Building the trenches

[Bengalbug]

So, I did some research today. No team in the NFL has more salary cap dollars allocated to their offensive and defensive lines in the NFL.

In 2024, the bengals have allocated (in salary cap) $60,000,000 on DL (2nd highest) and $44,000,000 on OL (9th highest).

The offensive line played better, but is this a top 10 unit? I don’t even want to ask such a rhetorical question on the DL side.

I know that “salary cap” is only one way to look at team spend, but that’s getting to my point.

1) structuring (or lack of restructuring) of deals. (FO)
2) missing on draft picks (FO/Coaching)
3) bad fits in FA (FO/Coaching)
4) lack of development (coaching)

—————————-

This team is living in 2021 and 2022… thinking it’s the same roster and “just an OL away). The bengals have been so hell bent on fixing the OL and getting a better pass rush, it has come at the expense of almost every position group.

Impact players have left, culture guys have left, we’ve held on to aging veterans.
————-

Final thought. Something isn’t working. I do think the bengals have good players, but there is a miss here. Part of it is front office, the other part is coaching. Something has to give soon, this might get real ugly real fast, and I’m not talking from a record standpoint. The fallout will come. I think Lou’s seat has to be HOT. Maybe it’s the DL coach, much like Frank gets the blame?

Sorry for the rant.

[Sled21]

(09-25-2024, 02:13 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: So, I did some research today. No team in the NFL has more salary cap dollars allocated to their offensive and defensive lines in the NFL.

In 2024, the bengals have allocated (in salary cap) $60,000,000 on DL (2nd highest) and $44,000,000 on OL (9th highest).  

The offensive line played better, but is this a top 10 unit?  I don’t even want to ask such a rhetorical question on the DL side.  

I know that “salary cap” is only one way to look at team spend, but that’s getting to my point.  

1) structuring (or lack of restructuring) of deals. (FO)
2) missing on draft picks (FO/Coaching)
3) bad fits in FA (FO/Coaching)
4) lack of development (coaching)

—————————-

This team is living in 2021 and 2022… thinking it’s the same roster and “just an OL away).  The bengals have been so hell bent on fixing the OL and getting a better pass rush, it has come at the expense of almost every position group.  

Impact players have left, culture guys have left, we’ve held on to aging veterans.  
————-

Final thought.  Something isn’t working.  I do think the bengals have good players, but there is a miss here. Part of it is front office, the other part is coaching.  Something has to give soon, this might get real ugly real fast, and I’m not talking from a record standpoint.  The fallout will come.  I think Lou’s seat has to be HOT.  Maybe it’s the DL coach, much like Frank gets the blame?  

Sorry for the rant.

It's almost like we are down 5 Defensive Tackles all at once....

[*Synric*]

(09-25-2024, 08:14 AM)Sled21 Wrote: It's almost like we are down 5 Defensive Tackles all at once....

Even the Bengals DT starters struggled when playing especially against the run.

[Whatever]

(09-25-2024, 02:13 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: So, I did some research today. No team in the NFL has more salary cap dollars allocated to their offensive and defensive lines in the NFL.

In 2024, the bengals have allocated (in salary cap) $60,000,000 on DL (2nd highest) and $44,000,000 on OL (9th highest).  

The offensive line played better, but is this a top 10 unit?  I don’t even want to ask such a rhetorical question on the DL side.  

I know that “salary cap” is only one way to look at team spend, but that’s getting to my point.  

1) structuring (or lack of restructuring) of deals. (FO)
2) missing on draft picks (FO/Coaching)
3) bad fits in FA (FO/Coaching)
4) lack of development (coaching)

—————————-

This team is living in 2021 and 2022… thinking it’s the same roster and “just an OL away).  The bengals have been so hell bent on fixing the OL and getting a better pass rush, it has come at the expense of almost every position group.  

Impact players have left, culture guys have left, we’ve held on to aging veterans.  
————-

Final thought.  Something isn’t working.  I do think the bengals have good players, but there is a miss here. Part of it is front office, the other part is coaching.  Something has to give soon, this might get real ugly real fast, and I’m not talking from a record standpoint.  The fallout will come.  I think Lou’s seat has to be HOT.  Maybe it’s the DL coach, much like Frank gets the blame?  

Sorry for the rant.

There is actually some basis for the OL being Top 10.  Per Pro football Reference, Joe is only seeing pressure on 10.3% of his drop backs, 2nd least in the league.  Though this is a small sample size, if it continues, that will completely blow up the "build the OL and Joe will make no name receivers look good" theory.  

DL is mix of bad investments and terrible draft/development.

[Bengalbug]

(09-25-2024, 08:14 AM)Sled21 Wrote: It's almost like we are down 5 Defensive Tackles all at once....

You’re kidding yourself if you think a healthy BJ hill and Sheldon rankins make this a top 2 DL. Between them and Hubbard/Hendrickson, they represent 80% of the DL cap dollars for DL… again second highest in the NFL.

[Bengalbug]

(09-25-2024, 09:56 AM)Whatever Wrote: There is actually some basis for the OL being Top 10.  Per Pro football Reference, Joe is only seeing pressure on 10.3% of his drop backs, 2nd least in the league.  Though this is a small sample size, if it continues, that will completely blow up the "build the OL and Joe will make no name receivers look good" theory.  

DL is mix of bad investments and terrible draft/development.

Yes, I stopped short of bashing the OL too much. It’s questionable. Hopefully the run game continues to open up and Joe can stay upright. Mims had a few bad plays, to be expected. I just really want a draft pick (outside of burrow/chase), to develop into a slam dunk, franchise changing pick. I hope Mims can be that guy (Whitworth/Anderson esque)

[*Synric*]

(09-25-2024, 09:56 AM)Whatever Wrote: There is actually some basis for the OL being Top 10.  Per Pro football Reference, Joe is only seeing pressure on 10.3% of his drop backs, 2nd least in the league.  Though this is a small sample size, if it continues, that will completely blow up the "build the OL and Joe will make no name receivers look good" theory.  

DL is mix of bad investments and terrible draft/development.

I wouldn't say they have made bad investments on the DL. Trey BJ Reader Larry O and even Hubbard were solid investments it's more they are losing guys, guys getting older, and have no depth to create a rotation. 

[SunsetBengal]

(09-25-2024, 10:10 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: You’re kidding yourself if you think a healthy BJ hill and Sheldon rankins make this a top 2 DL.  Between them and Hubbard, they represent 80% of the DL cap dollars for DL… again second highest in the NFL.

He didn't say that, you did.. Anyway, we all knew that the Bengals were crazy for allowing DJ Reader to walk without having a viable run stuffer to fill that spot on the roster. By the time the Bengals got around to doing anything about the interior DL, the NT supply had run out. They panicked and signed Rankins, whose not a NT, but built his name as a pass rushing 3T. Obviously nobody expected both Hill and Rankins to go down in the same game, that early in the season.

Since the Bengals were unable to solve their issues in free agency, they did the Bengal move and rolled the dice in the draft. They picked a fine pair of prospects in Jenkins and Jackson, but they're injured too and honestly shouldn't have been expected to produce much as rookies, anyway.

The Bengals business decisions blew this one, completely. They had an idea when Reader went down for the season that they likely weren't going to re-sign him. They slept on the position for most of free agency, they blew their chances to secure a plug and play guy who actually fit the need to fill.

[Whatever]

(09-25-2024, 10:16 AM)Synric Wrote: I wouldn't say they have made bad investments on the DL. Trey BJ Reader Larry O and even Hubbard were solid investments it's more they are losing guys, guys getting older, and have no depth to create a rotation. 

Trey was a great investment.  But he's one guy.  

BJ has been an average starter.  At $10 mil per, I think it's reasonable to expect a bit more.  Not terrible, not good, either.

Larry was great for his year here.  Unfortunately, kinda feels like we extended the wrong 3 tech.

Hubbard is in the 3rd year of a 4 deal and we've only gotten one good year out of him since ponying up.  Terrible investment.  

Reader I'm torn on.  Good when he played, but missed a lot of games.  

Combine that with terrible drafting and development, and you"be got what we have.

[phil413]

We're saying the same but things are never really going to "look" right since fielding a pathetic OL cost us a SB. They don't get a consistent push in the run game (Cappa was supposed to help change that) and we're holding out breath at RT. Brown Jr. is the only thing close to a star.

The DL issue has been injures, Hubbard isn't the same player that was a huge part of a plan that worked vs Mahomes. It was a risk signing Reader and him not being healthy but we're banking on quality UT types, one being a rookie and no true NT. We're back to Trey being the DL currently.

It's the biggest indictment on the FO. If you won't pay the WRs and believe in building through the trenches, you aren't doing that right so I don't trust you to do the building.

[*Synric*]

(09-25-2024, 10:30 AM)Whatever Wrote: Trey was a great investment.  But he's one guy.  

BJ has been an average starter.  At $10 mil per, I think it's reasonable to expect a bit more.  Not terrible, not good, either.

Larry was great for his year here.  Unfortunately, kinda feels like we extended the wrong 3 tech.

Hubbard is in the 3rd year of a 4 deal and we've only gotten one good year out of him since ponying up.  Terrible investment.  

Reader I'm torn on.  Good when he played, but missed a lot of games.  

Combine that with terrible drafting and development, and you"be got what we have.

Hubbard has been a good contributor but we knew he wasn't a high end pass rusher and needed to be in a rotation. They just never found that 3rd rotational edge defender in what 4 years? 

The biggest issue has been no rotation and guys walking without replacements (Ogunjobi, Reader). They have just sucked so very bad drafting trenches. 

[*Synric*]

Side note: The Browns in 2023 went out and paid for a DL like the Bengals did in 2020/21 but so far have been kinda bad drafting DL. Will be interesting to see in a year or so as those contracts and players age.

Steelers though just continue to add good DL and everybody wonders how they haven't had a losing season. 

[Lucius Cincinnatus]

(09-25-2024, 08:14 AM)Sled21 Wrote: It's almost like we are down 5 Defensive Tackles all at once....

We were without Rankins, Hill, and Mckinley. Who are the other 2 mystery DTs that we are without? How did Rankins and Hill do stopping the run in their first two games? 

[Nicomo Cosca]

(09-25-2024, 10:13 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: Yes, I stopped short of bashing the OL too much. It’s questionable. Hopefully the run game continues to open up and Joe can stay upright. Mims had a few bad plays, to be expected. I just really want a draft pick (outside of burrow/chase), to develop into a slam dunk, franchise changing pick. I hope Mims can be that guy (Whitworth/Anderson esque)

It’s been WAY too long since they drafted one of those on defense. Geno was 14 years ago.

[SunsetBengal]

(09-25-2024, 11:36 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: It’s been WAY too long since they drafted one of those on defense. Geno was 14 years ago.

If this season continues to trend in the direction it's heading, this could be the year for the Bengals to have their pick of the best defenders in the entire draft.

[WeezyBengal]

Hubbard and Hill are bad contracts. Hubbard is washed and Hill is overpaid.

Hill is not expendable because there are no other options, really. Hubbard needs to be cut this off-season. The Hubbard thing just really, really hurt the team this year.

[Bengalbug]

(09-25-2024, 11:37 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: If this season continues to trend in the direction it's heading, this could be the year for the Bengals to have their pick of the best defenders in the entire draft.

Why do the bengals have to have a top 5 pick to have a chance at landing a great player? Many organizations get production from day 2 and 3 picks. Is it just bad luck? Idk

[Bengalbug]

(09-25-2024, 11:39 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Hubbard and Hill are bad contracts. Hubbard is washed and Hill is overpaid.

Hill is not expendable because there are no other options, really. Hubbard needs to be cut this off-season. The Hubbard thing just really, really hurt the team this year.

Hubbard did hurt, but it’s not like his backups are any better. Had we hit on any DE in draft… while still overpaid, Hubbard wouldn’t be forced to play.

It’s like the bengals are paying above market prices at almost ALL DL positions. FA is meant to supplement the draft, but in the case of bengals trenches… it’s so backwards.

[Fan_in_Kettering]

Letting DJ Reader walk wasn’t smart.

[Bengalbug]

(09-25-2024, 12:21 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Letting DJ Reader walk wasn’t smart.

This is a systemic issue. It can’t be isolated to any one player, move, or decision.

If reader were here, the results wouldn’t be that much, if any, different. You’d still have a bad Hubbard, no DE depth, and injured/below average DTs. Reader doesn’t fix the tackling issues (which we have not gotten to).