Shotgun vs. Under Center and our effectiveness

[*bengalfan74*]

First off, Joe Burrow is our QB 1,000% this is not a post about Jake Browning taking over in any way shape or form, squash that.

Secondly, I realize all the play station kids, analytics, stat geeks will be heated and post lists of stats. I don't care

This offense has shown an effectiveness, a chemistry, an ability, these last two games we haven't seen much. There's a flow, a chemistry to this O that's just missing in the all shotgun O a lot of the time !! Sure when the shotgun is firing on all cylinders it's great. Joe Burrow can carve some teams up.

But when teams with a great pass rush face off against us and play two deep safeties we struggle, sometimes a lot !! What's missing ? the running game and playaction. I can remember I think it was Ryan Clark talking about how defenses have it much easier facing shotgun and especially empty sets. They know what's coming. Our screen games rarely gets much out of shotgun. Mixon can't run out of shotgun. Perhaps Chase Brown will change that ?

I'm just hoping when we get Burrow back they don't go back to basically all shotgun sets !! We started doing a bit of under center before Joe got hurt but it was still just here and there.

We need to be like at least 60% shotgun 40% under center, or 65% SG 35% UC. We have to get more balance in our offense for several reasons.

My biggest question of all is how sustainable is the all shotgun O long term. Can JB survive healthy for ten more seasons without some running game, some play action?? Some effective screen game. Him not having to carry the load getting sacked out the wazoo.

Learn from this ZT and the brain trust that calls the O.

[KillerGoose]

Both depths allow for different looks. Going under center provides more flexibility in your run game. You can attack both sides of the line as well as the edges more effectively. In shotgun, you tend to be more limited. However, shotgun runs are typically more efficient. Mixon averages more yards per carry from shotgun than under center, converts more short yardage situations than under center etc. I chalk this up to personnel. It isn't often you see a QB in shotgun with one WR and three tight ends, for example.

Cincinnati needs to incorporate both into their offense and historically, they do. In 2021, Cincinnati went shotgun 62% of the time. In 2022, they went shotgun 78% of the time. This year is a bit of an outlier due to Burrow's injury. Also, just to note but you can run playaction from shotgun and it works just as well. The Bengals are also RPO heavy in the shotgun. They are generating conflict, it isn't missing. However, mixing up the looks can help be more effective.

[TecmoBengals]

(12-11-2023, 01:23 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: First off, Joe Burrow is our QB 1,000% this is not a post about Jake Browning taking over in any way shape or form, squash that.

Unless Browning wins the Super Bowl and Super Bowl MVP. 
Great post and you make excellent points!

[*bengalfan74*]

(12-11-2023, 01:37 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Both depths allow for different looks. Going under center provides more flexibility in your run game. You can attack both sides of the line as well as the edges more effectively. In shotgun, you tend to be more limited. However, shotgun runs are typically more efficient. Mixon averages more yards per carry from shotgun than under center, converts more short yardage situations than under center etc. I chalk this up to personnel. It isn't often you see a QB in shotgun with one WR and three tight ends, for example.

Cincinnati needs to incorporate both into their offense and historically, they do. In 2021, Cincinnati went shotgun 62% of the time. In 2022, they went shotgun 78% of the time. This year is a bit of an outlier due to Burrow's injury. Also, just to note but you can run playaction from shotgun and it works just as well. The Bengals are also RPO heavy in the shotgun. They are generating conflict, it isn't missing. However, mixing up the looks can help be more effective.

All I know is there have been many times in many games and I'm not talking about the games early this season with JB's calf issue, leave them out. Anyways our offense looks lost. The running game has been mostly ineffective out of the mostly shotgun O. It's either feast of famine !! We're either lighting the scoreboard up 350 yards passing. Or we look like it's the first day of training camp.

We abandon the run game way to early because it's getting nowhere. We're facing a Dline that could care less about the run. They're pinning their ears back, kill Burrow on two, ready break. They've got nothing to worry about because nothing but the bomb works.

I just strongly feel that if ZT and JB would incorporate something other than all shotgun all the time our offense would benefit. Less three and outs, less wear and tear on JB. And so on.

[Bengalitis]

Browning reminds me of Boomer Esaison, his coolness under pressure and playing style.

[*bengalfan74*]

(12-11-2023, 01:47 PM)TecmoBengals Wrote: Unless Browning wins the Super Bowl and Super Bowl MVP. 
Great post and you make excellent points!

Jake Browning has shocked me beyond belief. I'm just hoping he can sustain it, some.

[TecmoBengals]

(12-11-2023, 02:09 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: All I know is there have been many times in many games and I'm not talking about the games early this season with JB's calf issue, leave them out. Anyways our offense looks lost. The running game has been mostly ineffective out of the mostly shotgun O. It's either feast of famine !! We're either lighting the scoreboard up 350 yards passing. Or we look like it's the first day of training camp.

We abandon the run game way to early because it's getting nowhere. We're facing a Dline that could care less about the run. They're pinning their ears back, kill Burrow on two, ready break. They've got nothing to worry about because nothing but the bomb works.

I just strongly feel that if ZT and JB would incorporate something other than all shotgun all the time our offense would benefit. Less three and outs, less wear and tear on JB. And so on.

Maybe a healthier Burrow makes all this easier for Taylor to implement. It was a rough season for Burrow. Browning's thus far success with a balanced offense along with a healthy (fingers crossed) Burrow could hopefully lead to the offense clicking next year in the pass/run game and under center/shotgun formations with Joey B at the helm.

[*Synric*]

(12-11-2023, 01:37 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Both depths allow for different looks. Going under center provides more flexibility in your run game. You can attack both sides of the line as well as the edges more effectively. In shotgun, you tend to be more limited. However, shotgun runs are typically more efficient. Mixon averages more yards per carry from shotgun than under center, converts more short yardage situations than under center etc. I chalk this up to personnel. It isn't often you see a QB in shotgun with one WR and three tight ends, for example.

The negative to helping the run game while under center is has limitations on the passing offense. QB starts closer to the LOS and it uses a fraction more bit more time getting depth away from the LOS. In playaction the QBs eyes leave his receivers and worse the DL. Typically you want a heavier personnel under center so you can chip the DL to give the QB time to drop. Everything is tigher underneath because the players are closer because again typically bigger personnel.

Shotgun can limit the run angles but it also has the most advantages for the QB. More depth, can get extra depth, better vision, usually lighter personnel groupings. Etc.

[KillerGoose]

(12-11-2023, 02:20 PM)Synric Wrote: The negative to helping the run game while under center is has limitations on the passing offense. QB starts closer to the LOS and it uses a fraction more bit more time getting depth away from the LOS. In playaction the QBs eyes leave his receivers and worse the DL. Typically you want a heavier personnel under center so you can chip the DL to give the QB time to drop. Everything is tigher underneath because the players are closer because again typically bigger personnel.

Shotgun can limit the run angles but it also has the most advantages for the QB. More depth, can get extra depth, better vision, usually lighter personnel groupings. Etc.

Yeah, I think I have heard either Burrow or one of the coaches talk about this. He doesn't like to turn his back on the defense and it's a big reason why Burrow likes to line up in empty. He is not only in shotgun and can see everything but the defense is spread out and it allows him to diagnose everything easier. Of course, there are tradeoffs to everything so it's all a balancing act.

[KillerGoose]

(12-11-2023, 02:09 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: All I know is there have been many times in many games and I'm not talking about the games early this season with JB's calf issue, leave them out. Anyways our offense looks lost. The running game has been mostly ineffective out of the mostly shotgun O. It's either feast of famine !! We're either lighting the scoreboard up 350 yards passing. Or we look like it's the first day of training camp.

We abandon the run game way to early because it's getting nowhere. We're facing a Dline that could care less about the run. They're pinning their ears back, kill Burrow on two, ready break. They've got nothing to worry about because nothing but the bomb works.

I just strongly feel that if ZT and JB would incorporate something other than all shotgun all the time our offense would benefit. Less three and outs, less wear and tear on JB. And so on.

The running game issues are partially due to overuse of shotgun, yes, but also partially due to personnel. Mixon is the lead back and while he has some things he is good at, he isn't a good enough runner to be the guy. He's not dynamic enough. He doesn't have the speed, quickness or "bag" to make people miss consistently. It's not a coincidence that the running game is coming to life with contributions from Chase Brown. When we try to talk about a guy who is dynamic, Brown fits that bill. You combine that with Cincinnati involving more under center looks and boom, you have a more productive run game. Still not great, but more productive. 

Also, to your last point, ZT and JB do incorporate something other than all shotgun all the time. That was strictly this year, and largely due to Joe's injury. I already provided the splits for the previous two years. Joe has been in shotgun between 62% and 78% of the time in 2021 and 2022. It wasn't until this year that it was shotgun only. 

[Whatever]

(12-11-2023, 03:38 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: The running game issues are partially due to overuse of shotgun, yes, but also partially due to personnel. Mixon is the lead back and while he has some things he is good at, he isn't a good enough runner to be the guy. He's not dynamic enough. He doesn't have the speed, quickness or "bag" to make people miss consistently. It's not a coincidence that the running game is coming to life with contributions from Chase Brown. When we try to talk about a guy who is dynamic, Brown fits that bill. You combine that with Cincinnati involving more under center looks and boom, you have a more productive run game. Still not great, but more productive. 

Also, to your last point, ZT and JB do incorporate something other than all shotgun all the time. That was strictly this year, and largely due to Joe's injury. I already provided the splits for the previous two years. Joe has been in shotgun between 62% and 78% of the time in 2021 and 2022. It wasn't until this year that it was shotgun only. 

The run game honestly underwhelmed in this one.  Mixon only averaged 3.8 ypc and Brown 3.1.  

Folks are also looking at the total number of carries and not looking at situations.  We ran the ball 12 times after taking a 28-14 lead late in the third.  Well, that makes sense.  We're trying to chew clock late with a multi-possession lead.  Before that point, 8 of our runs came inside the Colts' 10.  Mixon literally got stuffed on 3 out of 4 attempts from inside the Colts' 2 yard line.  So we ran 8 times trying to punch it in in goal to go situations and the only reason we ran it that much was our goal line package struggled.

[NUGDUKWE]

(12-11-2023, 01:37 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Both depths allow for different looks. Going under center provides more flexibility in your run game. You can attack both sides of the line as well as the edges more effectively. In shotgun, you tend to be more limited. However, shotgun runs are typically more efficient. Mixon averages more yards per carry from shotgun than under center, converts more short yardage situations than under center etc. I chalk this up to personnel. It isn't often you see a QB in shotgun with one WR and three tight ends, for example.

Cincinnati needs to incorporate both into their offense and historically, they do. In 2021, Cincinnati went shotgun 62% of the time. In 2022, they went shotgun 78% of the time. This year is a bit of an outlier due to Burrow's injury. Also, just to note but you can run playaction from shotgun and it works just as well. The Bengals are also RPO heavy in the shotgun. They are generating conflict, it isn't missing. However, mixing up the looks can help be more effective.

I had heard the stat about Mixon just recently that like you said he historically has better ypc out of shotgun. But it was also mentioned that he had a higher explosive play percentage from under center. Not really sure what that stat shows but found it interesting. The 2022 shotgun percentage I think may have really been higher for most of the year. I seem to remember us trying to go under center only to scrap it and go all shotgun after the 1st handful of games. I certainly wouldn't change the offense completely but we do need to incorporate this into the offense more. Regardless what happens this year the most important thing is trying to get better for the future.

[NUGDUKWE]

(12-11-2023, 04:25 PM)Whatever Wrote: The run game honestly underwhelmed in this one.  Mixon only averaged 3.8 ypc and Brown 3.1.  

Folks are also looking at the total number of carries and not looking at situations.  We ran the ball 12 times after taking a 28-14 lead late in the third.  Well, that makes sense.  We're trying to chew clock late with a multi-possession lead.  Before that point, 8 of our runs came inside the Colts' 10.  Mixon literally got stuffed on 3 out of 4 attempts from inside the Colts' 2 yard line.  So we ran 8 times trying to punch it in in goal to go situations and the only reason we ran it that much was our goal line package struggled.

I was expecting a bit more out of the run game. But Mixon was averaging just over 4 before the end of the game. He didn't fall below until the end and as you said he had several goal line runs that weren't terribly effective hurting his ypc. That's why I'm a little suspect of those stats at times. But I would agree that it underwhelmed due to the fact that the Colts are not very good at stopping the run. But if you force teams to actively focus on stopping the run and hit them early and often. Then you just open it up for Jake the snake to take them to Brown town or whatever they said in the locker room after the game.

[Joelist]

Goal line runs do kill YPC. Especially when they are inside the 5.