Tee Higgins…. Steelers have Interest

[Bengalbug]

(04-17-2024, 02:22 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I am using my eye balls Bengalbug and no way Tee Higgins is faster than AJ Green in his prime on deep routes, no way.

If you cannot see that Tee is slower than Ja'Marr on short routes I just don't know what to say. You guys are saying Tee is a #1, well 
we have a #1 on our own team to compare him to and sorry, he falls short by a long ways of Ja'Marr Chase the WR we need to pay.

Well, from everything I can find, AJ green never had a documented speed over 20.5 MPH. I know this shocks you, but Tee Higgins and AJ green are similar speed, especially deep.

Where did I ever say that Tee is as fast as Jamar? I know this. I’ve never put tee in top 12. In fact the only people who keep wanting to compare Higgins to Chase/jefferson is folks like you.

We will pay Chase, that’s not a question, the question is, has been and always will be, does trading tee Higgins help/hurt the bengals in the short term and long term.

I was in the trade tee camp at the start of free agency. I figured you might be able to backfill the production with a vet WR and/or the bengals could potentially go after a game Wrecker at another position to get positional strength. With FA all but dried up, tee Higgins as a bengal, provides the best chance of the bengals getting back to the Super Bowl. I also feel like if you trade tee Higgins, you are getting Pennie’s on the dollar.

[Whatever]

(04-17-2024, 02:22 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Tee Higgins can take a short pass to the house.

https://www.nfl.com/videos/can-t-miss-play-80-yard-td-tee-higgins-long-score-has-similar-aesthetic-to-picke

We are simply just saying things that are not true at this point

So because a guy did it once on a busted coverage, the S taking a terrible angle, and defenders literally jogging after him because they aren't killing themselves with a 24 point lead, he's a threat?  Ok.

[Whatever]

(04-17-2024, 11:05 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Well, from everything I can find, AJ green never had a documented speed over 20.5 MPH.  I know this shocks you, but Tee Higgins and AJ green are similar speed, especially deep.

Where did I ever say that Tee is as fast as Jamar?  I know this.  I’ve never put tee in top 12.  In fact the only people who keep wanting to compare Higgins to Chase/jefferson is folks like you.  

We will pay Chase, that’s not a question,  the question is, has been and always will be, does trading tee Higgins help/hurt  the bengals in the short term and long term.

I was in the trade tee camp at the start of free agency.  I figured you might be able to backfill the production with a vet WR and/or the bengals could potentially go after a game Wrecker at another position to get positional strength.  With FA all but dried up, tee Higgins as a bengal, provides the best chance of the bengals getting back to the Super Bowl.   I also feel like if you trade tee Higgins, you are getting Pennie’s on the dollar.

Next Gen stats weren't even a thing for most of AJ's career.

FWIW, AJ ran a 4.48 at the Combine.  Higgins ran 4.59, over a tenth slower. They do not have similar deep speed.  

[J24]

(04-17-2024, 11:05 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Well, from everything I can find, AJ green never had a documented speed over 20.5 MPH.  I know this shocks you, but Tee Higgins and AJ green are similar speed, especially deep.

Where did I ever say that Tee is as fast as Jamar?  I know this.  I’ve never put tee in top 12.  In fact the only people who keep wanting to compare Higgins to Chase/jefferson is folks like you.  

We will pay Chase, that’s not a question,  the question is, has been and always will be, does trading tee Higgins help/hurt  the bengals in the short term and long term.

I was in the trade tee camp at the start of free agency.  I figured you might be able to backfill the production with a vet WR and/or the bengals could potentially go after a game Wrecker at another position to get positional strength.  With FA all but dried up, tee Higgins as a bengal, provides the best chance of the bengals getting back to the Super Bowl.   I also feel like if you trade tee Higgins, you are getting Pennie’s on the dollar.

Second part of the you're post is key; 

 It's slim pickens to get a veteran WR. Is anyone really comfortable with Marquez valdes-scantling or O'Dell Beckham has your 2nd WR? Maybe you could resign Boyd.

You could trade for Sutton from Denver or Hopkins from Tennessee but that would require giving up significant draft capital as well.

[Bengalbug]

(04-18-2024, 12:14 AM)Whatever Wrote: So because a guy did it once on a busted coverage, the S taking a terrible angle, and defenders literally jogging after him because they aren't killing themselves with a 24 point lead, he's a threat?  Ok.

Do you have any idea how dismissive you sound? Jamar Chase has had plenty of similar plays, especially his rookie year.

Some people said “tee can’t take a 5 yard to the house”. I present a play that tee did that. The people say “well it’s bc of xyz”.

Do you, and others, think tee Higgins is even an above average player?

[Bengalbug]

(04-18-2024, 12:21 AM)Whatever Wrote: Next Gen stats weren't even a thing for most of AJ's career.

FWIW, AJ ran a 4.48 at the Combine.  Higgins ran 4.59, over a tenth slower. They do not have similar deep speed.  

Next gen came out in 2014.

40 times are a good bar and something to measure against. But straight line 40 speed in gym shorts is not the best indicator of football speed. You know that.

Derrick Henry ran a 4.59 40, yet he has had some of the fastest plays in the nfl since 2020.

This year (age 30) - Derrick Henry reached a top speed of 21.68 mph on his 69-yard run, tied for the 7th-fastest speed by a ball carrier this season, and Henry's fastest play since Week 6, 2021 (career-high 21.80 mph).

Long story short, Derrick Henry has run as fast in a game as Jamar Chase, and he was over 2 tenths of a second slower running in shorts.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-17-2024, 10:28 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I knew Tee was a little on the slow side during his rookie year on this play against the Colts.

https://youtu.be/llYvcrbNeiM?si=MyohMHY30keWBiVk

Thought that was going to be 6 for sure.

Yeah, Chase takes that to the house.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-17-2024, 11:05 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Well, from everything I can find, AJ green never had a documented speed over 20.5 MPH.  I know this shocks you, but Tee Higgins and AJ green are similar speed, especially deep.

Where did I ever say that Tee is as fast as Jamar?  I know this.  I’ve never put tee in top 12.  In fact the only people who keep wanting to compare Higgins to Chase/jefferson is folks like you.  

We will pay Chase, that’s not a question,  the question is, has been and always will be, does trading tee Higgins help/hurt  the bengals in the short term and long term.

I was in the trade tee camp at the start of free agency.  I figured you might be able to backfill the production with a vet WR and/or the bengals could potentially go after a game Wrecker at another position to get positional strength.  With FA all but dried up, tee Higgins as a bengal, provides the best chance of the bengals getting back to the Super Bowl.   I also feel like if you trade tee Higgins, you are getting Pennie’s on the dollar.

Disagree on Tee and AJ's speed being similar. AJ was way faster with his short and deep speed. AJ pulled away from Corners back in the day
and played faster in pads. There are plenty of highlights proving this. This is what we are doing, comparing Tee to #1 WR's, AJ and Ja'Marr are
#1 WR's, if you don't want to compare him to them it is very telling.

Tee wants to be paid like a #1 and you guys are saying he is a #1 and then you backtrack when he is compared to true #1's lol

[Bengalbug]

(04-18-2024, 01:21 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Disagree on Tee and AJ's speed being similar. AJ was way faster with his short and deep speed. AJ pulled away from Corners back in the day
and played faster in pads. There are plenty of highlights proving this. This is what we are doing, comparing Tee to #1 WR's, AJ and Ja'Marr are
#1 WR's, if you don't want to compare him to them it is very telling.

Tee wants to be paid like a #1 and you guys are saying he is a #1 and then you backtrack when he is compared to true #1's lol

Define number 1 for me. There are elite players at every position, call it a handful. Then there are a group of players that are high end footballl players but not elite. Comparing Tee Higgins to Jamar Chase would be like saying Trey Hendrickson stinks because he isn’t myles garret.

The whole point is tee Higgins gives the bengals a better chance to win in 2024 over a rookie.

I’ve never said number one, BTW, I have maintained top 20… and he is not in the top 12.

As far as AJ and tees speed, I guess we will just believe what you want, although the documented facts say otherwise. I don’t really care, the whole point here was that tee does have the speed necessary to be a multi level threat, he has proven it before and he might just be as fast or faster than maybe the best bengals WR all time.

[Bengalbug]

(04-18-2024, 01:17 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah, Chase takes that to the house.

And Chase doesn’t score the TD tee does against the Vikings. Different players, different strength. That is the beauty of the two together, they compliment one another so well.

[Bengalbug]

(04-18-2024, 01:21 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Disagree on Tee and AJ's speed being similar. AJ was way faster with his short and deep speed. AJ pulled away from Corners back in the day
and played faster in pads. There are plenty of highlights proving this. This is what we are doing, comparing Tee to #1 WR's, AJ and Ja'Marr are
#1 WR's, if you don't want to compare him to them it is very telling.

Tee wants to be paid like a #1 and you guys are saying he is a #1 and then you backtrack when he is compared to true #1's lol

Nate, can you finish this for me, based one your assessment.

“Tee Higgins is a top ____ receiver”.

This is a general question, I’m not going to ask for a list or anything. But top 15, 20, 25? Is he top 50? I’m just trying to get a sense of where you value him in relation to his peers.

[J24]

(04-18-2024, 01:21 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Disagree on Tee and AJ's speed being similar. AJ was way faster with his short and deep speed. AJ pulled away from Corners back in the day
and played faster in pads. There are plenty of highlights proving this. This is what we are doing, comparing Tee to #1 WR's, AJ and Ja'Marr are
#1 WR's, if you don't want to compare him to them it is very telling.

Tee wants to be paid like a #1 and you guys are saying he is a #1 and then you backtrack when he is compared to true #1's lol

We have 2 #1 Wrs; how is it this hard to comprehend? I would say the same things about the Eagles, Dolphins, Texans, and Rams.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(04-18-2024, 02:04 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Define number 1 for me.  There are elite players at every position, call it a handful. Then there are a group of players that are high end footballl players but not elite. Comparing Tee Higgins to Jamar Chase would be like saying Trey Hendrickson stinks because he isn’t myles garret.

The whole point is tee Higgins gives the bengals a better chance to win in 2024 over a rookie.  

I’ve never said number one, BTW, I have maintained top 20… and he is not in the top 12.

As far as AJ and tees speed, I guess we will just believe what you want, although the documented facts say otherwise. I don’t really care, the whole point here was that tee does have the speed necessary to be a multi level threat, he has proven it before and he might just be as fast or faster than maybe the best bengals WR all time.

The best WR on your team is a #1, pretty simple. That is Chase on this team, I do agree Tee probably gives us a better chance to win 
this year if he is healthy. But if we can get another pick to help the team in a trade it might help the team even more.

As Whatever said, AJ ran a 4.48 forty and Tee ran a 4.59 forty, much slower and this is just short speed. If you don't remember AJ going
deep he was one of the best ever. He was a natural going deep down the sideline and had great feet for toe tapping.

(04-18-2024, 02:05 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: And Chase doesn’t score the TD tee does against the Vikings.  Different players, different strength.  That is the beauty of the two together, they compliment one another so well.

Maybe, Chase is insanely strong, he could of scored that TD too. But agree, they do complement each other very well.

(04-18-2024, 02:15 PM)Bengalbug Wrote: Nate, can you finish this for me, based one your assessment.  

“Tee Higgins is a top ____ receiver”.  

This is a general question, I’m not going to ask for a list or anything.  But top 15, 20, 25?  Is he top 50?  I’m just trying to get a sense of where you value him in relation to his peers.

Tee Higgins is a top 25 Receiver in the NFL. Definitely one of the top #2 WR's just below DeVonte Smith who just got paid and that 
is what I believe Tee should be paid, just below that extension. Sounds like he wants more than that though which is ridiculous.

(04-18-2024, 03:20 PM)J24 Wrote: We have 2 #1 Wrs; how is it this hard to comprehend? I would say the same things about the Eagles, Dolphins, Texans, and Rams.

I don't believe it with Tee, not yet. He needs to stay healthy and put up the 1,300 yards and 10+ TD's you mentioned in the other thread
before I believe he is a #1 WR.

[Whatever]

(04-18-2024, 11:17 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: Next gen came out in 2014.

40 times are a good bar and something to measure against. But straight line 40 speed in gym shorts is not the best indicator of football speed.  You know that.  

Derrick Henry ran a 4.59 40, yet he has had some of the fastest plays in the nfl since 2020.

This year (age 30) - Derrick Henry reached a top speed of 21.68 mph on his 69-yard run, tied for the 7th-fastest speed by a ball carrier this season, and Henry's fastest play since Week 6, 2021 (career-high 21.80 mph).

Long story short, Derrick Henry has run as fast in a game as Jamar Chase, and he was over 2 tenths of a second slower running in shorts.

The 40 is typically used as a measure due to the fact that players are almost never running 60+ yards in a relatively straight line to pick up that kind of speed.  Almost all players are still accelerating when they hit that 40 yard mark.  It doesn't really help a receiver as a deep threat unless you've got a freak QB who can throw an accurate ball 60-70 yards down field.  

Beyond that, we have statistical proof that Tee isn't a deep threat.  He averages just over 2 40+ yard catches a season, which is bad for a starting WR in the NFL.  Plus, watching the games, all his catches of this nature are either busted coverages(like your Steelers clip or the Colts clip) or the QB squeezing it into him while he's got defenders draped all over him.  So, we don't need to theorycraft about 40 times and mph.  We know for a fact he isn't because of years of poor results in that area.

[Bengalbug]

(04-19-2024, 09:21 AM)Whatever Wrote: The 40 is typically used as a measure due to the fact that players are almost never running 60+ yards in a relatively straight line to pick up that kind of speed.  Almost all players are still accelerating when they hit that 40 yard mark.  It doesn't really help a receiver as a deep threat unless you've got a freak QB who can throw an accurate ball 60-70 yards down field.  

Beyond that, we have statistical proof that Tee isn't a deep threat.  He averages just over 2 40+ yard catches a season, which is bad for a starting WR in the NFL.  Plus, watching the games, all his catches of this nature are either busted coverages(like your Steelers clip or the Colts clip) or the QB squeezing it into him while he's got defenders draped all over him.  So, we don't need to theorycraft about 40 times and mph.  We know for a fact he isn't because of years of poor results in that area.

The bengals have not thrown deep the last two years. Jamar Chase has 7 such catches (40+ yards) over the last two year compared to Tees 5.

Jamar has 27 catches of 20 plus yards? Tee has 22 catches of 20 plus yards.

Not a huge deviation

[Bengalbug]

(04-19-2024, 09:21 AM)Whatever Wrote: The 40 is typically used as a measure due to the fact that players are almost never running 60+ yards in a relatively straight line to pick up that kind of speed.  Almost all players are still accelerating when they hit that 40 yard mark.  It doesn't really help a receiver as a deep threat unless you've got a freak QB who can throw an accurate ball 60-70 yards down field.  

Beyond that, we have statistical proof that Tee isn't a deep threat.  He averages just over 2 40+ yard catches a season, which is bad for a starting WR in the NFL.  Plus, watching the games, all his catches of this nature are either busted coverages(like your Steelers clip or the Colts clip) or the QB squeezing it into him while he's got defenders draped all over him.  So, we don't need to theorycraft about 40 times and mph.  We know for a fact he isn't because of years of poor results in that area.

You’re the one who brought up the 40 for AJ green and Tee. I was pointing out actual top game speed, which Has Tee as faster. This conversation is going in circles.

My takeaway is that Tee sucks, he can’t separate and he only excels when there is busted coverage.

Got it.

[tms]

As a long-time draftnik, one of the things that often bugs me is how we bring down certain prospects to justify picking the players we want. My thing is, both guys can be good. It's that simple. It's usually no more than a matter of taste. I'm not a big Byron Murphy fan, for example. I think he's undersized and will have trouble getting his game off in the NFL. But I won't throw my hands up in disgust if we pick him. He's a "tryer"- he'll figure something out and make the team better somehow, someway.

But in the age of cap gymnastics, I see that tendency extending to the pros. We want a Justin Jefferson or a reason to pick Adonai Mitchell/Xavier Worthy/Brian Thomas Jr/Ladd McConkey/whomever, so we start knocking Tee Higgins to do it. I won't succumb to that temptation. Tee Higgins is a phenomenal athlete. Correction: Phenomenal with a capital P. When you see a guy who's 6'4" and runs like a deer, it is insane to complain about his athleticism in any regard. No need to even watch him on the football field. Just look at his basketball tape. Granted, most NFLers were multi-sport athletes but Tee distinguishes himself from them too. His first step was second to none, he had a tight handle in halfcourt sets and was smooth as silk in the open floor, and of course he could jump out of the gym. He had scholarship offers from the top programs in the country (UNC, Louisville, Tennessee, Michigan, etc.) and it was like a public event when he announced he'd strictly focus on football.

He is a superb asset for this team, his ball skills leave absolutely nothing to be desired, and he's a great kid to boot. The Bengals can draft a new wide receiver, more power to them, but they'd better not be thinking they can improve on TEE HIGGINS because that would be patently absurd lol. /rant

[PDub80]

(04-19-2024, 10:31 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: You’re the one who brought up the 40 for AJ green and Tee.  I was pointing out actual top game speed, which Has Tee as faster.  This conversation is going in circles.  

My takeaway is that Tee sucks, he can’t separate and he only excels when there is busted coverage.  

Got it.

He doesn't suck. I would put him as a top 25-30 WR depending on what you're valuing.

As far as top end speed, I don't know where that ranks in terms of WR trait hierarchy of importance.

I would put it below short area quickness, suddenness, explosivity. But Tee also has some killer traits that make up for not being top tier in those areas. It's all about what you value or, more importantly, what the Nengals value in the sense of how their offense works.

Everyone, for the most part, has a valid point in criticizing or complimenting Tee as a player. He has been a GREAT player and teammate. He has stepped up big time in big games.

I would be thrilled for Tee to remain a Bengal as long is it makes sense for the team. I would be thrilled if they retooled in a different direction as long as they didn't get worse (in the long term) in the aggregate production. Meaning: Can other players make up for or do the things Tee does while a rookie WR grows into the position.

These discussions are what makes things interesting.

[Whatever]

(04-19-2024, 10:23 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: The bengals have not thrown deep the last two years.  Jamar Chase has 7 such catches (40+ yards) over the last two year compared to Tees 5.

Jamar has 27 catches of 20 plus yards? Tee has 22 catches of 20 plus yards.

Not a huge deviation

(04-19-2024, 10:31 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: You’re the one who brought up the 40 for AJ green and Tee.  I was pointing out actual top game speed, which Has Tee as faster.  This conversation is going in circles.  

My takeaway is that Tee sucks, he can’t separate and he only excels when there is busted coverage.  

Got it.

And yet Tee only had 4 such catches the first two years of his career when we were throwing it deep.  His lack of productivity deep is a Tee Higgins issue, not an offense issue.  The comp to Chase is so cherry picked it's laughable.  Chase had 8 40+ yard catches as a rookie.  Tee has 9 in his entire career.  See the difference?

40 time was brought up because a player's top speed in mph is an extreme circumstantial outlier and not really indicative of their ability to get open deep because no QB can accurately throw the ball far enough for them to hit that speed.  

The argument isn't really circular.  The debate only continues because you refuse to admit the fact that Higgins isn't a deep threat despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.  You haven't really refuted any points that I've made, except for an attempt to cherry pick stats that I rebuked you on.

If you equate pointing out that Higgins isn't a deep threat and is a player with a very one dimensional skill set that prevents him from being a true elite WR1 as "he sucks", then that's on you.  He's a good complimentary WR and very good intermediate range target.  He's just not a WR1 and stating that isn't an insult.  

[RegularGuy22]

Seems as though I read somewhere that the Steelers had some interest in possibly working a deal with Higgins? Anybody know if this  is true or not? Also some are saying Higgins isn't a true #1 WR, what do you guys think?