How bad is the rest of the -dline at pass rushing?

[FormerlyBengalRugby]

We consider the inverse of this a lot when bringing in a pass rusher, but let's consider both sides.

Is the rest of the d-line so terrible, yet Hendrickson can amass all of these sacks, he is well worth any extension given.

If the [pass rush improves anywhere on the line, or from additional pressure, the defense should improve immensely. Added pressure from the middle, other end, or Viper position will only make the QB pressure better.

No draft yet, but optimistic on this year's defense.

[Luvnit2]

(Yesterday, 10:11 PM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: We consider the inverse of this a lot when bringing in a pass rusher, but let's consider both sides.

Is the rest of the d-line so terrible, yet Hendrickson can amass all of these sacks, he is well worth any extension given.

If the [pass rush improves anywhere on the line, or from additional pressure, the defense should improve immensely. Added pressure from the middle, other end, or Viper position will only make the QB pressure better.

No draft yet, but optimistic on this year's defense.

Yes Trey could have 4 or 5 less sacks because others may get them. We could be a better pass defense if we can get some better push up the middle and if our LDE rotation can get 8 to 10 sacks.

I don't see us prioritizing a DT since we drafted 2 last year and signed 2 FA's this year in Hill and Slayton. The more I think about it, I can see tound one beig. safety and round 2 being. guard or OT capable of playing guard.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

Well, Trey could also have more sacks if the ithers were better.

ESPN has a "sacks created" metric. Hendrickson led the league with 26, IIRC. I don't think anyone else was over 20.

But of the 17.5 he got, precious few were created (defined as the first pressure resulting in a sack) by someone else. He got almost all of his on his own. I cannot recall the exact numbers now.

It is kinda the opposite of an offensive guy putting up more numbers because another guy is out & he gets more touches.

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

FWIW, here is the other side of the coin:

https://charlieschalkboard.substack.com/p/what-trey-hendrickson-is-and-what

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

Trey leads all pass rushers in high impact negative plays since 2021 with 203.

https://www.espn.com.au/nfl/story/_/id/43439661/nfl-bengals-trey-hendrickson-sacks-contract

[BFritz21]

That's why we need to draft Walter Nolen out of Ol' Miss and let him create pass rush from the tackle position!

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

I don't have access to fancy stats like quick pressure rate, pressure rate, & pass rush win rate.

No other player had more than 14.5 to Trey's 26 on sacks created. Sacks created counts the sacks the player created for themselves and their teammates.

We had 36 sacks on the season. Trey created 26 of them. Everyone else combined created 10.

PFF:
Player, Pos, Pass Rush grade, Rank, # snaps, Pressures: Sck/hit/hurr
Hendrickson, DE, 90.4, 5/211, 514; 83: 18/16/49
Ossai, DE, 58.0, 121/211, 349; 31: 5/10/16
Murphy, DE, 56.6, 134/211, 215; 20: 0/3/17
C. Johnson, DE, 63.9, 87/211, 55, 5: 1/2/2
---------------
BJ Hill, DT, 64.2, 67/219, 430; 32: 3/4/25
Slaton, NT, 57.6, 124/219, 208; 13: 1/2/10
Jenkins, DT, 53.5, 179/219, 260; 11: 3/2/6
Jackson, NT, 51.2, 200/219, 133; 7: 1/0/6

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(Yesterday, 11:35 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: That's why we need to draft Walter Nolen out of Ol' Miss and let him create pass rush from the tackle position!

Harmon or Grant would be fine as well. Alexander if he lasts till Rd2. After that, it gets slim. Farmer maybe in Rd3. There are more run stuff types than pressure guys. At some point, I shoft and try to land Campbell.

[FormerlyBengalRugby]

(Yesterday, 11:57 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: I don't have access to fancy stats like quick pressure rate, pressure rate, & pass rush win rate.

No other player had more than 14.5 to Trey's 26 on sacks created. Sacks created counts the sacks the player created for themselves and their teammates.

We had 36 sacks on the season. Trey created 26 of them. Everyone else combined created 10.

PFF:
Player, Pos, Pass Rush grade, Rank, # snaps, Pressures: Sck/hit/hurr
Hendrickson, DE, 90.4, 5/211, 514; 83: 18/16/49
Ossai, DE, 58.0, 121/211, 349; 31: 5/10/16
Murphy, DE, 56.6, 134/211, 215; 20: 0/3/17
C. Johnson, DE, 63.9, 87/211, 55, 5: 1/2/2
---------------
BJ Hill, DT, 64.2, 67/219, 430; 32: 3/4/25
Slaton, NT, 57.6, 124/219, 208; 13: 1/2/10
Jenkins, DT, 53.5, 179/219, 260; 11: 3/2/6
Jackson, NT, 51.2, 200/219, 133; 7: 1/0/6

Neither do I, and kind of my point.

If he is getting this pressure and sacks with no help, then Golden's defense is going to shine using him.

Great find in the numbers!

[BengalsBong]

(Yesterday, 10:11 PM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: We consider the inverse of this a lot when bringing in a pass rusher, but let's consider both sides.

Is the rest of the d-line so terrible, yet Hendrickson can amass all of these sacks, he is well worth any extension given.

If the [pass rush improves anywhere on the line, or from additional pressure, the defense should improve immensely. Added pressure from the middle, other end, or Viper position will only make the QB pressure better.

No draft yet, but optimistic on this year's defense.

I see the defense scheme change making the biggest impact over adding any certain player.

Our guys were confused and put in bad position last year in the secondary, so they had guys open to throw to.

If we cover better, we have more time to get to the QB.

If Golden puts players in the right spots on the field and uses them correctly then the defense will improve.

Now the tackling issue on defense needs improved greatly team wide.

[NUGDUKWE]

(Yesterday, 11:35 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: That's why we need to draft Walter Nolen out of Ol' Miss and let him create pass rush from the tackle position!

I like Walter Nolan. I think our FA DTs and our lack of any other position in FA have taken him completely off our board. Need a 1st RD starter not a guy getting a handful of snaps.

[*Synric*]

There is not Defensive Tackle or Defensive End (including Trey) on the roster that takes Defensive Line (either position) off the board in round one. DL happens to be the deepest group in round one.

Defensive Line is also the 3rd most expensive position group which raises the likelihood of the Bengals taking those positions high to off-set the cost of their WRs/QB.

[XenoMorph]

good news is it appears to be a deep DL draft class

[WeezyBengal]

(Today, 07:25 AM)Synric Wrote: There is not Defensive Tackle or Defensive End (including Trey) on the roster that takes Defensive Line (either position) off the board in round one. DL happens to be the deepest group in round one.

Defensive Line is also the 3rd most expensive position group which raises the likelihood of the Bengals taking those positions high to off-set the cost of their WRs/QB.

I agree. DL needs to be the pick in round one. 

The problem is is that they've gone so heavy on DL the past couple years in the draft. They've spent a first round pick, second, a third, and a sixth the past two years. 

Between that, and the picks at WR (Yoshi, Charlie Jones, Burton) its been a masterclass on how to **** up team building. 

[Isaac Curtis: The Real #85]

(Today, 06:59 AM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: I like Walter Nolan. I think our FA DTs and our lack of any other position in FA have taken him completely off our board. Need a 1st RD starter not a guy getting a handful of snaps.

Slaton & Hill are your starters.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

I think we have enough juice in terms of ability, but I truly think scheme affected things last year (and the prior year).

Our LBs became less effective once Golden left and we saw more bad habits come out of all of them, save for Logan, thus I think things just became stale, system/scheme-wise.

We will see in the PS and early in the year, if that was the problem area indeed.

[phil413]

(11 hours ago)WeezyBengal Wrote: I agree. DL needs to be the pick in round one. 

The problem is is that they've gone so heavy on DL the past couple years in the draft. They've spent a first round pick, second, a third, and a sixth the past two years. 

Between that, and the picks at WR (Yoshi, Charlie Jones, Burton) its been a masterclass on how to **** up team building. 

I agree with Synric's point, there isn't enough established talent outside of Trey to preclude a DL pick. They threw Ced O and Fisher at tackle but still needed to fix tackle.  The Lions didn't let their high WR picks block them from Megatron. 

A balanced DE is the ideal sweetspot.  They could always go with their old way of playing a bigger yet rush threat DE at UT on passing downs.  They also have to consider being more versatile with scheme fit to even take a EDGE/OLB type of needed to improve the pass rush yet still fit.  I'm OK with the rookie not getting the payoff of reps if these young backups earn their own reps.  

I get preferring a slightly lesser DE over a DT on paper, but take the talent.  Run a simulator and trade down once in the 1st. Then consider how you feel about BPA being DT knowing you can still go DE, BPA and Guard with any combo of say the next 4 picks.  They have to get this right, and I'm not opposed to DT if they're truly BPA at the pick. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(Yesterday, 10:11 PM)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: We consider the inverse of this a lot when bringing in a pass rusher, but let's consider both sides.

Is the rest of the d-line so terrible, yet Hendrickson can amass all of these sacks, he is well worth any extension given.

If the [pass rush improves anywhere on the line, or from additional pressure, the defense should improve immensely. Added pressure from the middle, other end, or Viper position will only make the QB pressure better.

No draft yet, but optimistic on this year's defense.

No doubt. Any improvement from everyone besides Trey and we could have a much better Defense this year especially if we just tackle
better. I like the youth in Kris Jenkins, McKinnley Jackson (who surprised me with his pressures as a rookie) and Cedric Johnson who has 
a great motor. Bringing back Ossai was a good move as he was our second best pass rusher behind Trey last year.

I think Murphy is probably very disappointed with his production last year as he should be and works his ass off to get back his quicks
and then he can learn to finish. This Draft is very deep with pass rushers and I am expecting one early. The Viper position is the most 
intriguing thing to me now with Golden and Hodges here. Jalon Walker makes a lot of sense because of this.

[FormerlyBengalRugby]

(8 hours ago)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: No doubt. Any improvement from everyone besides Trey and we could have a much better Defense this year especially if we just tackle
better. I like the youth in Kris Jenkins, McKinnley Jackson (who surprised me with his pressures as a rookie) and Cedric Johnson who has 
a great motor. Bringing back Ossai was a good move as he was our second best pass rusher behind Trey last year.

I think Murphy is probably very disappointed with his production last year as he should be and works his ass off to get back his quicks
and then he can learn to finish. This Draft is very deep with pass rushers and I am expecting one early. The Viper position is the most 
intriguing thing to me now with Golden and Hodges here. Jalon Walker makes a lot of sense because of this.

Yeah, I think any improvement in the d-line will be a massive benefit to the defense.

I know people are talking about Walker in the first for the Viper role, but I have a few other considerations.

Trade back, 25ish, for Jihaad Campbell, Alabama. 4.52 forty, rangy, can cover and collapse the pocket.

Round two for Harold Perkins, Jr, LSU. Super fast with a 4.3 forty time, 13  sacks and 7 forced fumbles over two years, but and ACL injury and his smaller size, 6'1" 220 makes his available in the second, and a favorite of mine due to the value.

Round two, maybe early in the third is Danny Stutsman, Oklahoma. Rangy and lives in the backfield (16 TFL in 2023) with 4.52 forty time as well.

Round 3, 4, or 5, Barrett Carter, Clemson. Smalish as well (5'11" 230) by has good burst as a blitzer (3.5 sacks last year) and has good agility in space, but really is not a thre down linebacker, so kind of the dark horse.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(6 hours ago)FormerlyBengalRugby Wrote: Yeah, I think any improvement in the d-line will be a massive benefit to the defense.

I know people are talking about Walker in the first for the Viper role, but I have a few other considerations.

Trade back, 25ish, for Jihaad Campbell, Alabama. 4.52 forty, rangy, can cover and collapse the pocket.

Round two for Harold Perkins, Jr, LSU. Super fast with a 4.3 forty time, 13  sacks and 7 forced fumbles over two years, but and ACL injury and his smaller size, 6'1" 220 makes his available in the second, and a favorite of mine due to the value.

Round two, maybe early in the third is Danny Stutsman, Oklahoma. Rangy and lives in the backfield (16 TFL in 2023) with 4.52 forty time as well.

Round 3, 4, or 5, Barrett Carter, Clemson. Smalish as well (5'11" 230) by has good burst as a blitzer (3.5 sacks last year) and has good agility in space, but really is not a thre down linebacker, so kind of the dark horse.

Nice post Rugby.

Love the thought of trading back and adding Jihad and another pick. Great player that is like 3 positions in one with his skillset. I know he 
won't play immediately with the shoulder injury, but he could be a star down the road. I like your thoughts on Perkins, he could be the Viper
and Stutsman was a stud on Oklahoma every time I watched him. Think I remember Carter from Clemson as well. 

We certainly can find a Viper outside of the first round. We didn't meet with Jalon Walker or Jihad Campbell. I don't know if this means 
anything or not...