Is it time to move on from Dalton

[Shake n Blake]

[quote pid='195294' dateline='1458430868']

You are correct about that sir, however Mr. Dalton has been unquestionably horrible in such games and as the QB he catches most of the heat, that's just how it goes.
[/quote]

Meh. Four QBs have started a playoff game for Marvin Lewis. Which ones weren't "horrible"?

(03-19-2016, 10:34 PM)BengalRed Wrote: Let's remember that there was a cold rain that night. That makes it tough for any QB. Yes AJ fumble three times but only lost one. And he hit AJ Green with a 25 yard TD when the game was on the line.

1. How many fumbles did Ben have in the same conditions? There is no proper excuse for 3 fumbles. That's almost a season's worth for Dalton. Btw, even though we recovered the other 2 fumbles, they still cost us a down and caused those drives to stall.

2. If our D had allowed say...27 points, that 25 yard pass would've been meaningless and no one would be talking about how Mac was (almost) a hero.

3. One pass doesn't negate 3.5 quarters of abysmal play by McCarron. Heck, Dalton has had quite a few good passes in the playoffs. The difference is that Dalton usually didn't have any realistic chance of winning by the 4th quarter. 

[jfkbengals]

(03-20-2016, 11:23 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: [quote pid='195294' dateline='1458430868']

You are correct about that sir, however Mr. Dalton has been unquestionably horrible in such games and as the QB he catches most of the heat, that's just how it goes.

Meh. Four QBs have started a playoff game for Marvin Lewis. Which ones weren't "horrible"?


1. How many fumbles did Ben have in the same conditions? There is no proper excuse for 3 fumbles. That's almost a season's worth for Dalton.

2. If our D had allowed say...27 points, that 25 yard pass would've been meaningless and no one would be talking about how Mac was (almost) a hero.

3. One pass doesn't negate 3.5 quarters of abysmal play by McCarron. Heck, Dalton has had quite a few good passes in the playoffs. The difference is that Dalton usually didn't have any realistic chance of winning by the 4th quarter. 
[/quote]


Only 3.  Carson, Andy, and AJ.  Kitna came in after Carson went down.

Replace with "that 25 yard play action pass that was set up by Hill and the oline imposing their will"

[fredtoast]

What the hell is going on with the quote function in this thread?

['E']

(03-20-2016, 11:23 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 3. One pass doesn't negate 3.5 quarters of abysmal play by McCarron. Heck, Dalton has had quite a few good passes in the playoffs. The difference is that Dalton usually didn't have any realistic chance of winning by the 4th quarter. 

In Dalton's 4 playoff starts the Bengals have scored :

2011 - 10 pts
2012 - 13 pts
2013 - 10 pts
2014 - 10 pts

I would argue that the Bengals had a realistic chance to win in 2 of those games going into the fourth quarter....2012 down 16 - 10 after 3 quarters and 2013 down 17 - 10 after 3 quarters.

Andy's career playoff stats : 88 - 158 for 873 yds, 1 TD, 6 INT, good for a  57.8 rating and a 55.7 completion %.....Not nearly enough good passes to be found there.

[Brownshoe]

[quote pid='E' dateline='1458488575']

In Dalton's 4 playoff starts the Bengals have scored :

2011 - 10 pts
2012 - 13 pts
2013 - 10 pts
2014 - 10 pts

I would argue that the Bengals had a realistic chance to win in 2 of those games going into the fourth quarter....2012 down 16 - 10 after 3 quarters and 2013 down 17 - 10 after 3 quarters.

Andy's career playoff stats : 88 - 158 for 873 yds, 1 TD, 6 INT, good for a  57.8 rating and a 55.7 completion %.....Not nearly enough good passes to be found there.
[/quote]

He also didn't have anywhere near the weapons we had this year in those playoff games. The only year that was even comparable was 2013 when at least 14 points was left off of the board due to dropped passes and fumbles from his weapons. Plus the defense played even remotely close to what they against Pittsburgh. If they did then it would have made it much easier for Dalton to score points due to good field position by turnovers and stopping them early in their drives.

[fredtoast]

[quote pid='195504' dateline='1458488575']

In Dalton's 4 playoff starts the Bengals have scored :

2011 - 10 pts
2012 - 13 pts
2013 - 10 pts
2014 - 10 pts

I would argue that the Bengals had a realistic chance to win in 2 of those games going into the fourth quarter....2012 down 16 - 10 after 3 quarters and 2013 down 17 - 10 after 3 quarters.

Andy's career playoff stats : 88 - 158 for 873 yds, 1 TD, 6 INT, good for a  57.8 rating and a 55.7 completion %.....Not nearly enough good passes to be found there.
[/quote]



First of all, I know what is going on with the quote function.  it is having problems with the screen name 'E'.


Second of all I don't see ahuge difference in Dalton and Mccarron in the playoffs.  Two of Dalton's playoff games have been against top 3 pass defenses ('11 and '12) and in another one he had no healthy receivers.  McCarron played his one games against the 28th ranked pass defense with all his receiver healthy. Still the numbers are not that different.

Dalton...........218 yards yards per game, 58 rating
McCarron.......212 yards yards per game, 68 rating

[Shake n Blake]

(03-20-2016, 11:48 AM)jfkbengals Wrote: Only 3.  Carson, Andy, and AJ.  Kitna came in after Carson went down.

Thanks, I had no idea. 

Kitna threw 40+ times in that game, whether he "started" or not. The point is that 4 QBs have played and 4 QBs looked terrible.

I agree though that Hill and others played a bigger role than McCarron in scoring a whopping 16 points against that terrible Steelers D.

(03-20-2016, 01:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: First of all, I know what is going on with the quote function.  it is having problems with the screen name 'E'.



Second of all I don't see ahuge difference in Dalton and Mccarron in the playoffs.  Two of Dalton's playoff games have been against top 3 pass defenses ('11 and '12) and in another one he had no healthy receivers.  McCarron played his one games against the 28th ranked pass defense with all his receiver healthy. Still the numbers are not that different.

Dalton...........218 yards yards per game, 58 rating
McCarron.......212 yards yards per game, 68 rating

Yeah, no matter what I did with my post, it just wouldn't quote him properly.

And thanks for posting the stats, although I have little doubt it will do nothing to deter the Dalton hating Mac lovers.

If Dalton played the exact same game against the Steelers, the same people would be ripping him for 3 fumbles, the pick and the terrible passer rating. They'd be saying that his teammates carried him in the 4th and if he hadn't been so terrible for 3+ quarters, we would've won. He wasted a great effort by the defense.

[J24]

Seriously what could we get for him? It would have to be at least a couple first rounders right?

['E']

(03-20-2016, 01:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: First of all, I know what is going on with the quote function.  it is having problems with the screen name 'E'.


Second of all I don't see ahuge difference in Dalton and Mccarron in the playoffs.  Two of Dalton's playoff games have been against top 3 pass defenses ('11 and '12) and in another one he had no healthy receivers.  McCarron played his one games against the 28th ranked pass defense with all his receiver healthy. Still the numbers are not that different.

Dalton...........218 yards yards per game, 58 rating
McCarron.......212 yards yards per game, 68 rating

First let me copy and paste this from a previous post of mine which no one saw (or didn't want to see)...

"Here are Dalton's numbers against that lousy Steeler defense...


23-38 for 231 yds with 1 TD and 2 INT good for a 64.7 QB rating.

Led the bengals to 16 total points 13 of which came on drives that started on Pittsburghs side of the field (thank you defense and special teams)

I won't mention his 3-5 , 59 yard with 1 INT, 61.7 rating effort in thier next meeting , but that happened too......While I'm at it here are McCarron's cold off the bench numbers in relief of Andy in that game......

22-32 for 280 yds with 2 TD and 2 INT good for a 90.6 rating."


As you can see, fifth year QB Dalton was no better against that same 28th ranked pass defense than was the handful of career starts McCarron, who had to deal with the rain for much of that game.


Second, if you are going to use the weapons excuse, it's only fair that the rain and inexperience card be recognized as equally legit.

[jfkbengals]

[quote pid='195571' dateline='1458494772']

First let me copy and paste this from a previous post of mine which no one saw (or didn't want to see)...

"Here are Dalton's numbers against that lousy Steeler defense...


23-38 for 231 yds with 1 TD and 2 INT good for a 64.7 QB rating.

Led the bengals to 16 total points 13 of which came on drives that started on Pittsburghs side of the field (thank you defense and special teams)

I won't mention his 3-5 , 59 yard with 1 INT, 61.7 rating effort in thier next meeting , but that happened too......While I'm at it here are McCarron's cold off the bench numbers in relief of Andy in that game......

22-32 for 280 yds with 2 TD and 2 INT good for a 90.6 rating."


As you can see, fifth year QB Dalton was no better against that same 28th ranked pass defense than was the handful of career starts McCarron, who had to deal with the rain for much of that game.


Second, if you are going to use the weapons excuse, it's only fair that the rain and inexperience card be recognized as equally legit.
[/quote]

What does the first sentence say, the font is too small.

[fredtoast]

[quote pid='195571' dateline='1458494772']


I won't mention his 3-5 , 59 yard with 1 INT, 61.7 rating effort in thier next meeting , but that happened too.
[/quote]

Interesting that you chose to completely ignore McCarrons playoff game which also happened.

212 yards, 68.3 rating. 3 fumbles.

why wasn't that anywhere in your post?

[jfkbengals]

(03-20-2016, 02:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [quote pid='195571' dateline='1458494772']


I won't mention his 3-5 , 59 yard with 1 INT, 61.7 rating effort in thier next meeting , but that happened too.

Interesting that you chose to completely ignore McCarrons playoff game which also happened.

212 yards, 68.3 rating. 3 fumbles.

why wasn't that anywhere in your post?
[/quote]

Do you think he might mention that under Dalton we only got 3.4 yards per carry but Dalton led us to 4.6 yards per play, while McCarron had a running game averaging 3.8 yards per carry but only mustered 4.1 yards per play?

The big question is, what was their records playing the entire 60 minutes?

Andy, 1-0
AJ, 0-1

['E']

(03-20-2016, 02:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [quote pid='195571' dateline='1458494772']


I won't mention his 3-5 , 59 yard with 1 INT, 61.7 rating effort in thier next meeting , but that happened too.

Interesting that you chose to completely ignore McCarrons playoff game which also happened.

212 yards, 68.3 rating. 3 fumbles.

why wasn't that anywhere in your post?
[/quote]

Not ignoring that at all. The reason I didn't include those numbers in my post was because the previous poster included them in his post....And I quoted him, so why type them out again ?

[PDub80]

(03-20-2016, 01:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [quote pid='195504' dateline='1458488575']

In Dalton's 4 playoff starts the Bengals have scored :

2011 - 10 pts
2012 - 13 pts
2013 - 10 pts
2014 - 10 pts

I would argue that the Bengals had a realistic chance to win in 2 of those games going into the fourth quarter....2012 down 16 - 10 after 3 quarters and 2013 down 17 - 10 after 3 quarters.

Andy's career playoff stats : 88 - 158 for 873 yds, 1 TD, 6 INT, good for a  57.8 rating and a 55.7 completion %.....Not nearly enough good passes to be found there.

[/quote]
How about that game AD crapped himself against that vaunted 2013 Chargers 29th ranked pass D ? 

I'm starting to believe you leave stuff out of these debates because you're legitimately insane. You clearly have an agenda.


I will take AJ McCarron's resume with 4 total starts, 2 of which were down to the wire against the Superbowl Champion Broncos and their excellent D at Denver on Monday Night Football, and against the Steelers in the playoffs against Andy Dalton's ability to perform in those same pressure situations....... And call them about the same. Which, to me says 2 things...

1: Around the QB and on D the Bengals are supremely talented all over the field. Enough so to keep every game close.
2: That AJ McCarron's 1st 4 starts have him as far along as AD looked by his 4th complete season - and with an incredibly similar skill set, frankly.

^ I will bet on those two things and trade AD for a high draft pick or two, and use AD's money to sign an impact FA or two now while letting McCarron develop into as good or better than Dalton. He's similar, and that's what the number have shown.


To the brain dead, mouth breathing homers pointing at McCarron's fumbles in the playoffs... Cute how you brush aside and excuse Dalton's 1 TD to 9 turnover ratio (I didn't even bother adding in fumbles not lost because that would be rubbing your face in it) in his 4 playoff games, but bang a drum over a guy's 4th career start and his 1 INT & 1 lost fumble.... Even though the game was WON until a player NOT the QB coughed it up. McCarron played CLUTCH when he needed to while your boy Dalton poops his pants in those situations 9 times out of 10. He literally stinks up the place. And, you're fine with it. Why? Because you're scared of change? Because you own a jersey or he said hi to your kid at training camp? 

Sorry, but when I saw AJ McCarron play the Broncos on the road on Monday night football and compared that to AD filling his pants at home on Monday night football against the Texans it sold me. If Dalton doesn't fold like a lawn chair that game the Bengals would have ended up the #1 seed in the AFC with a bye. Instead, he had a passer rating of 61 and threw an INT while putting up an embarrassing 6 points.... at home.

To the guy saying AD hasn't had a chance in the payoffs in the 3rd quarter.... You must have just become a fan in 2014. Because in 2013 AD had the lead going into the 3rd and then turned it over 3 straight possessions to lose the game.

You homers with AD's nuts on your chin need to rinse and floss after you wake up. He had a great 8 game run and then the clock struck midnight and he turned back into a pumpkin.

[Housh]

I love how the thread right under this is caking us to move on from you

I personally love your posts. Good for a laugh

[jfkbengals]

How about that game AD crapped himself against that vaunted 2013 Chargers 29th ranked pass D ? 

I'm starting to believe you leave stuff out of these debates because you're legitimately insane. You clearly have an agenda.


I will take AJ McCarron's resume with 4 total starts, 2 of which were down to the wire against the Superbowl Champion Broncos and their excellent D at Denver on Monday Night Football, and against the Steelers in the playoffs against Andy Dalton's ability to perform in those same pressure situations....... And call them about the same. Which, to me says 2 things...

1: Around the QB and on D the Bengals are supremely talented all over the field. Enough so to keep every game close.
2: That AJ McCarron's 1st 4 starts have him as far along as AD looked by his 4th complete season - and with an incredibly similar skill set, frankly.

^ I will bet on those two things and trade AD for a high draft pick or two, and use AD's money to sign an impact FA or two now while letting McCarron develop into as good or better than Dalton. He's similar, and that's what the number have shown.


To the brain dead, mouth breathing homers pointing at McCarron's fumbles in the playoffs... Cute how you brush aside and excuse Dalton's 1 TD to 9 turnover ratio (I didn't even bother adding in fumbles not lost because that would be rubbing your face in it) in his 4 playoff games, but bang a drum over a guy's 4th career start and his 1 INT & 1 lost fumble.... Even though the game was WON until a player NOT the QB coughed it up. McCarron played CLUTCH when he needed to while your boy Dalton poops his pants in those situations 9 times out of 10. He literally stinks up the place. And, you're fine with it. Why? Because you're scared of change? Because you own a jersey or he said hi to your kid at training camp? 

Sorry, but when I saw AJ McCarron play the Broncos on the road on Monday night football and compared that to AD filling his pants at home on Monday night football against the Texans it sold me. If Dalton doesn't fold like a lawn chair that game the Bengals would have ended up the #1 seed in the AFC with a bye. Instead, he had a passer rating of 61 and threw an INT while putting up an embarrassing 6 points.... at home.

To the guy saying AD hasn't had a chance in the payoffs in the 3rd quarter.... You must have just become a fan in 2014. Because in 2013 AD had the lead going into the 3rd and then turned it over 3 straight possessions to lose the game.

You homers with AD's nuts on your chin need to rinse and floss after you wake up. He had a great 8 game run and then the clock struck midnight and he turned back into a pumpkin.
[/quote]

The same game we won the year before under Dalton?

[Element]

Fake lawyer Jim, why do you make the most dumbest threads 5 times a week?

I know this is gonna be hard for you since you are on this site more then anything, but just take a break from this site for a week so we can enjoy good threads again

['E']

Do you think he might mention that under Dalton we only got 3.4 yards per carry but Dalton led us to 4.6 yards per play, while McCarron had a running game averaging 3.8 yards per carry but only mustered 4.1 yards per play?

The big question is, what was their records playing the entire 60 minutes?

Andy, 1-0
AJ, 0-1
[/quote]

In regards to your per play numbers, I would attribute Daltons higher number to the fact that a more conservative game was called for the inexperienced McCarron, probably mainly due to the more difficult to pass in rainy playing conditions.

As for your 60 minute records....

Andy cashed in on the gift that Pac Man gave him

Pac Man threw out the gift that A.J. gave him. (yes I know Hill fumbled it away, but Pac made it worse and it's just more poetic this way)

[fredtoast]

How about that game AD crapped himself against that vaunted 2013 Chargers 29th ranked pass D ? 

I'm starting to believe you leave stuff out of these debates because you're legitimately insane. You clearly have an agenda.


I will take AJ McCarron's resume with 4 total starts, 2 of which were down to the wire against the Superbowl Champion Broncos and their excellent D at Denver on Monday Night Football, and against the Steelers in the playoffs against Andy Dalton's ability to perform in those same pressure situations....... And call them about the same. Which, to me says 2 things...

1: Around the QB and on D the Bengals are supremely talented all over the field. Enough so to keep every game close.
2: That AJ McCarron's 1st 4 starts have him as far along as AD looked by his 4th complete season - and with an incredibly similar skill set, frankly.

^ I will bet on those two things and trade AD for a high draft pick or two, and use AD's money to sign an impact FA or two now while letting McCarron develop into as good or better than Dalton. He's similar, and that's what the number have shown.


To the brain dead, mouth breathing homers pointing at McCarron's fumbles in the playoffs... Cute how you brush aside and excuse Dalton's 1 TD to 9 turnover ratio (I didn't even bother adding in fumbles not lost because that would be rubbing your face in it) in his 4 playoff games, but bang a drum over a guy's 4th career start and his 1 INT & 1 lost fumble.... Even though the game was WON until a player NOT the QB coughed it up. McCarron played CLUTCH when he needed to while your boy Dalton poops his pants in those situations 9 times out of 10. He literally stinks up the place. And, you're fine with it. Why? Because you're scared of change? Because you own a jersey or he said hi to your kid at training camp? 

Sorry, but when I saw AJ McCarron play the Broncos on the road on Monday night football and compared that to AD filling his pants at home on Monday night football against the Texans it sold me. If Dalton doesn't fold like a lawn chair that game the Bengals would have ended up the #1 seed in the AFC with a bye. Instead, he had a passer rating of 61 and threw an INT while putting up an embarrassing 6 points.... at home.

To the guy saying AD hasn't had a chance in the payoffs in the 3rd quarter.... You must have just become a fan in 2014. Because in 2013 AD had the lead going into the 3rd and then turned it over 3 straight possessions to lose the game.

You homers with AD's nuts on your chin need to rinse and floss after you wake up. He had a great 8 game run and then the clock struck midnight and he turned back into a pumpkin.
[/quote]




Yeah, this is all so plain to see.  i guess that is why every NFL expert everywhere is calling for the bengals to dump Dalton in favor of McCarron.  Oh wait, they aren't.  in fact not a single one is saying the.  But we should just ignore all these professionsals and listen to the burger flippers living in their mothers basement who are so embarrassed about how wrong they were about Dalton for years that they still can't be man enough to admit they were wrong.

Because after Andy's "8 game run" was over he posted a 100 passer rating against the #8 pass defense on the road IN PRIME TIME just to see the defense give the gamne away in the final minute (just like happened to Mccarron in the playoffs).  

Then he posted a 115 rating against the Rams.

then he posted a 146 rating against the Browns.

And Dalton was not the one who "filled his pants" against the Texans.  That was Tyler Eifert.  But I guess your mancrush McCarron would have throw AND caught the ball.

[fredtoast]

(03-20-2016, 03:15 PM)Element Wrote: Fake lawyer Jim, why do you make the most dumbest threads 5 times a week?

I know this is gonna be hard for you since you are on this site more then anything, but just take a break from this site for a week so we can enjoy good threads again

Fake Element Joe, why don't you ever make a post about football in any thread I am posting?



Oh, wait, never mind.  I know why.