every year hasn't really worked and had to be simplified and adjusted mid-season to get results. Thr offensive staff has a very hard time marrying a consistent running offense with their passing offense.

Very much so

I remember early last season it looked like we had two totally different offenses on the field, no chemistry at all with run game to passing. This season it seems the coaches don't even try to install any running into any game plans. 

[*ochocincos*]

(10-04-2023, 02:26 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Meh, Im not buying this. Guy looked fine at the end of last year and in training camp before he injured the calf. 

And his most recent injury came on the first day of camp with no contact...there is no logical reason to associate getting "beat up over the years" to what's going on right now.

If he was doing this after recovering from a bad hit, I would say that's more logical. But that's not what we are (or at least I am) seeing in this instance.