RB Stable with Mixon Gone

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(05-21-2024, 05:02 PM)Joelist Wrote: One so far. We could easily see Chase Brown being the only holdover from last season. And the one they changed had the lions share of the snaps. 

I don't think they re-signed Trayveon at more than league minimum to just cut him. They seem to like him as a ST guy and KR guy, so a UDFA rookie is going to have to beat him out for both of those roles. At least Evans seems to have fallen out of favor in the return game, so he'd just need to be beaten out on ST which is quite possible.

I think "easily" is doing an awful lot of lifting in that sentence. 0 UDFAs made the Week 1 roster last year. I am expecting only 1 this year (the punter), so saying two will make it, and at the same position no less, seems like a really long shot. 

Just can't see how one can say we overhauled the RB room when likely only 1/4 guys got changed. Just like we didn't overhaul our starting OL by replacing our RT. I was really expecting at least a decent-ish draft pick to go with Moss along with a 6th-7th/priority UDFA type guy to challenge for the final STer spot.

[PDub80]

(05-21-2024, 06:42 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I don't think they re-signed Trayveon at more than league minimum to just cut him. They seem to like him as a ST guy and KR guy, so a UDFA rookie is going to have to beat him out for both of those roles. At least Evans seems to have fallen out of favor in the return game, so he'd just need to be beaten out on ST which is quite possible.

I think "easily" is doing an awful lot of lifting in that sentence. 0 UDFAs made the Week 1 roster last year. I am expecting only 1 this year (the punter), so saying two will make it, and at the same position no less, seems like a really long shot. 

Just can't see how one can say we overhauled the RB room when likely only 1/4 guys got changed. Just like we didn't overhaul our starting OL by replacing our RT. I was really expecting at least a decent-ish draft pick to go with Moss along with a 6th-7th/priority UDFA type guy to challenge for the final STer spot.

You are looking at body count

Consider how the workload will now get divided up.

[PDub80]

To the guys upset at the RB room...

Are the 2024 Bengals more explosive at RB? YES

Are the Bengals at least EQUALLY as consistent at the RB position? YES

Are the Bengals better at pass pro? YES

Are the Bengals able to platoon their RBs? YES

Consider the above and now answer.....

Is the RB room requiring the same amount of resources ($) to do all of the above? NO... It takes LESS to be at worse the same.

I don't see how people are upset at the RBs on the roster. Especially given the fact that THE BENGALS ARE A PASS FIRST TEAM.

[Soonerpeace]

(05-21-2024, 02:30 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: So you're asking minus all the ones who are better, who is better?    

- - - - -
EDIT:
Probably...
Everyone in the AFC besides the Patriots, Texans, Raiders, and Broncos.
Everyone in the NFC besides the Cowboys, Giants, Buccaneers, Saints, and Panthers (the NFCS is so bad).

...so 10th worst RB room?

No minus the ones with all pro running backs. Each team is configured differently. You said it’s a bad room. If this was the Buffalo board they’d be saying their WR room was bad. No we don’t value RB. We had bigger needs at RT & DT & WR. You are just always cynical about everything. I just asked a simple question since you seem versed on all the rosters. You named no one. Of course there’s a half dozen with star running backs. But they are good where we are.

[*jason*]

(05-21-2024, 09:20 PM)PDub80 Wrote: To the guys upset at the RB room...

Are the 2024 Bengals more explosive at RB? YES

Are the Bengals at least EQUALLY as consistent at the RB position? YES

Are the Bengals better at pass pro? YES

Are the Bengals able to platoon their RBs? YES

Consider the above and now answer.....

Is the RB room requiring the same amount of resources ($) to do all of the above? NO... It takes LESS to be at worse the same.

I don't see how people are upset at the RBs on the roster. Especially given the fact that THE BENGALS ARE A PASS FIRST TEAM.

I can only speak for myself, but I'm not upset. I'm just not that terribly impressed with Zach Moss and his five game or whatever outlier last season... Maybe Chase Brown is gonna step it up in his second season (I think he's our best hope at having a really effective back), and maybe we're gonna be better at pass blocking (remains to be seen). I just can't look at the roster and say "oh yeah; we're definitely gonna have an improved run game this year". We're a pass first team, and will be for the foreseeable future.

[*bfine32*]

(05-21-2024, 09:20 PM)PDub80 Wrote: To the guys upset at the RB room...

Are the 2024 Bengals more explosive at RB? YES

Are the Bengals at least EQUALLY as consistent at the RB position? YES

Are the Bengals better at pass pro? YES

Are the Bengals able to platoon their RBs? YES

Consider the above and now answer.....

Is the RB room requiring the same amount of resources ($) to do all of the above? NO... It takes LESS to be at worse the same.

I don't see how people are upset at the RBs on the roster. Especially given the fact that THE BENGALS ARE A PASS FIRST TEAM.

Do the Bengals have ANY proven talent at RB? No

Folks can point out a perceived weakness on the team and not be upset, but the question was:  what are your thoughts on the RB stable?

My thoughts are they are lacking in proven talent; how much they cost/ are used is moot. 

[Whatever]

(05-21-2024, 09:20 PM)PDub80 Wrote: To the guys upset at the RB room...

Are the 2024 Bengals more explosive at RB? YES

Are the Bengals at least EQUALLY as consistent at the RB position? YES

Are the Bengals better at pass pro? YES

Are the Bengals able to platoon their RBs? YES

Consider the above and now answer.....

Is the RB room requiring the same amount of resources ($) to do all of the above? NO... It takes LESS to be at worse the same.

I don't see how people are upset at the RBs on the roster. Especially given the fact that THE BENGALS ARE A PASS FIRST TEAM.

Zack Moss ran a 4.65 40.  We are less explosive at RB.  

We are also less consistent.  Moss has only one season with over 500 rushing yards.  He averaged 4.3 YPC behind PFF's #3 OL last year.  Mixon averaged 4.1.  And Chase Brown is feast or famine.

We are better at pass pro.

We have like two RB's worth giving snaps to.  That's not platooning.  Hypothetically, they want Moss and Brown to split carries, but what if one goes down?

[*Synric*]

(05-21-2024, 09:20 PM)PDub80 Wrote: To the guys upset at the RB room...

(1) Are the 2024 Bengals more explosive at RB? YES

(2) Are the Bengals at least EQUALLY as consistent at the RB position? YES

(3) Are the Bengals better at pass pro? YES

(4) Are the Bengals able to platoon their RBs? YES

Consider the above and now answer.....

Is the RB room requiring the same amount of resources ($) to do all of the above? NO... It takes LESS to be at worse the same.

I don't see how people are upset at the RBs on the roster. Especially given the fact that THE BENGALS ARE A PASS FIRST TEAM.

1. No. The only difference between 2023 and 2024 running back rooms is swapping Mixon for Moss. Moss isn't known for his speed.

2. No. Joe Mixon wasn't an elite running back but he was the model of consistency. The Bengals current RB room has not proven they can play at that level yet. 

3. Yes. Mixon was terrible and Moss has shown some promise as a pass protector.

4. Yes but they always could just never have outside of Perine. 

[coachmcneil71]

(05-20-2024, 05:29 PM)kevin Wrote: What if Chase Brown is as good as he looked ?

We also know Moss from Colts can flat out catch for a HB.

Moss was the hottest RB in the NFL just before Taylor returned. He was killing it. 

[PDub80]

(05-21-2024, 10:36 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Do the Bengals have ANY proven talent at RB? No

Folks can point out a perceived weakness on the team and not be upset, but the question was:  what are your thoughts on the RB stable?

My thoughts are they are lacking in proven talent; how much they cost/ are used is moot. 

- Proven talent at the RB position is vastly overrated in today's NFL, but that sentiment DOES depend on scheme and roster make up. Did the Chiefs have proven RB talent in 2022? 2023? NO. They didn't have some long term Bell cow guy and they won back to back SBs. Chiefs went young and dynamic at the RB spot.... Hell, they got rid of their proven RBs to do so.

Joe Mixon was a proven talent... to what end?

Production wise, what was that "proven talent" actually worth on game day? The numbers Mixon was putting up were not special in any way, shape, or form.

- I understand the question and that others have a different opinion than mine. That is A ok by me!

- How much they spend on the RB position is very relevant. To think it doesn't matter is to ignore how roster construction is done under a hard salary cap. Bengals traded the salary of 1 avg producing "proven"  RB for: Zack Moss AND Mike Gesicki AND a draft pick.

^ That is excellent roster construction and cap allocation/value. Production in the aggregate for the $ matters while working under the a hard ceiling salary cap. Joe Mixon's "proven" worth was NOT living up to the contract value the way the Bengals were using him or getting out of him. If he can do that with the Texans, good for Joe & the Texans. It wasn't happening in Cincy.

[PDub80]

(05-22-2024, 11:41 AM)coachmcneil71 Wrote: Moss was the hottest RB in the NFL just before Taylor returned. He was killing it. 

EXACTLY!

Give me a sec.... I'm about to take a huge dump on these dudes citing 40 times like it's 1945 and that's the only data that matters when determining how explosive a RB is. 

[PDub80]

(05-22-2024, 12:22 AM)Whatever Wrote: Zack Moss ran a 4.65 40.  We are less explosive at RB.  

We are also less consistent.  Moss has only one season with over 500 rushing yards.  He averaged 4.3 YPC behind PFF's #3 OL last year.  Mixon averaged 4.1.  And Chase Brown is feast or famine.

We are better at pass pro.

We have like two RB's worth giving snaps to.  That's not platooning.  Hypothetically, they want Moss and Brown to split carries, but what if one goes down?

(05-22-2024, 12:26 AM)Synric Wrote: 1. No. The only difference between 2023 and 2024 running back rooms is swapping Mixon for Moss. Moss isn't known for his speed.

2. No. Joe Mixon wasn't an elite running back but he was the model of consistency. The Bengals current RB room has not proven they can play at that level yet. 

3. Yes. Mixon was terrible and Moss has shown some promise as a pass protector.

4. Yes but they always could just never have outside of Perine. 

Joe Mixon's explosive runs last season....

Longest TD: 14 yards
10+ Yards: 27
20+: 3
30+: 1
40+: 1
50+: 0
Longest Run: 44
# of Carries: 257


Zack Moss
Longest TD: 56 yards

10+ Yards: 19
20+: 6
30+: 2
40+: 2
50+: 1
Longest Run: 56
# of Carries: 183

Chase Brown
Longest TD: 56 yards


10+ Yards: 5
20+: 2
30+: 1
40+: 0
50+: 0
Longest Run: 31
# of Carries: 44

^ Moss' role after Taylor came back was different, which is why is number, carries, etc. don't extrapolate out. Explosive runs blow the doors off mixon, with 74 fewer attempts.

Moss is better after contact than Mixon and, over the course of an entire season in a featured role, would have far more runs of 10+ yards than Joe did.

This is not a tiny 1 or 2 game sample size that I'm exaggerating. This is from a a season where he started only 8 games and STILL had major run production of 10+, 20+, etc yards. Mixon is a consistent "proven" 4 yard guy. Bengals got more explosive with Moss and Chase Brown getting a bigger role as well.

NOTE: Look at Chase Brown's runs of 20+ (2) & 30+ (1) yards. He did this on just 44 carries as a rookie. I cannot blame the O line for the lack of bigger runs when another player comes in and starts averaging out to what would be MUCH more production than Mixon if he had the touches.

^ This is why I made the statement of YES the Bengals are more explosive today than previously.


Feel free to compare RBs here: https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/advanced-stats-rb.php

[*Synric*]

(05-22-2024, 12:12 PM)PDub80 Wrote: Joe Mixon's explosive runs last season....

Longest TD: 14 yards
10+ Yards: 27
20+: 3
30+: 1
40+: 1
50+: 0
Longest Run: 44
# of Carries: 257


Zack Moss
Longest TD: 56 yards

10+ Yards: 19
20+: 6
30+: 2
40+: 2
50+: 1
Longest Run: 56
# of Carries: 183

Chase Brown
Longest TD: 56 yards


10+ Yards: 5
20+: 2
30+: 1
40+: 0
50+: 0
Longest Run: 31
# of Carries: 44

^ Moss' role after Taylor came back was different, which is why is number, carries, etc. don't extrapolate out. Explosive runs blow the doors off mixon, with 74 fewer attempts.

Moss is better after contact than Mixon and, over the course of an entire season in a featured role, would have far more runs of 10+ yards than Joe did.

This is not a tiny 1 or 2 game sample size that I'm exaggerating. This is from a a season where he started only 8 games and STILL had major run production of 10+ yards. Mixon is a consistent "proven" 4 yard guy. Bengals got more explosive with Moss and Chase Brown getting a bigger role as well.

NOTE: Look at Chase Brown's runs of 20+ (2) & 30+ (1) yards. He did this on just 44 carries as a rookie. I cannot blame the O line for the lack of bigger runs when another player comes in and starts averaging out to what would be MUCH more production than Mixon if he had the touches.


Feel free to compare RBs here: https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/advanced-stats-rb.php

This is a joke right? 

"Explosive runs" is just another term for long runs it doesn't have anything to do with speed. In fact it says alot more about the Colts #3 OL and run scheme.

For reference Audric Estime had more "explosive runs" than any other running back in the draft cycle but he is not a fast player.

[PDub80]

(05-22-2024, 12:15 PM)Synric Wrote: This is a joke right? 

"Explosive runs" is just another term for long runs it doesn't have anything to do with speed. In fact it says alot more about the Colts #3 OL and run scheme.

For reference Audric Estime had more "explosive runs" than any other running back in the draft cycle but he is not a fast player.

The only joke here is you tossing out a strawman to make this about speed. My post didn't bring up speed. It brought up explosive runs, which I just backed up with data.

This is about RESULTS on a football field. Not on a track in a straight line. This isn't 1945 where a 40 yard dash is what people should be focussing on because that's all there is to go off of. It's the age of information we're in. There's a ton of info supporting me, where is yours? You're bringing a 40 yard dash from March 2017 to the table..... and then what?

On field data shows that YES, the Bengals are more explosive with Moss & Brown platooning than they would be with Mixon & Brown. This isn't even close and I haven't even touched on yards after contact and TFL data.

- Also, I saw your "It was the O Line" stuff from a mile away and addressed that at the bottom of the post you quoted.... Chase brown didn't seem to have an issue behind the same line, did he? Seems to me we need to have a serious discussion about connecting dots and how it relates to cause & effect.

[*Synric*]

There was a rumor a the weekend after the draft the Bengals were making calls about teams RB depth. The Bears Khalil Herbert was the only name linked to the Bengals though.


Next year's RB class looks alot better than 2024.... well in May lol.

[*ochocincos*]

(05-20-2024, 03:56 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Still can't believe they didn't draft a RB. That's a bad RB room.

It's hard to get excited (at least for me) when the only RB change was letting go a 1400+ yards-from-scrimmage primary RB and getting a RBBC guy in Zack Moss who put up under 1000 yards from scrimmage last year (his best year). It wasn't like Moss has some great YPC either, so I see this only as a side-grade at best with Brown getting more playing time alongside Moss. Moss was not a true bell cow, having never had more than 183 carries in a season in his career.

This team will shift more to the running style of KC and BUF, who both have run true RBBCs in recent years.

I am hoping if that's the case that Trayveon Williams sees some additional carries too, but I did have high confidence they were going to draft a RB somewhere on Day 3.

[*Synric*]

(05-22-2024, 12:30 PM)PDub80 Wrote: The only joke here is you tossing out a strawman to make this about speed. My post didn't bring up speed. It brought up explosive runs, which I just backed up with data.

This is about RESULTS on a football field. Not on a track in a straight line. This isn't 1945 where a 40 yard dash is what people should be focussing on because that's all there is to go off of. It's the age of information we're in. There's a ton of info supporting me, where is yours? You're bringing a 40 yard dash from March 2017 to the table..... and then what?

On field data shows that YES, the Bengals are more explosive with Moss & Brown platooning than they would be with Mixon & Brown. This isn't even close and I haven't even touched on yards after contact and TFL data.

Again your data (amount of long runs) is more scheme and OL dependent so its useless when measuring "explosiveness". Like I said Audric Estime had more explosive runs than any RB in this year's draft class but he is not an explosive player.


Edit: I like Moss he wins with excellent vision and contact balance which is a hell of alot more important than speed for a RB in a gap scheme.

[Whatever]

(05-22-2024, 12:15 PM)Synric Wrote: This is a joke right? 

"Explosive runs" is just another term for long runs it doesn't have anything to do with speed. In fact it says alot more about the Colts #3 OL and run scheme.

For reference Audric Estime had more "explosive runs" than any other running back in the draft cycle but he is not a fast player.

This whole discussion is just mind blowing...

Mixon has plenty of faults, being overpaid chief among them.  He was still a proven bellcow, perennial 1k RB, and a former Pro Bowler.  I don't think he was a good scheme fit for Zac's offense, however.

Moss is a perennial 300-400 yard back who has been cut once already in his career and had an outlier 700+ yard campaign in a contract year behind an elite OL.  

Being real, Moss isn't a Joe Mixon replacement.  Moss is Samaje Perrine's replacement a year late.  They are gambling that Brown is going to replace Mixon.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

I don't see how RB has improved much.

For me, it is a slight downgrade.

Maybe Moss proves he is an RB1 for the first time ever. Maybe Brown levels up.

But those are maybes. Hope. Speculation.

Way Better: S, OT, TE, DT/3T
Slightly better: QB (health), DE, P
Same: PK, LS
Slightly worse: IOL, RB, LB
Way worse: NT/DT
Big ???'s: WR, CB

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-22-2024, 12:50 PM)Whatever Wrote: This whole discussion is just mind blowing...

Mixon has plenty of faults, being overpaid chief among them.  He was still a proven bellcow, perennial 1k RB, and a former Pro Bowler.  I don't think he was a good scheme fit for Zac's offense, however.

Moss is a perennial 300-400 yard back who has been cut once already in his career and had an outlier 700+ yard campaign in a contract year behind an elite OL.  

Being real, Moss isn't a Joe Mixon replacement.  Moss is Samaje Perrine's replacement a year late.  They are gambling that Brown is going to replace Mixon.

It is mind blowing that you even admit Mixon wasn't a good fit in Zac's Offense while arguing we are worse at RB...

Moss was the best RB in the NFL last year running out of the Shotgun, Chase Brown is extremely explosive and only had 44 carries last season.

We aren't going to be worse running the ball this season, no way. We were the worst running Offense in the NFL last season with Mixon.