All games matter...don't they?

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I just heard Jamie Dukes on NFLHQ which airs on NFL Network say "Games in November don't matter".

Are you kidding me or is it that games in November don't matter only for the Giants? Which is the team he was talking about.

I know, it's "Sports Media" and all but the question still matters, do games in November matter?

In the NFL, every game matters. Every game is huge. Every game, from week one to the Super Bowl should be treated as the biggest game to ever be played. The problem with that though is it has got to be hard to keep that intensity, emotion and motor up every single game.

For guys like Burfict, Ray Lewis and Jerry Rice, it may be easy but others it may be hard to do.

[GreenCornBengal]

It's just one of those football expressions that really aren't true at all.

It's like the statement "Games are won on 3rd down". Well, really, games are won on 1st, 2nd, 3rd AND 4th down... Even the thought that 3rd downs are more important than 1st and 2nd downs (the same argument that December games are worth more than November games) is incorrect because you do better on 3rd down depending how 1st and 2nd went... Games in December won't be important without the ones in November.

[XenoMorph]

(04-21-2016, 01:51 PM)Nebuchadnezzar Wrote: I just heard Jamie Dukes on NFLHQ which airs on NFL Network say "Games in November don't matter".

Are you kidding me or is it that games in November don't matter only for the Giants? Which is the team he was talking about.

I know, it's "Sports Media" and all but the question still matters, do games in November matter?

In the NFL, every game matters. Every game is huge. Every game, from week one to the Super Bowl should be treated as the biggest game to ever be played. The problem with that though is it has got to be hard to keep that intensity, emotion and motor up every single game.

For guys like Burfict, Ray Lewis and Jerry Rice, it may be easy but others it may be hard to do.

they all matter but november games matter more or less depending on your september/october record....

but yeah every game matters cause that 1 win/loss anywhere down the line could be the game that makes or breaks your postseason or seeding.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-21-2016, 02:03 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: It's just one of those football expressions that really aren't true at all.

It's like the statement "Games are won on 3rd down". Well, really, games are won on 1st, 2nd, 3rd AND 4th down... Even the thought that 3rd downs are more important than 1st and 2nd downs (the same argument that December games are worth more than November games) is incorrect because you do better on 3rd down depending how 1st and 2nd went... Games in December won't be important without the ones in November.

I get what you're saying and I definitely agree that what you do on 1st & 2nd downs has a huge affect on your 3rd downs. That said, 3rd downs are emphasized by media (and coaches) because if you don't convert, it obviously stops the drive and keeps you from scoring. Also, 3rd downs are bigger because there's more pressure and if a team keeps converting 3rd downs, it can really wear out a defense and break their will.

Just think about how it feels as a fan to watch Ben escape a sack and convert 3rd down after 3rd down. Now imagine how the players feel.

All games do matter for the standings, but there is obviously more pressure (for good teams) to win in December. You have more division games then, and often times there's more pressure in those games because teams realize the division or the top seeds are 1 win or 1 loss away.

Pressure just builds as the season progresses and it culminates with the playoffs.

[fredtoast]

Here is the context.  Jamie was talking about how Eli Manning was a sure fire Hall of fame QB because he has played well in the playoffs.  Another commentator mentioned that games in November count also (Eli only has 6 winning seasons in his 11 year career and only made the playoffs 5 times), and Dukes said that playoff games are all that matter.  Then the other guy said "You have to get there."

Dukes was also trying to say that Eli was better than Roethlisberger because Ben was just "along for the ride" in his first Super Bowl run.   I think this is BS.  As much as I hate the Steelers I have to say that Ben is much better than Eli.

[GreenCornBengal]

(04-21-2016, 02:17 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I get what you're saying and I definitely agree that what you do on 1st & 2nd downs has a huge affect on your 3rd downs. That said, 3rd downs are emphasized by media (and coaches) because if you don't convert, it obviously stops the drive and keeps you from scoring. Also, 3rd downs are bigger because there's more pressure and if a team keeps converting 3rd downs, it can really wear out a defense and break their will.

Just think about how it feels as a fan to watch Ben escape a sack and convert 3rd down after 3rd down. Now imagine how the players feel.

All games do matter for the standings, but there is obviously more pressure (for good teams) to win in December. You have more division games then, and often times there's more pressure in those games because teams realize the division or the top seeds are 1 win or 1 loss away.



and P.S. if the reason JD said that was to make Eli seem better than Big Ben, sad. Big Ben much better than Eli.
Pressure just builds as the season progresses and it culminates with the playoffs.

I agreed with you that 3rd downs are the most important but I recently started following a bunch of sports statistic companies and one of them posted this interesting thing that said

"1st down efficiency is more highly correlated to scoring than 2nd or 3rd down. 40%+ of football takes place on 1st down."

I agree with you 3rd downs probably effect the game more with the momentum swings and psychological part of the game, for sure. but I did find that tidbit of info about 1st downs and scoring interesting. Then again, more 3rd down effectiveness leads to more first downs... They play hand in hand really.

Just like the games. Gotta play well in November and finish in December. I think we are all in agreement here lol

[Benton]

(04-21-2016, 02:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Dukes was also trying to say that Eli was better than Roethlisberger because Ben was just "along for the ride" in his first Super Bowl run.   I think this is BS.  As much as I hate the Steelers I have to say that Ben is much better than Eli.

Agreed, and that was a dumb comment by Dukes. Eli is along for the ride in every regular season game. He's a good QB, but I don't think there are a lot of seasons where you point to Eli and say, "Man, if it wasn't for him, the Giants would've stunk." Ben's had a few of those years. And he's the difference in a lot of games.


On the OP, it depends. If you're ATL or the Colts or (for a lot of years) the Pats, you're divisions are so weak, games in November really don't mean anything. If you're getting five wins off divisional opponents, you're getting to the playoffs, even if you've only got an 8-8 record. Dallas is hit and miss, the Eagles have had some rebuilding years and Washington has been Washington, they've had two good seasons since Snyder bought the team. So, yeah, for New York, November doesn't matter. At worse, you go 3-3 with your division and you're still in the running for a division championship.

For divisions that don't stink, every week matters.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-21-2016, 03:16 PM)Benton Wrote: Agreed, and that was a dumb comment by Dukes. Eli is along for the ride in every regular season game. He's a good QB, but I don't think there are a lot of seasons where you point to Eli and say, "Man, if it wasn't for him, the Giants would've stunk." Ben's had a few of those years. And he's the difference in a lot of games.


On the OP, it depends. If you're ATL or the Colts or (for a lot of years) the Pats, you're divisions are so weak, games in November really don't mean anything. If you're getting five wins off divisional opponents, you're getting to the playoffs, even if you've only got an 8-8 record. Dallas is hit and miss, the Eagles have had some rebuilding years and Washington has been Washington, they've had two good seasons since Snyder bought the team. So, yeah, for New York, November doesn't matter. At worse, you go 3-3 with your division and you're still in the running for a division championship.

For divisions that don't stink, every week matters.

Eli has been pretty overrated through the years and he's had some pretty awful seasons, but I can't agree with the bolded statement. The last time the Giants won the SB, the Giants made the playoffs with a 9-7 record and you could easily argue that Eli was their MVP with 4933 yards and 29 TDs. He's had some really great years in addition to the bad ones.

Honestly I'd give Ben the slight edge, but if you swapped Ben for Eli at the beginning of their careers, I think the Steelers have just as many titles. Ben has never carried the Steelers anywhere since that defense fell off. He's put up some solid stats, but they've "won" 1 playoff game from 2011-present and that one had to be gift wrapped. Imo, Ben is still living off his SB reputation just as much as Eli.

[XenoMorph]

(04-21-2016, 04:20 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Eli has been pretty overrated through the years and he's had some pretty awful seasons, but I can't agree with the bolded statement. The last time the Giants won the SB, the Giants made the playoffs with a 9-7 record and you could easily argue that Eli was their MVP with 4933 yards and 29 TDs. He's had some really great years in addition to the bad ones.

Honestly I'd give Ben the slight edge, but if you swapped Ben for Eli at the beginning of their careers, I think the Steelers have just as many titles. Ben has never carried the Steelers anywhere since that defense fell off. He's put up some solid stats, but they've "won" 1 playoff game from 2011-present and that one had to be gift wrapped. Imo, Ben is still living off his SB reputation just as much as Eli.

league has proven those rings = $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ and benefit of doubt for most of the rest of your career.

[Bengalzona]

All games matter. IMO.

[Benton]

(04-21-2016, 04:20 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Eli has been pretty overrated through the years and he's had some pretty awful seasons, but I can't agree with the bolded statement. The last time the Giants won the SB, the Giants made the playoffs with a 9-7 record and you could easily argue that Eli was their MVP with 4933 yards and 29 TDs. He's had some really great years in addition to the bad ones.

Honestly I'd give Ben the slight edge, but if you swapped Ben for Eli at the beginning of their careers, I think the Steelers have just as many titles. Ben has never carried the Steelers anywhere since that defense fell off. He's put up some solid stats, but they've "won" 1 playoff game from 2011-present and that one had to be gift wrapped. Imo, Ben is still living off his SB reputation just as much as Eli.

I dunno, I just can't buy into him as an elite QB. It's the Rex Grossman effect: the guy puts up a 120 QBR, 5 TDs/0 INTs one week, has a 30 QBR, 0 TD/5 INTs the next against competition that's not much difference than he just faced. Those aren't specific numbers, it's just that unexpected swing. To me, Eli is only as good as his line and receivers and how well the team is firing.

Ben isn't the kind of guy to have a type of game where Eli's on, but I don't think his bad games are nearly as bad. When the rest of the team is sucking, I don't think Ben is always sucking along with them. He's got off games, buthis good games are as dependent on the team.

When I'm watching a game and the Giants are clicking, I'm not thinking about Eli, I'm thinking about their receivers and (in the past) their defense.

[NATI BENGALS]

Jamie Dukes makes me change the channel. And Nate Burlson should not be in a profession that involves people hearing his raspy annoying voice.

They need to cut those two

[ElkValleyBengal]

Eli is not a Hall of Fame caliber QB, and really not that close to it. Yet he's going to get in, and unfortunately possibly be a first ballot guy, simply because he's the QB of a New York team that won two Super Bowls. I will give him credit for the excellent play he had during those two postseason runs, but a handful of games does not a career make. Honest to God, any biases aside Boomer Esiason was a better QB than Eli Manning, and Boomer will never get in.

[jowczarski]

Surprised a former player would say that. Go 0-3 with just three games left after that is kind of ... odd to say. It's wrong, too. Maybe going 1-2, 0-2 vs. non-divisional/non-conference opponents early can be made up but not Nov. when it's likely including a conference and divisional game...

[Thundercloud]

Jamie Dukes is no commentator. He constantly does this kind of stuff, and like somebody else said, seeing him makes me quickly move on.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-21-2016, 06:41 PM)Benton Wrote: I dunno, I just can't buy into him as an elite QB. It's the Rex Grossman effect: the guy puts up a 120 QBR, 5 TDs/0 INTs one week, has a 30 QBR, 0 TD/5 INTs the next against competition that's not much difference than he just faced. Those aren't specific numbers, it's just that unexpected swing. To me, Eli is only as good as his line and receivers and how well the team is firing.

Ben isn't the kind of guy to have a type of game where Eli's on, but I don't think his bad games are nearly as bad. When the rest of the team is sucking, I don't think Ben is always sucking along with them. He's got off games, buthis good games are as dependent on the team.

When I'm watching a game and the Giants are clicking, I'm not thinking about Eli, I'm thinking about their receivers and (in the past) their defense.

I'm not sure I buy either one being a truly elite QB. Maybe Ben is a smidge closer, but for all the hype over the Steelers passing game last season, Ben only threw 21 TDs to 16 INTs. I don't think Eli's inconsistency is game to game. It's more season to season. He'll have an elite 4500 yard, 30 TD, 12 INT year, then follow it by throwing 20+ INTs the next year.

While Eli hasn't been as consistent year to year as Ben (who has had some "meh" seasons himself), the thing he has on Ben is that he actually carried the Giants through the playoffs. Sure, their defense was great in the SB runs, but Eli himself was lights out. Ben has had some pretty rough playoff games and Super Bowls. Fwiw, if I'm picking between the Steelers' D and the Giants' D in the SB years, I'd take the Steelers every time.

Eli has taken some pretty mediocre looking 9-7 teams to the SB, whereas Ben hasn't been back since the Steelers started looking like a normal team.

As for weapons, I think it's a push. Eli has Beckham now, but he's made names out of guys like Hakeem Nicks, Steve Smith, Cruz, etc. Ben has had Antonio Brown, Ward, Heath, Mike Wallace, etc. I don't feel like Ben "made" those guys.

[muskiesfan]

All games count unless you're Andy Dalton. Just ask around on these very boards. Dalton gets beat up by the national media and his own fans. Bengals fans actually want to trade their franchise QB and let McCarron start because Dalton hasn't won a playoff game yet. Once he does win one, expect to be inundated with reasons that he had no part in the win.

[ItsOdellThurman]

In the NFL, every game matters.

I would argue that in MLB, NBA and NHL, all games "matter", but certain outcomes during the regular season are irrelevant.

Evidence? Teams in those sports schedule days where they don't play their best. In the NFL, if a player is healthy, he is playing.

[PV Bengal]

(04-22-2016, 10:30 AM)ItsOdellThurman Wrote: In the NFL, every game matters.

I agree. However, IMHO, the December games "matter" the most from the standpoint that they are the games that psychologically get you ready for the playoffs. 

In other words, with all other things being equal, I believe that a team with an 8-4 record that wins all 4 December games has a "mental edge" over another team that is 12-0 going into December and proceeds to lose all 4 December games.

[Benton]

(04-21-2016, 11:54 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: While Eli hasn't been as consistent year to year as Ben (who has had some "meh" seasons himself), the thing he has on Ben is that he actually carried the Giants through the playoffs. Sure, their defense was great in the SB runs, but Eli himself was lights out. Ben has had some pretty rough playoff games and Super Bowls. Fwiw, if I'm picking between the Steelers' D and the Giants' D in the SB years, I'd take the Steelers every time.

Eli has taken some pretty mediocre looking 9-7 teams to the SB, whereas Ben hasn't been back since the Steelers started looking like a normal team.

 

it may not be a fair comparison, but I always thought it was the opposite with the Mannings. Eli seems like regular seasons are just an inconvenience, but makes every play count in the postseason. Peyton played a lot of games at a very high level, but always seemed just a little off in the post season.

Granted a lot of that were their respective teams for the highs and lows.