Bengals reportedly "making push" to keep Vincent Rey

[fredtoast]

(02-18-2016, 06:22 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Again typical fred, trying to be smarter than everyone and ends up looking worse for the most part. 

Never said behind the LOS.
Just said not after 5+ yard gains, you know, setting up long 2nd and 3rd downs or stopping offenses on third downs. 

Which do you value more, the guy who ends a play in 3 downs or the guy who makes 5 tackles on a drive but they move the ball more? 

If I was the one who looked stupid then why did you change the question.


Now prove that this question is relevant to Vinny and I will answer it.  Because for years I heard people make the same claims about Justin Smith and it was total BS.

I believe that number you are looking for is something like the "stop rate" that FootballOutsiders calculates.  In 2013 Vinny rankee very high with 63% (28th among LBs) but in 2014 he was much worse (42% which ranked 94th).   Anyone out there have access to his stop rate for 2015?

[*bfine32*]

(02-18-2016, 04:06 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Tackles are a lame stat.


Here are the top 10 tacklers from last season. (notice they all play for bad teams.)

NaVorro Bowman - SF (5-11)
D'Qwell Jackson - IND (8-8)
Lavonte David - TB (6-10)
Reshad Jones - Mia (6-10)
Paul Posluszny - Jax (5-11)
Sean Lee - Dal (4-12)
Telvin Smith - Jax (5-11)
Corey Graham - Buf (8-8)
Malcolm Smith - Oak (7-9)
Daryl Smith - Balt (5-11)

If you are using that list of LBs to demonstrate tackles are an over-rated stat, you might have failed. 

[NATI BENGALS]

(02-18-2016, 03:30 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: You are completely missing the point.
This is like talking to a child. 

If a guy gets a lot of tackle stats but they occur downfield because he doesn't make a play sooner, is that as valuable as a guy who gets fewer tackle stats but makes tackles that stop drives thus getting fewer chances.

There are 11 guys on the field. He isnt the only one tasked with stopping the play. If he makes the tackle at a high rate that means he does a good job of knowing what is going on and making a good read and being in position to do what a defender is supposed to. 

The guys regarded as the best LBs in the league rack up high tackle numbers. Because of pursuit effort and instinct.

Vrey aint one of the best in the league but he would be a nice piece to have back at a reasonable price. Hopefully we cut AJ Hawk and give that paycheck to Vrey.

[Stormborn]

Let's focus on what's important here.

Vinny Rey is not worth 5 mill a year in any reality. He's so embarrassingly average as an athlete, he's not a playmaker, he brings zero value other than making plays in front of him. He's not a starter you can rely on.

There's nothing wrong keeping him as an emergency reserve, but he's "overachieved" and deserves no where near 15 mill.

This would be a huge waste of cap room we need.

[GreenCornBengal]

(02-18-2016, 08:32 PM)bfine32 Wrote: If you are using that list of LBs to demonstrate tackles are an over-rated stat, you might have failed. 

Give me another attempt to show you tackles are an over-rated stat. Dre Kirkpatrick had 65 tackles last season, V. Rey had 63.

Sure sure, different positions, blah blah blah.

Why do guys throw at Kirkpatrick? Because he is beatable, that's why he has so many tackles.
Why do guys throw at V. Rey? Because he is beatable, that's why he has so many tackles.

[J24]

(02-18-2016, 10:20 PM)Stormborn Wrote: Let's focus on what's important here.

Vinny Rey is not worth 5 mill a year in any reality. He's so embarrassingly average as an athlete, he's not a playmaker, he brings zero value other than making plays in front of him. He's not a starter you can rely on.

There's nothing wrong keeping him as an emergency reserve, but he's "overachieved" and deserves no where near 15 mill.

This would be a huge waste of cap room we need.

Could not have said it better.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(02-18-2016, 10:20 PM)Stormborn Wrote: Let's focus on what's important here.

Vinny Rey is not worth 5 mill a year in any reality. He's so embarrassingly average as an athlete, he's not a playmaker, he brings zero value other than making plays in front of him. He's not a starter you can rely on.

There's nothing wrong keeping him as an emergency reserve, but he's "overachieved" and deserves no where near 15 mill.

This would be a huge waste of cap room we need.

Yup.  Vinny is a pretty smart guy.....and that surely masks some of his physical limitations. However.....inevitable Father Time will strip those masks sooner or later....keep him at a good rate.

[Bengal Dude]

(02-18-2016, 10:20 PM)Stormborn Wrote: Let's focus on what's important here.

Vinny Rey is not worth 5 mill a year in any reality. He's so embarrassingly average as an athlete, he's not a playmaker, he brings zero value other than making plays in front of him. He's not a starter you can rely on.

There's nothing wrong keeping him as an emergency reserve, but he's "overachieved" and deserves no where near 15 mill.

This would be a huge waste of cap room we need.

That's the big issue. He's not the worst, but he's nowhere near the best. If they want to keep him around as depth and STs, that's fine. It's the fact that they're willing to pay starter money to him. So we're either going to overpay for a backup player or we plan on inserting him into the starting lineup.

[Stormborn]

(02-19-2016, 05:10 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: That's the big issue. He's not the worst, but he's nowhere near the best. If they want to keep him around as depth and STs, that's fine. It's the fact that they're willing to pay starter money to him. So we're either going to overpay for a backup player or we plan on inserting him into the starting lineup.

Both scenario's are equally horrifying. 

[phil413]

(02-19-2016, 05:10 PM)Bengal Dude Wrote: That's the big issue. He's not the worst, but he's nowhere near the best. If they want to keep him around as depth and STs, that's fine. It's the fact that they're willing to pay starter money to him. So we're either going to overpay for a backup player or we plan on inserting him into the starting lineup.

I think a lot of us have a similar stance.  Ideally, he's a super sub but not for starter money.  Even with the cap going up, a 4th LB shouldn't be paid 5M/yr.  Somewhere between his value in the nickle/ST/versatility and the going rates for similar LB's things get murky, as is the board's opinion of Dawson.  I liked him in college, but that doesn't mean I hand him the keys to Vinny's role last year.  I'd like to see him back, fine with seeing him (or Dawson or a rookie if the earn it) starting the first 3 games but he isn't irreplaceable if someone else actually pays him.  Cincy should offer 11M/3yr and if he won't sign for 12 then so be it.  I get that deals are all about guaranteed money, but we as fans are still speaking the per year language as I don't think anyone is mentioning guaranteed money in rumors anymore.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(02-20-2016, 03:09 AM)phil413 Wrote: I think a lot of us have a similar stance.  Ideally, he's a super sub but not for starter money.  Even with the cap going up, a 4th LB shouldn't be paid 5M/yr.  Somewhere between his value in the nickle/ST/versatility and the going rates for similar LB's things get murky, as is the board's opinion of Dawson.  I liked him in college, but that doesn't mean I hand him the keys to Vinny's role last year.  I'd like to see him back, fine with seeing him (or Dawson or a rookie if the earn it) starting the first 3 games but he isn't irreplaceable if someone else actually pays him.  Cincy should offer 11M/3yr and if he won't sign for 12 then so be it.  I get that deals are all about guaranteed money, but we as fans are still speaking the per year language as I don't think anyone is mentioning guaranteed money in rumors anymore.

Vincent Rey is the Chris Heisey of the Bengals. Lol...

Great backup for all the spots, can give you a big play off the bench, but overall an exceedingly mediocre talent who just gets the best out of what he has. Can't justify spending more than backup money on him though, no matter how much you might like him.

[phil413]

(02-20-2016, 03:26 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Vincent Rey is the Chris Heisey of the Bengals. Lol...

Great backup for all the spots, can give you a big play off the bench, but overall an exceedingly mediocre talent who just gets the best out of what he has. Can't justify spending more than backup money on him though, no matter how much you might like him.

Heisey is a good comparison.  I'll stand by the 3yr/11M total number factoring in the Bengals value continuity, his versatility and all the other stuff mentioned.  Two factors blur the lines as to what we value now adays though.  With the cap going up, everyone is going to feel entitled to a bit more.  A 3 million dollar player may be worth 3.3-3.5.  The other factor is what a starter is now adays.  You made a great case for Laurinaitis in the other thread using snap counts.  We debate what a tackle means in this thread, but I don't see enough of his actual role in this thread.  Sure he's good insurance, though he gets pushed around at MLB yet his smart enough to play the role.  The question is to Cincy though, who is he.  They liked Gilberry as a super sub on the DL, but he became the default starter when MJ bolted and they didn't progress a youngster there.  So beyond being this 4th guy, we gotta remember that they actually like him enough to give him reps as a nickle LB which blurs the line along with nickle corner and SLB as a "starter".  So for me, it's not so black and white as you present it.  I don't have hard numbers for what a backup and a starter are paid.  To me, he plays enough reps well enough and is trustworthy enough to warrant 3.33-3.67M/yr given the increase and factors above.  If I'm overpaying, so be it but I"m not handing him a 5M/yr deal as the rumor and thread suggests.  

[Essex Johnson]

(02-18-2016, 06:25 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: Good thing they'd have 6 months to figure it out and not overnight. 

And Rey has figured out all the complexity of our defense now.. so why wait 6 months for someone else to figure out maybe one position...

[OrlandoBengal]

(02-18-2016, 06:09 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: tell that one to Chad Johnson.. could not learn the NE system is what was heard around the league.  Understanding a system is very important and it does not happen always over nite.  I think most teams like to retain players that add value to their team in house.. Rey does that and the Bengals would be correct to retain him... for a fair market price.  The problem is some on here act like he is Terrible and we should pay him nothing.. that is the problem.

Chad was not exactly known as a braniac, so you might want to come up with another example.  If someone can't learn the playbook between now and the start of the season, then they don't deserve to be on an NFL roster.  Part of "adding value" is having a salary that is commiserate with your abilities.  A limited, backup linebacker is not worth $5 million per year.

[Essex Johnson]

Actually Rey is a starter not a backup.. he probably played more total downs than any other LB player this season and last season so to put him in a "backup linebacker" status is just incorrect.   One article just last year listed him in top 10 outside backers so I again I would argue no way is he a backup.  I am not sure if he is worth 5 million but I see a few other LBs out there that are getting 5 million that probably do not have the same productivity numbers and versatility numbers as Rey.  My argument in this thread is not the debate about 5 million but those that try to act like Rey is a backup and not worth up to 3 million a year.. there just is very little to back that type of thinking up.

Here are links that help support my opinion of Rey

http://espn.go.com/blog/cincinnati-bengals/post/_/id/15091/bengals-vincent-rey-vontaze-burfict-important-year-backup-linebacker

http://athlonsports.com/nfl/2015-nfl-player-rankings-linebackers