How Do We Improve The Line? Will We Do It?

[Essex Johnson]

(11-22-2023, 03:31 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Last offseason, we tried to improve the line but it just didn't happen. I went into this season thinking the line would be a strength and I had such high hopes that I put down a lot of money on bets for the team and also for individual awards for Burrow and Chase.

Burrow has never had a decent line here and has still taken us to a play from winning the ship and an AFCC game, so will we go all-out to bring in a decent line to make sure he doesn't have a short career and to win the big one?

What do we need to do to fix the line this offseason? Bring in free agents? Draft lineman? Replace Pollack? Replace Zac?

Jonah is likely leaving in free agency, so I've seen us taking a tackle in the first round, but what else needs to be done? Free agents?

Or is it as simple as replacing Pollack?

Or will it be another wasted year?

Actually the line has improved it was on pace to have the lowest sacks and pressures in Burrow's career plus less negative plays rushing and one of the least penalized lines. So we need to continue that improvement in making some changes but not blowing it up and spending too much capital since we have other areas to improve 

1. Replace Pollack for fresh change plus see if we can better develop our draft picks
2.  Resign Williams, or replace with a  solid FA
3. Draft better especially at guard in with two picks 2nd to 5th rounds.
4. Bring in a proven FA at RB or draft 1 in top 3rd rounds to replace or compete with Mixon

[samhain]

(11-22-2023, 06:44 PM)Joelist Wrote: Seeing as we've had line issues under two head coaches, three line coaches and multiple OCs the issue is different.

I think it is our constant refusal to play to the strengths of our players and game plan to exploit the weaknesses of opponents. This collection of linemen is not bad. They are all a consistent type (power) also. But we insist on doing both run and pass in ways not leaning into power. The offense as a whole has an identity crisis. The strengths of the personnel look towards an offense operating under center more with power runs and play action passes - even to the point of using a FB. However, the plays and game plans are often oriented towards more spread looks out of shotgun, running wide zone, naked backfields and the like. It sets the players up to fail, especially as we have for YEARS had problems with "tells" on offense giving the play away. Locked on Bengals even called this out this week and noted that this season like the others they again have been trying to run wide zone concepts - Bengal sans even asked "Why?" in an exasperated tone

I think the Bengals as an organization have a difficult time coming around to the idea that interior linemen are no longer second tier in terms of position value.  Tackles may make more, but the disparity is far less than it used to be.  They improved with Karras and Cappa, but they gave the big money to Brown.  They evaluate guard and center pretty poorly.  The last "great" guard they drafted was Zeitler.  Price was an early round guy and he was a righteous bust.  

If you aren't succeeding in drafting good interior OL, then you're either going to pay big money in fa or maintain a steady stream of poor to mediocre lines.  They have never wanted to pay for high end guards or centers in fa.  Not even their own.  It was foretold very early on that both Zeitler and Steinbach would get paid someplace other than Cincinnati.  

The Bengals have recently taken a positive step with Cappa and Karras, but it's still been a half measure.  They were better than what we had, but they are far from great.  This year they've been pretty bad.  

The Volson situation is confounding.  I could never wrap my head around a 5th round rookie starting from day 1 to protect the most important human in the organization.  Maybe ever.  Some teams have the talent evaluation skill to identify and utilize unknown prospects at the NFL level, but when it comes to the line, the Bengals are not one of them.

The Bengals have steered toward mediocrity in the interior since forever.  Even when they get a really good player, he's rarely kept long term.  Then they can't replace him.  See Zeitler and the long list of retreads and clowns that followed him before Cappa arrived.  The John Millers, the Alex Redmond nightmare. The XSF guy that never stayed healthy and wasn't good anyway. Anyone remember the name Christian Westerman?  Then the Adeniji bust.  Cappa was steering back to mediocrity from abject failure.

Tackle is whatever.  Jonah was a starting caliber LT.  Reiff played acceptably before he went out.  Collins had his faults, but he also brought an big advantage in the run game.  Not bad players by any stretch.  They team has shown an ability to find a rotating cast of "good enough" at tackle.  They even signed the top available one this past year.  They haven't done that int he interior.  

Burrow's arrival held them to a higher standard in line building, thus Cappa and Karras, but it's still not enough.  It's not about money.  It's about evaluating talent and placing a real value on it at the positions of g and c.  

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(11-24-2023, 09:44 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Actually the line has improved it was on pace to have the lowest sacks and pressures in Burrow's career

Largely by virtue of having the lowest intended air yards and completed air yards of his career too and even that's marginal at best if you look at rate. Last year he was sacked on 6.3% of his pass attempts. This year he was sacked on 6.2% of his pass attempts which is still 17th in the NFL.

Anyone can lower sacks at least a bit by having a hyper quick dink-and-dunk offense. Just means you've neutered your offense to do so.

Burrow was getting 1.2 less air yards per completion this year than last, and 2.0 yards less than 2021. He was 26th in AVG.

[3wt]

(11-24-2023, 11:11 AM)samhain Wrote: I think the Bengals as an organization have a difficult time coming around to the idea that interior linemen are no longer second tier in terms of position value.  Tackles may make more, but the disparity is far less than it used to be.  They improved with Karras and Cappa, but they gave the big money to Brown.  They evaluate guard and center pretty poorly.  The last "great" guard they drafted was Zeitler.  Price was an early round guy and he was a righteous bust.  

If you aren't succeeding in drafting good interior OL, then you're either going to pay big money in fa or maintain a steady stream of poor to mediocre lines.  They have never wanted to pay for high end guards or centers in fa.  Not even their own.  It was foretold very early on that both Zeitler and Steinbach would get paid someplace other than Cincinnati.  

The Bengals have recently taken a positive step with Cappa and Karras, but it's still been a half measure.  They were better than what we had, but they are far from great.  This year they've been pretty bad.  

The Volson situation is confounding.  I could never wrap my head around a 5th round rookie starting from day 1 to protect the most important human in the organization.  Maybe ever.  Some teams have the talent evaluation skill to identify and utilize unknown prospects at the NFL level, but when it comes to the line, the Bengals are not one of them.

The Bengals have steered toward mediocrity in the interior since forever.  Even when they get a really good player, he's rarely kept long term.  Then they can't replace him.  See Zeitler and the long list of retreads and clowns that followed him before Cappa arrived.  The John Millers, the Alex Redmond nightmare. The XSF guy that never stayed healthy and wasn't good anyway.  Anyone remember the name Christian Westerman?  Then the Adeniji bust.  Cappa was steering back to mediocrity from abject failure.

Tackle is whatever.  Jonah was a starting caliber LT.  Reiff played acceptably before he went out.  Collins had his faults, but he also brought an big advantage in the run game.  Not bad players by any stretch.  They team has shown an ability to find a rotating cast of "good enough" at tackle.  They even signed the top available one this past year.  They haven't done that int he interior.  

Burrow's arrival held them to a higher standard in line building, thus Cappa and Karras, but it's still not enough.  It's not about money.  It's about evaluating talent and placing a real value on it at the positions of g and c.  

This.   KC was able to survive the loss of Tyreek Hill by reinforcing the interior of their OL (Thuney, Humphrey and Smith) with one high priced FA and two really good draft picks (a 2nd and 6th round picks).   I still believe losing Hill was a mistake, but their approach to strengthening the IOL has born fruit.  This is what has been missing for Burrow.  I applaud their strengthening their edges, and the efforts to strengthen the interior. but the focus needs to be the interior.  Give Burrow a solid interior pocket to step up into and he'll carve defenses up.

That needs to be the focus this year.  Whatever money we have needs to be reserved for Tee, Reader and Williams - players we know are good.

We need to do a better job drafting in the interior - and IDL next.

[samhain]

(11-24-2023, 11:58 AM)3wt Wrote: This.   KC was able to survive the loss of Tyreek Hill by reinforcing the interior of their OL (Thuney, Humphrey and Smith) with one high priced FA and two really good draft picks (a 2nd and 6th round picks).   I still believe losing Hill was a mistake, but their approach to strengthening the IOL has born fruit.  This is what has been missing for Burrow.  I applaud their strengthening their edges, and the efforts to strengthen the interior. but the focus needs to be the interior.  Give Burrow a solid interior pocket to step up into and he'll carve defenses up.

That needs to be the focus this year.  Whatever money we have needs to be reserved for Tee, Reader and Williams - players we know are good.

We need to do a better job drafting in the interior - and IDL next.

I'd love to find a top notch center.  I can't remember the last time they had one here.  It's screwed up that the best in recent memory is Richie Braham.  Braham was a fine player, but he was far from top 5 or possibly even 10 in the league.  Hell, Teddy Karras could legitimately be the best we've seen since.  Everyone else has been mediocre to flat out bad.  You'd think that due to sheer time and probability, they'd accidentally run into one once every 30 years or so.

[Essex Johnson]

(11-24-2023, 11:48 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Largely by virtue of having the lowest intended air yards and completed air yards of his career too and even that's marginal at best if you look at rate. Last year he was sacked on 6.3% of his pass attempts. This year he was sacked on 6.2% of his pass attempts which is still 17th in the NFL.

Anyone can lower sacks at least a bit by having a hyper quick dink-and-dunk offense. Just means you've neutered your offense to do so.

Burrow was getting 1.2 less air yards per completion this year than last, and 2.0 yards less than 2021. He was 26th in AVG.

U can't just blame line for those stats, again fact is line has improved and we don't need 5 new starters and there are others needs also. I think they do what I laid out will help.

[Bing Ghuls]

Did not read the whole thread, so I am probably repeating what a lot of others have already said.

1. We have tried brining in better players, but that was not enough. Time to look at coaching.

2. Bengals have been trying very hard to fix the o-line. Devoted a lot of free agent money and high draft picks. So I do believe they will not hesitate to do what it takes. When they do spend money they want results. And Pollack has not produced.

[Bing Ghuls]

(11-24-2023, 11:48 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Largely by virtue of having the lowest intended air yards and completed air yards of his career too and even that's marginal at best if you look at rate. Last year he was sacked on 6.3% of his pass attempts. This year he was sacked on 6.2% of his pass attempts which is still 17th in the NFL.

Anyone can lower sacks at least a bit by having a hyper quick dink-and-dunk offense. Just means you've neutered your offense to do so.

Burrow was getting 1.2 less air yards per completion this year than last, and 2.0 yards less than 2021. He was 26th in AVG.

This.

Was going to make the same point, but decided to actually read the thread first.

[NotBigzo]

Not much we can do other then draft a home run diamondin the rough.

We already put forth the effort in fa spending and prolly need to invest in the d line this draft. Need to start looking at coaching and scheme.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(11-24-2023, 03:07 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: 1) Volson should be a back up. Williams most likely will be too expensive to re-sign.

2) They may be able to upgrade Volson in free agency at a reasonable price. Should be able to draft an OT in the 1st or 2nd to compete for the starting job.

3) identify which run scheme you want to run then identify the players that fit what you want to do. No more of this square peg-round hole crap.

4) Stop throwing the ball a league high and running the ball a league low. If opposing defenses rush the passer every play they’d be right 70% of the time. Exposing your QB to that many pass rush attempts increases his risk for injury. The formation and play calling makes it easier for the defense when it should be doing the opposite. Try some pre-snap movements to produce favorable matchups.

5) Get a RB with better decision making, can make the first man miss, and can pass block.

This is one of the best posts in this thread.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(11-24-2023, 02:05 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: U can't just blame line for those stats, again fact is line has improved and we don't need 5 new starters and there are others needs also. I think they do what I laid out will help.

I don't just blame the line for those stats (though they are anything but blameless). I am just not also ignoring that the slight improvement came at a huge cost to the offense being worth a damn. The sack % barely improved (0.1%), the rushing YPC barely improved (went from 29th to 26th), and all it cost was our passing and scoring offense being terrible.

I am fine with your 1-4 so long as it's replacing Jonah and not re-signing (don't triple down on a bad pick with a large sum of money). Also so long as Mixon isn't back as honestly I am leaning towards replacing the entire RB room and RB coach with them.

[Essex Johnson]

(11-24-2023, 04:21 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I don't just blame the line for those stats (though they are anything but blameless). I am just not also ignoring that the slight improvement came at a huge cost to the offense being worth a damn. The sack % barely improved (0.1%), the rushing YPC barely improved (went from 29th to 26th), and all it cost was our passing and scoring offense being terrible.

I am fine with your 1-4 so long as it's replacing Jonah and not re-signing (don't triple down on a bad pick with a large sum of money). Also so long as Mixon isn't back as honestly I am leaning towards replacing the entire RB room and RB coach with them.

I don't think Williams is a bad player, not lived up to 1st round pick but much better than many tackles out there now, I don't want a draft pick to replace him though , too much risk, we know we have with him .