Defense

[SunsetBengal]

(09-13-2024, 02:16 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Last year we were know to come out firing after halftime. The D held NE to 3 straight 3 and outs to start the 2nd half and during that time period the Pats still outscored us 3-0.

I don't think we've "talked enough" about the D's "poor" performance, because it wasn't. The O crapped the bed.

I agree, the defense played well enough to win the game. Two sustained drives on the day by the offense, when there was excellent protection just isn't going to cut it. I will say that Zac is going to have to do something about that play calling, the odds of a two yard catch turning into a 63 yard run for TD over and over just aren't that great. The running game was working, they should have ran more and took more shots down field.

[THE PISTONS]

(09-13-2024, 01:34 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Lou's defense wasn't good before Bates left.

2019: 29th overall / 25th scoring / 26th sacks / 28th turnovers / 25th 3rd down
2020: 26th overall / 22nd scoring / 32nd sacks / 27th turnovers / 20th 3rd down
2021: 18th overall / 17th scoring / 12th sacks / 17th turnovers / 22nd 3rd down
2022: 16th overall / 6th scoring / 29th sacks / 11th turnovers / 20th 3rd down
2023: 31st overall / 21st scoring / 18th sacks / 12th turnovers / 22nd 3rd down

Bates wasn't some magical juice. He had an amazing 2021 postseason which made people forget that he wasn't good that season. We had a below average defense (like we almost always do under Lou), Bates allowed a 122 QB Rating in coverage and PFF had him graded (if you put any stock in it) at 56.1... he just had an amazing postseason so we forget that he and the defense had spent the previous 18 weeks being below average.

We had a good 2021 postseason run and a good (not great) 2022 defense. Out of 5 years. Those are the outliers, not what we currently are without Bates.

The SB was catching lightning in a bottle. The Defense wouldn't play great and then they'd force clutch turnovers at like the best times.

But, yeah...aside from like the 6th in scoring or some clutch turnovers in the playoffs, the defense has been average'ish.

[higgy100]

(09-13-2024, 02:30 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I agree, the defense played well enough to win the game. Two sustained drives on the day by the offense, when there was excellent protection just isn't going to cut it. I will say that Zac is going to have to do something about that play calling, the odds of a two yard catch turning into a 63 yard run for TD over and over just aren't that great. The running game was working, they should have ran more and took more shots down field.

LOL.They did not play well enough in this type of game. If you understand football you would not say that. Got killed in TOP, killed on the ground even when NE said we're running it, missed at least 5-6 crucial easy tackles that were at or close to the LOS, gave up the same inside coverage on the slant play for multiple 3rd/2nd down conversions and in the most important defensed drive of the game NE ran for a 1st down untouched for 25 yards in 4 plays and smearing the ball in the faces of the defenders saying "here it is so stop us". If you consider all that "well enough to win" then you just flew in here from Saturn.

It is crazy to say that the Bengals played well enough defensively. NE could have reared back and thrown another 10-12 passes and scored more based on what we saw but NE was smart enough to know that their real opponent that day was not the Bengals but the clock. It was big an ass-kicking as any 6 point game could tell you.

[SunsetBengal]

(09-13-2024, 02:51 PM)higgy100 Wrote: LOL.They did NOT play well enough in this type of game. If you understand football you would not say that. Got killed in TOP, killed on the ground even when NE said we're running it, missed at least 5-6 crucial easy tackles that were at or close to the LOS, gave up the same inside coverage on the slant play for multiple 3rd/2nd down conversions and in the most important defensed drive of the game NE ran for a 1st down untouched for 25 yards in 4 plays and smearing the ball in the faces of the defenders saying "here it is so stop us". If you consider all that "well enough to win" then you just flew in here from Saturn.

It is the most asinine thing to say that the Bengals played well enough defensively. NE could have reared back and thrown another 10-12 passes and scored more based on what we saw but NE was smart enough to know that their real opponent that day was not the Bengals but the clock. It was big an ass-kicking as any 6 point game could tell you.

Actually, I do know football well enough to know that when the offense only produces two sustained drives the entire game, it's going to subject the defense to fatigue from being on the field seemingly all game long. What's asinine is not holding the coaching staff accountable for the offense's ineptitude.

[007BengalsFan]

The defense has one guy that has ever been to the Pro Bowl and even then he sucks at run support. This team does not have the talent on defense other teams have. For everyone expecting Lou, to have this great defense, forget it. He doesnt have the talent. Offense on the other hand has 4 Pro Bowlers. They did absolutely nothing against the Patriots so lets blame the defense that gave up just 16 points including a possession where Charlie Jones fumbled on the 20 yard line and gave the Pats points

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-13-2024, 02:16 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Last year we were know to come out firing after halftime. The D held NE to 3 straight 3 and outs to start the 2nd half and during that time period the Pats still outscored us 3-0.

I don't think we've "talked enough" about the D's "poor" performance, because it wasn't. The O crapped the bed.

Spot on.

The Defense needs to tackle better though that is for sure and another pass rusher besides Trey needs to step up and we need a NT.

[*ochocincos*]

(09-10-2024, 02:21 PM)J24 Wrote: We haven’t talked enough about the defense and their poor performance. They were playing the worst Offense in the league and  they should have dominated. I look at this unit and I see a lack of athleticism in the back seven, a Dline with 1 pass rusher, no nose tackle on the roster ,and I see an undisciplined unit out there.


- the Tackling was piss poor

- they forced zero turnovers

-gave up three first downs on QB scrambles. The pass rush discipline was atrocious on Sunday!

If this team is going to win anything of merit this year the defense is going to have play better!

I will agree on some but disagree on others.

The "back 7" (DBs + LBs) have actually pretty good athleticism overall.

There were some missed tackles, and those need cleaned up.
The run defense we knew was not going to be good with Rankins as the NT and Jenkins and Jackson out.
Rankins is not a traditional NT. He's always been more of a 3T size and playstyle wise.

People lauded Geno Stone because he had 7 INTs last year. But he had 1 total in all the other years combined.
Vonn Bell is not a ball hawk. He hasn't had >3 FFs any season in his career either.
CTB isn't really a ball hawk. He's only ever had 1 FF each season.
Dax Hill hasn't been a ball hawk, even in college. He doesn't cause FFs either.
Mike Hilton doesn't usually get many turnovers.

This defense misses Chido and especially Bates and Reader.
But we knew this was something that was likely to happen once the young offense (mainly Burrow) started getting big veteran contracts.
Bengals have to get some (more) good play out of their young dudes.

[casear2727]

(09-13-2024, 04:56 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I will agree on some but disagree on others.

The "back 7" (DBs + LBs) have actually pretty good athleticism overall.

There were some missed tackles, and those need cleaned up.
The run defense we knew was not going to be good with Rankins as the NT and Jenkins and Jackson out.
Rankins is not a traditional NT. He's always been more of a 3T size and playstyle wise.

People lauded Geno Stone because he had 7 INTs last year. But he had 1 total in all the other years combined.
Vonn Bell is not a ball hawk. He hasn't had >3 FFs any season in his career either.
CTB isn't really a ball hawk. He's only ever had 1 FF each season.
Dax Hill hasn't been a ball hawk, even in college. He doesn't cause FFs either.
Mike Hilton doesn't usually get many turnovers.

This defense misses Chido and especially Bates and Reader.
But we knew this was something that was likely to happen once the young offense (mainly Burrow) started getting big veteran contracts.
Bengals have to get some (more) good play out of their young dudes.

This is a terrible take. It is terrible because every word of it is true.  

[Joelist]

It all came down to tackling - they tackle properly in that game and the Pats get maybe 40 yards on the ground and no TD.

[hoosierbengal]

(09-13-2024, 01:34 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Lou's defense wasn't good before Bates left.

2019: 29th overall / 25th scoring / 26th sacks / 28th turnovers / 25th 3rd down
2020: 26th overall / 22nd scoring / 32nd sacks / 27th turnovers / 20th 3rd down
2021: 18th overall / 17th scoring / 12th sacks / 17th turnovers / 22nd 3rd down
2022: 16th overall / 6th scoring / 29th sacks / 11th turnovers / 20th 3rd down
2023: 31st overall / 21st scoring / 18th sacks / 12th turnovers / 22nd 3rd down

Bates wasn't some magical juice. He had an amazing 2021 postseason which made people forget that he wasn't good that season. We had a below average defense (like we almost always do under Lou), Bates allowed a 122 QB Rating in coverage and PFF had him graded (if you put any stock in it) at 56.1... he just had an amazing postseason so we forget that he and the defense had spent the previous 18 weeks being below average.

We had a good 2021 postseason run and a good (not great) 2022 defense. Out of 5 years. Those are the outliers, not what we currently are without 

Good point. I remember Bates catching a lot of flack for his poor play that year. Then he had a nice run in the playoffs and it flipped. However it seems he has played well for the Falcons. 

[Bengal Billy]

Obviously need to tackle better and do something about the rush defense. That's a given. Not expecting a top 5 defense out of this group, but needs to be better.

That said, IMO they did "okay" in the NE game except for the most crucial times (the end of the 1st half and end of the game). Those two were killers.

- Hudson fumbles at the 2. Defense has had some rest (Bengals O had a sustained drive before the fumble). Defense comes on the field and within 3 plays the Pats are in Bengals territory; then the defense allows them to run out the clock and kick a FG to end the half. That was a complete fail by the entire team (10 point swing).

- End of the game needing a stop with 3 timeouts and the 2:00 warning,, couldn't get it done. Maybe they were gassed, maybe Zac saw they had played okay the 2nd half and though they would stop the Pats. But No. Complete fail.

2 killer moments by the Defense at crucial times (end of half, end of game).

[*bengalfan74*]

The defense wasn't stellar. But the defense wasn't why we lost that honor goes to the O and ZT. Horrible game plan. We lost because we were averaging like 3 yards per pass play. We lost because the RB's had a grand total of 12 carries. We lost because the Patriots had us by like 10 minutes in possession time because the O couldn't sustain drives. We lost because JB had a very shitty game.

Look at the O for the blame.

[Bengalfan4life27c]

Reading this thread confirmed what I thought when watching the game. Logan Wilson had a monster game if we get that Logan Wilson every week the defense will be just fine.

[casear2727]

Im pretty sure that J didnt start this thread to blame the defense for the loss.  Many keep stressing the defense didnt lose the game but that is not the point.  The defense didnt lose the game.  That said the defense is much more concerning to many of us because the offense has Burrow who will get it together, Chase who missed the preseason, and Tee who is hurt.  The oline is better.   TE has promise.  We have reasons to believe the offense will improve.

What evidence do we have that the defense isnt really bad vs the run?  Are we really banking on 2 rookies and Murphy coming off the IR to improve us significantly?  These are backups.  

We were horrendous vs the run last year and lost our top run stuffer.  We replaced him with a pass rusher (who has yet to rush the passer).  One of our best run stoppers, Hubbard, has possibly lost a step.  We signed a safety that has a history of missing tackles and that hasnt changed with a 40% missed tackle rate in his first game.

The defense is a major concern, more concerning than the offense in my opinion, the fact they didnt "lose this one game", isnt the issue.  They gave up 170 on the ground and could not make a stop with the game on the line.  Our offense would not need to get back to normal for us to be successful, they would need to be a high octane offense scoring tons of points to outscore other teams.  Im very doubtful we can average 30 points a game, and if the run defense remains this bad it will be impossible simply due to time of possession.

We have no idea what Lou can do to fix this, which is very worrisome.  If he does turn this D around, it would be his best coaching job in his career.

[XsandOs]

(09-14-2024, 11:43 AM)casear2727 Wrote: Im pretty sure that J didnt start this thread to blame the defense for the loss.  Many keep stressing the defense didnt lose the game but that is not the point.  The defense didnt lose the game.  That said the defense is much more concerning to many of us because the offense has Burrow who will get it together, Chase who missed the preseason, and Tee who is hurt.  The oline is better.   TE has promise.  We have reasons to believe the offense will improve.

What evidence do we have that the defense isnt really bad vs the run?  Are we really banking on 2 rookies and Murphy coming off the IR to improve us significantly?  These are backups.  

We were horrendous vs the run last year and lost our top run stuffer.  We replaced him with a pass rusher (who has yet to rush the passer).  One of our best run stoppers, Hubbard, has possibly lost a step.  We signed a safety that has a history of missing tackles and that hasnt changed with a 40% missed tackle rate in his first game.

The defense is a major concern, more concerning than the offense in my opinion, the fact they didnt "lose this one game", isnt the issue.  They gave up 170 on the ground and could not make a stop with the game on the line.  Our offense would not need to get back to normal for us to be successful, they would need to be a high octane offense scoring tons of points to outscore other teams.  Im very doubtful we can average 30 points a game, and if the run defense remains this bad it will be impossible simply due to time of possession.

We have no idea what Lou can do to fix this, which is very worrisome.  If he does turn this D around, it would be his best coaching job in his career.

Agreed. Defense was not the root cause of the loss last week; however, the issues on defense moving forward are significant. Also, when it mattered, our run D could not get a stop.

Additionally; injuries and run defense aside, I did not see any pass rush up the middle. I saw too much of Hendrickson looping around the LT and opening escape gaps for Brissett.  

[J24]

(09-14-2024, 11:43 AM)casear2727 Wrote: Im pretty sure that J didnt start this thread to blame the defense for the loss.  Many keep stressing the defense didnt lose the game but that is not the point.  The defense didnt lose the game.  That said the defense is much more concerning to many of us because the offense has Burrow who will get it together, Chase who missed the preseason, and Tee who is hurt.  The oline is better.   TE has promise.  We have reasons to believe the offense will improve.

What evidence do we have that the defense isnt really bad vs the run?  Are we really banking on 2 rookies and Murphy coming off the IR to improve us significantly?  These are backups.  

We were horrendous vs the run last year and lost our top run stuffer.  We replaced him with a pass rusher (who has yet to rush the passer).  One of our best run stoppers, Hubbard, has possibly lost a step.  We signed a safety that has a history of missing tackles and that hasnt changed with a 40% missed tackle rate in his first game.

The defense is a major concern, more concerning than the offense in my opinion, the fact they didnt "lose this one game", isnt the issue.  They gave up 170 on the ground and could not make a stop with the game on the line.  Our offense would not need to get back to normal for us to be successful, they would need to be a high octane offense scoring tons of points to outscore other teams.  Im very doubtful we can average 30 points a game, and if the run defense remains this bad it will be impossible simply due to time of possession.

We have no idea what Lou can do to fix this, which is very worrisome.  If he does turn this D around, it would be his best coaching job in his career.

Yep; also people keep bringing up "well they weren't the reason they lost the game" in thread but miss the fact that they were not good enough to win the game either. The Patriots are the worse offense in the NFL it's on the defense to dominate that matchup. 

[casear2727]

(09-14-2024, 09:25 PM)XsandOs Wrote: Agreed. Defense was not the root cause of the loss last week; however, the issues on defense moving forward are significant. Also, when it mattered, our run D could not get a stop.

Additionally; injuries and run defense aside, I did not see any pass rush up the middle. I saw too much of Hendrickson looping around the LT and opening escape gaps for Brissett.  

Rankins needs to show up, if he couldnt do it vs the Pats, I have little faith vs KC as they have a much more formidable IOL.

Hubbard played way too many snaps with Ossai only getting 3 pass rush opportunities. 

At a minimum, we have to not lose the line of scrimmage and tackle ball carriers; anyone pressuring Mahomes other than Trey would be a huge impact in keeping this game close. 

[RegularGuy22]

Casear, at times your posts are depressing because they are facts and true and makes things look almost too difficult to correct.

[*Go Cards*]

(09-14-2024, 11:16 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: The defense wasn't stellar. But the defense wasn't why we lost that honor goes to the O and ZT. Horrible game plan. We lost because we were averaging like 3 yards per pass play. We lost because the RB's had a grand total of 12 carries. We lost because the Patriots had us by like 10 minutes in possession time because the O couldn't sustain drives. We lost because JB had a very shitty game.

Look at the O for the blame.

Agree 100%, especially the JB had a shitty game part. 

The coaches have to shoulder a lot of this blame though. The slow starts have become a pattern under Zac and it has to stop. Putting the team behind the eight ball right out of the gate annually is too taxing in a long season.

[casear2727]

(09-14-2024, 10:23 PM)RegularGuy22 Wrote: Casear, at times your posts are depressing because they are facts and true and makes things look almost too difficult to correct.

It's the NFL, we always have a chance.  Once Burrow gets his head out of his ass he may be able to outplay our defensive deficiencies.